Ask About Islam 5

[subxone]

Hi Kurd4Evah

My last thread got deleted I think (cant find it in my forum posts section), I was discussing with you and NRG about the topic of beards and Islam. NRG mentioned that everything Muhammad ordered was inspired by Allah. I found this interesting insight from Aisha, the mother of all the believers in regards to situational scripture.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311 :

Narrated by Aisha
I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."

My point is the following: Even people close to Muhammad (Aisha his fav wife) knew that Muhammad had the convenience of situation scripture which benefited him only. In the case above its in regards to sex and how many women Muhammad was allow to penetrate.

[kassit]

Salamou Alaykoum

Question 1: I have little to no knowledge about Palestine and holy lands, what is it about Palestine that makes it holy?

Wa 'alaikumu as-salamu wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

Moses (pbuh) is quoted saying in the Qur'an:

"O my people! Enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and turn not back; for then you will be returned as losers.'' (5:21)

What makes Palestine, or the land that Allah gave the children of Israel, holy is the fact Allah has made it holy.

[subxone]

Wa 'alaikumu as-salamu wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

Moses (pbuh) is quoted saying in the Qur'an:

"O my people! Enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and turn not back; for then you will be returned as losers.'' (5:21)

What makes Palestine, or the land that Allah gave the children of Israel, holy is the fact Allah has made it holy.

Are the "children of Israel" muslim or jewish also when allah has assigned this land to x people what rights do y people to take it from those that allah gave to?

[Cheetohsbrah]

Is it acceptable to beat your wife if she makes you angry? (srs)

[Kurd4evah]

Hi Kurd4Evah

My last thread got deleted I think (cant find it in my forum posts section), I was discussing with you and NRG about the topic of beards and Islam. NRG mentioned that everything Muhammad ordered was inspired by Allah. I found this interesting insight from Aisha, the mother of all the believers in regards to situational scripture.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311 :

Narrated by Aisha
I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."

My point is the following: Even people close to Muhammad (Aisha his fav wife) knew that Muhammad had the convenience of situation scripture which benefited him only. In the case above its in regards to sex and how many women Muhammad was allow to penetrate.

How does this relate to the topic of the beard?

Anyway, for the topic you brought up, you need to look at more than one thing. You say they were just used, but look at the narration of his pbuh wives and what they thought.

No the scripture did not benefit him (at least in the worldly sense), prior to prophethood he was a Shepard, did some trade here and there a normal life you could call.

Than during Prophethood ( which you are claiming benefited him) was when he went through the hardest trials and tribulations. That is a norm for any Prophet (pubt), they go through the hardest trials.

Here is a pdf on the life of Muhammad (pbuh)
http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_...led_Nectar.pdf

Is it acceptable to beat your wife if she makes you angry? (srs)

No. You'd be sinful for it.

[chashma1]

Idk why, but i really liked this piece i read recently in the economist.

http://www.economist.com/news/books-...-out-chrysalis

[subxone]

Than during Prophethood ( which you are claiming benefited him) was when he went through the hardest trials and tribulations. That is a norm for any Prophet (pubt), they go through the hardest trials.

Ever since our creation people have craved power and control, Muhammad was no exception.

To say his life was difficult is only factual during the initial stages when he had all but a handful of followers in Medina. Once he got an army together and had some physical strength it was a life of riches and booty.

For example dear prophet would automatically receive 20% of all booty after a raid on a town or carvan. Dear prophet would also get first picks when it came to having sex with women from towns that had been raided. In regards to sex, Allah always had Muhammads back, even going as far as allowing Muhammad unlimited number of women to penetrate while limiting his followers to 4.

I understand its not possible for you to see it through my eyes but I suggest having a touch of skepticism will blow your mind wide open to the realities of Muhammad and his religion.

[Cheetohsbrah]

If the prophet was allowed to rape women, why aren't we?

[SYRIANKID]

If the prophet was allowed to rape women, why aren't we?

Rape is forbidden in Islam, punishable by death. The Prophet (pbuh) never raped anyone.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338

[SYRIANKID]

Is it acceptable to beat your wife if she makes you angry? (srs)

Nope

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...po#post6026877

[SYRIANKID]

Does this mean the Muslim world is committing a great haram for not taking back Spain, Serbia, Croatia, Greece, India and other lands which were under the control of Muslims?

I wouldn't call it a "great haram," since people are free to worship there and aren't being killed and oppressed, unlike in Palestine which is more serious because of the brutality there.

[Cheetohsbrah]

For example dear prophet would automatically receive 20% of all booty after a raid on a town or carvan. Dear prophet would also get first picks when it came to having sex with women from towns that had been raided. In regards to sex, Allah always had Muhammads back, even going as far as allowing Muhammad unlimited number of women to penetrate while limiting his followers to 4.

This guy says Mohammed raped women.

[Kurd4evah]

Ever since our creation people have craved power and control, Muhammad was no exception.

To say his life was difficult is only factual during the initial stages when he had all but a handful of followers in Medina. Once he got an army together and had some physical strength it was a life of riches and booty.

For example dear prophet would automatically receive 20% of all booty after a raid on a town or carvan. Dear prophet would also get first picks when it came to having sex with women from towns that had been raided. In regards to sex, Allah always had Muhammads back, even going as far as allowing Muhammad unlimited number of women to penetrate while limiting his followers to 4.

I understand its not possible for you to see it through my eyes but I suggest having a touch of skepticism will blow your mind wide open to the realities of Muhammad and his religion.

You can continue day and night with these stories you hear from sites like religionofpeace.com....bring you evidence forward for everything you claimed.

There were things that were forbidden for Muhammad (pbuh) to not do and it was optional for his followers.

Again bring your evidence forward. And if you are actually interested and willing to learn, read what i linked you to and tell me if that life was a life of booty and luxuries.

Why the Prophet pbuh had more than 4 wives

[subxone]

Again bring your evidence forward. And if you are actually interested and willing to learn, read what i linked you to and tell me if that life was a life of booty and luxuries.

One battle at a time my Kurdish friend. Lets begin with booty, specifically women who were taken into slavery and raped (definition of rape is: Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent)


Sahih (meaning authentic) Bukhari 3.34.432: “Narrated Abu Saeed Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allâh's Apostle he said, "O Allâh's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allâh has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.”

First note that I'd like to share, this information comes from the same book which dictates how a Muslim is to perform their duties for example how to pray is found in this book, how to perform Hajj is found in this book, how to perform wudu is found in this book, how to circumcise and prepare before prayer is found in this book. TO say it is not genuine or false is incorrect.

Second, Muhammads soldiers come in after a battle and they are discussing the women they have captured as booty, they are debating wether or not they should ejaculate inside these captives or use a withdraw method. Muhammads first reaction was not "HOW DARE YOU RAPE THESE WOMEN THIS IS AGAINST GOD!" instead he laughs at their conraception ideas and basically says, "lol if allah wills it they'll get pregnant so go ahead boys have fun "

Sahih Muslim 8.3381: “Allâh's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about 'azl, (coitus interruptus) whereupon he said: The child does not come from all the liquid (semen) and when Allâh intends to create anything nothing can prevent it (from coming into existence).”

The above reference is from Sahih (meaning authentic) Muslim who is another gatherer of saying and doing of Muhammad. It adds validity to the quote from Bukhari.

[Alchem]

One battle at a time my Kurdish friend. Lets begin with booty, specifically women who were taken into slavery and raped (definition of rape is: Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent)


Sahih (meaning authentic) Bukhari 3.34.432: “Narrated Abu Saeed Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allâh's Apostle he said, "O Allâh's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allâh has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.”

First note that I'd like to share, this information comes from the same book which dictates how a Muslim is to perform their duties for example how to pray is found in this book, how to perform Hajj is found in this book, how to perform wudu is found in this book, how to circumcise and prepare before prayer is found in this book. TO say it is not genuine or false is incorrect.

Second, Muhammads soldiers come in after a battle and they are discussing the women they have captured as booty, they are debating wether or not they should ejaculate inside these captives or use a withdraw method. Muhammads first reaction was not "HOW DARE YOU RAPE THESE WOMEN THIS IS AGAINST GOD!" instead he laughs at their conraception ideas and basically says, "lol if allah wills it they'll get pregnant so go ahead boys have fun "

Sahih Muslim 8.3381: “Allâh's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about 'azl, (coitus interruptus) whereupon he said: The child does not come from all the liquid (semen) and when Allâh intends to create anything nothing can prevent it (from coming into existence).”

The above reference is from Sahih (meaning authentic) Muslim who is another gatherer of saying and doing of Muhammad. It adds validity to the quote from Bukhari.

But where is the part about the women not consenting?

"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

[frontofthepack]

But where is the part about the women not consenting?

"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

Another religion that deems it perfectly acceptable to own slaves, interesting. At least there were laws against raping them.

[subxone]

But where is the part about the women not consenting?

"We get female captives as our share of booty"
Captive: A person who has been taken prisoner or an animal that has been confined.

Lets not mince words here, these women were not combatants they were women minding their own business in their town when Muhammad and his thugs attacked and captured them as slaves. As for your quotation from Imam Al Shaafi'i its not pertinent to this discussion as we are talking about Muhammad and his life.

[tuved]

But where is the part about the women not consenting?

"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

This appears to be applicable for slaves acquired by force, but what about those captured after war or bought with money.

[Alchem]

"We get female captives as our share of booty"
Captive: A person who has been taken prisoner or an animal that has been confined.

What's your point? she still has to consent for sex, or else it is considered rape and punishable by death.

Lets not mince words here, these women were not combatants they were women minding their own business in their town when Muhammad and his thugs attacked and captured them as slaves. As for your quotation from Imam Al Shaafi'i its not pertinent to this discussion as we are talking about Muhammad and his life.

lol women minding their own business weren't taken as captives, only women engaging in the battle field/in the army camp were.

[subxone]

What's your point? she still has to consent for sex, or else it is considered rape and punishable by death.

I'll give you some time to figure it out, put two and two together champ

lol women minding their own business weren't taken as captives, only women engaging in the battle field/in the army camp were.

Notice how he is trying to twist the story now to justify the immoral behaviour of Muhammad and his soldier, in essence your saying "chances are these women were helping the enemy so its ok for them to be raped llllloooooooooollll"

[Aguy2diefor]

I'll give you some time to figure it out, put two and two together champ


Notice how he is trying to twist the story now to justify the immoral behaviour of Muhammad and his soldier, in essence your saying "chances are these women were helping the enemy so its ok for them to be raped llllloooooooooollll"

The only one trying to twist stories is you.

[wamplex]

I'll give you some time to figure it out, put two and two together champ


Notice how he is trying to twist the story now to justify the immoral behaviour of Muhammad and his soldier, in essence your saying "chances are these women were helping the enemy so its ok for them to be raped llllloooooooooollll"

subxone, clearly he is contradicting himself, rape is rape, unless you are Alchem then rape for "enemy" women is consensual ^^

[tuved]

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/do...r_slave_girls_

Saheeh Muslim

Book 008, Number 3432:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).

So here we see that the Muslim soldiers were feeling uncomfortable with engaging in sexual intercourse with women who were already married. However, the verse was revealed saying that it is permissible to engage in sexual intercourse with slave girls even if they are married.

Imam Al Tabari in his commentary on Surah 4:24 cites several of the companions and second generation Muslims stating that the marriage of a woman is annulled after she has been captured and made a slave.

[subxone]

subxone, clearly he is contradicting himself, rape is rape, unless you are Alchem then rape for "enemy" women is consensual ^^

The dilemma Muslims face is justifying Muhammads actions, from the cradle to the grave they are thought that Muhammad was the perfect example to mankind, and any criticism of him is akin to apostasy.

[SYRIANKID]

For example dear prophet would automatically receive 20% of all booty after a raid on a town or carvan. Dear prophet would also get first picks when it came to having sex with women from towns that had been raided. In regards to sex, Allah always had Muhammads back, even going as far as allowing Muhammad unlimited number of women to penetrate while limiting his followers to 4.

That's not true, the Prophet (pbuh) (and any Caliph/Ameer) has the right to distribute 20% of war booty, the other 80% goes to direct participants. The 20% goes to poor people who weren't directly involved in the warfare.

20% of all war booty must be a lot of war booty, considering all the battles that took place. It should be very easy for you to find evidence that the Prophet (pbuh) kept all this for himself as opposed to all the evidence that it was distributed.

[subxone]

That's not true, the Prophet (pbuh) (and any Caliph/Ameer) has the right to distribute 20% of war booty, the other 80% goes to direct participants. The 20% goes to poor people who weren't directly involved in the warfare.

20% of all war booty must be a lot of war booty, considering all the battles that took place. It should be very easy for you to find evidence that the Prophet (pbuh) kept all this for himself as opposed to all the evidence that it was distributed.

Thanks for acknowledging the fact that Muhammad saw it lawful to take other people property and in most cases captives after a battle. Serbs did exactly the same thing to Muslims during the Bosnian war. You know Ratko Mladic and Muhammad share much in common.

[Alchem]

I'll give you some time to figure it out, put two and two together champ

Show me the evidence we Islam condones rape of female POWS/Slaves.
Here's my evidence that it doesn't:

In an authentic narration from Sunan Al Bayhaqi, Volume 2, page 363, Hadith no. 18685 we read the following story: Abu al-Hussain bin al-Fadhl al-Qatan narrated from Abdullah bin Jaffar bin Darestweh from Yaqub bin Sufyan from al-Hassab bin Rabee from Abdullah bin al-Mubarak from Kahmas from Harun bin Al-Asam who said: Umar bin al-Khatab may Allah be pleased with him sent Khalid bin al-Walid in an army, hence Khalid sent Dharar bin al-Auwzwar in a squadron and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Bani Asad. They then captured a pretty bride, Dharar liked her hence he asked his companions to grant her to him and they did so. He then had sexual intercourse with her, when he completed his mission he felt guilty, and went to Khalid and told him about what he did. Khalid said: 'I permit you and made it lawful to you.' He said: 'No not until you write a message to Umar'. (Then they sent a message to Umar) and Umar answered that he (Dharar) should be stoned. By the time Umar's message was delivered, Dharar was dead. (Khalid) said: 'Allah didn't want to disgrace Dharar'

Another argument against your position: Islam forbids causing harm to slaves. Rape is a form of harm. Hence raping slaves is forbidden. Evidence proving harming slaves is not allowed:

Saheeh Muslim Book 015, Number 4082: Hilal b. Yasaf reported that a person got angry and slapped his slave-girl. Thereupon Suwaid b. Muqarrin said to him: You could find no other part (to slap) but the prominent part of her face. See I was one of the seven sons of Muqarrin, and we had but only one slave-girl. The youngest of us slapped her, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded us to set her free.

Muslim Book 015, Number 4086 Abu Mas'ud al-Badri reported: "I was beating my slave with a whip when I heard a voice behind me: Understand, Abu Masud; but I did not recognise the voice due to intense anger. He (Abu Mas'ud) reported: As he came near me (I found) that he was the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he was saying: Bear in mind, Abu Mas'ud; bear in mind. Abu Mas'ud. He (Aba Maslad) said: threw the whip from my hand. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Bear in mind, Abu Mas'ud; verily Allah has more dominance upon you than you have upon your slave. I (then) said: I would never beat my servant in future.

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29 Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.

Notice how he is trying to twist the story now to justify the immoral behaviour of Muhammad and his soldier, in essence your saying "chances are these women were helping the enemy so its ok for them to be raped llllloooooooooollll"

No, I'm said only women engaging in combat/were in the army camp were taken as POW/Slaves. Rape is forbidden in Islam, period.

[subxone]

Here's my evidence:
.

Your evidence is null since Muhammad's actions (as found in the authentic books of Bukhari and Muslim) show he had no issues with his men ejaculating in female (and possibly male) captives after a battle. You have already justified this by stating these captives helped the enemy so its ok to rape them.

[Alchem]

Your evidence is null since Muhammad's actions (as found in the authentic books of Bukhari and Muslim) show he had no issues with his men ejaculating in female (and possibly male) captives after a battle. You have already justified this by stating these captives helped the enemy so its ok to rape them.

Where is the part were the female captives didn't consent tho? the critical part of your evidence is missing. My evidence shows without a doubt that rape is forbidden. I can't believe I have to explain this to a rational human being.

[subxone]

Where is the part were the female captives didn't consent tho? the critical part of your evidence is missing. My evidence shows without a doubt that rape is forbidden. I can't believe I have to explain this to a rational human being.

Lets me put the two pieces together for you. A Christian army comes to Egypt and beseiges your town. Your team loses and the Christian army takes captive all who have survived, this includes your mother, father and sister. A Christian soldier then decided to take your sister as on of their own as booty. The Christian soldier go to his general asking if he is allowed to ejaculate in your sisters vagina. The Christian general then laughs and says "if its gods will for her to be pregnant then she will lol"

No disrespect to you or your family but I had to make it personal for you to understand.