Mark Rippetoe Squat Philosophy

[marshalljman]

According to Mark Rippetoe, doing low bar squats and front squats is more advantageous to olympic lifters performance that high bar and front squats. He says that low bar squats bring in the posterior chain and mimic the geometry of the pulls from the floor. As a powerlifter to olympic lifter convert, I would appreciate some advice on which type I should choose and why?

[slowman41]

Mark Rippetoe also does not coach any elite olympic lifters, and when he had a lifter who made it to nationals, he didn't even bother going.

Mark has also flat out said he thinks the old soviet training manuals (the books on which titans like klokov, chigishev, etc were crafted with) are wrong.

Mark would have you deadlift up to 2x weekly, when elite level powerlifters don't even deadlift this frequently.

While he may know about getting people strong, he isn't the best source for olympic lifting.

Personally, I found that the low bar back squat fatigues the lower back and posterior chain to the point where recovery time is required, where as the high bar back squat does not, and as such athletes can train more often, which is required to make progress at an advanced level. Also, the flexibilty required/gained from high bar squatting carries over directly to olympic lifting. Take it as you wish, but a look around at the greatest international athletes training shows none of them employ the low bar squat.

[NorwichGrad]

Mark Rippetoe also does not coach any elite olympic lifters, and when he had a lifter who made it to nationals, he didn't even bother going.

Mark has also flat out said he thinks the old soviet training manuals (the books on which titans like klokov, chigishev, etc were crafted with) are wrong.

Mark would have you deadlift up to 2x weekly, when elite level powerlifters don't even deadlift this frequently.

While he may know about getting people strong, he isn't the best source for olympic lifting.

Personally, I found that the low bar back squat fatigues the lower back and posterior chain to the point where recovery time is required, where as the high bar back squat does not, and as such athletes can train more often, which is required to make progress at an advanced level. Also, the flexibilty required/gained from high bar squatting carries over directly to olympic lifting. Take it as you wish, but a look around at the greatest international athletes training shows none of them employ the low bar squat.

+1^^

Also, his method of teaching the 'jump, shrug and catch' messes up lots of newbies. IF you want to get strong, get his Starting Strength book. If you want to be an Oly lifter, get a qualified coach.

[Torrtrefireto]

When i did the olympic lifts I squatted low bar

I think it was one of the many mistakes I made

There's a reason the top guys all squat high bar. Solid as his routine is for begginer strength gains, Rippetoes fame and following exceed the appropriateness of his recomendations (I put this as mildly as I could becuase I got neg trained the last time I said anything non-positive about Rippetoe)

[marshalljman]

Let's say I wanted to excel in the olympic lifts as well as some of the powerlifts( squat, deadlift). I understand the reasons why high bar is better, but how much will doing low bar squats hinder my progress in the olympic lifts as long as I hit the front and overhead squats hard?

[ManWithCurls]

Let's say I wanted to excel in the olympic lifts as well as some of the powerlifts( squat, deadlift). I understand the reasons why high bar is better, but how much will doing low bar squats hinder my progress in the olympic lifts as long as I hit the front and overhead squats hard?

It doesn't. So long as you are doing the purpose of the movement, to strengthen the muscles targeted AND work their flexibility, putting the bar low or high doesn't matter in the bigger picture.

Now, if you start doing low bar squats only hitting parallel, then that'd be another story.

[Retardo-pex]

According to Mark Rippetoe, doing low bar squats and front squats is more advantageous to olympic lifters performance that high bar and front squats. He says that low bar squats bring in the posterior chain and mimic the geometry of the pulls from the floor. As a powerlifter to olympic lifter convert, I would appreciate some advice on which type I should choose and why?

I recently fell into the same debate with myself. At first I "knew" that highbar low low low squatting was best for olympic lifting since it is a quad dominant lift vs the hip dominant low bar pl style squat. The more I learned from weightlifters correcting ym technique though, the more it sounded to me like I was almost always going to be in the position of a low bar powerlifting squat for the meat and potatoes portion of the lifts.

In my own head I was thinking " If I can overhead squat more then my heaviest snatch and front squat more then my heaviest clean, I don't see why my back squat work can't be powerlifting based to increase hip strength".

At the same time, you can see how taking the word of one strength coach over decades of trial and error could be a poor approach to training. His opinions were voiced in a thread that was criticizing American weightlifting and how we aren't on par with the rest of the weightlifting world (the assumption was that american lifters are not as strong as other country's lifters). This would make sense other then the fact that the countires that are beating us are not doing things ridiculously different then we are.

If he were to take and train a few amazing lifters with his ideas and they went on to win some olympic medals... then you would get some attention. Until that happens though its just theory which everyone is entitled to, I'm sure plenty of powerlifters scoffed at Louie Simmon's training methods until there were a bunch of 900+ squatters 700+ benchers at Westside Barbell.

[bigkarl]

I like Rippetoe, but he exceeds his bounds a lot. Especially when he talks about Weightlifting. And his crew of nuthuggers that run around on these forums telling every athlete(basically) that they should do his program make him even more annoying. But I guess you cannot blame him for his followers.

[marshalljman]

I could always power squat way more than high bar, I've done 290 lb.x5 power squat and 225 lb. x 4 high bar. I don't know if that is a typical gap. And I always felt that I would end up front squatting more because I wasn't nailing the same exact muscles all the time.

[olyw8lifter]

I could always power squat way more than high bar, I've done 290 lb.x5 power squat and 225 lb. x 4 high bar. I don't know if that is a typical gap. And I always felt that I would end up front squatting more because I wasn't nailing the same exact muscles all the time.

I don't know about the difference between high bar numbers and low bar numbers, but there is a good thread on www.pendlayforum.com that talk about whether law-bar squatting will improve high-bar numbers or vice versa!! If you can find it, there are some things I think will help you out in determining which will be best for you. I believe that the conclusion what that high-bar squats would improve one's low-bar numbers, but not the other way around!!

There are also a couple of lifters on there that are doing a combination powerlifting and Olympic lifting routine that you may be able to ask some questions about how they manage their programs. Also, Glenn gets on there and will answer questions about this topic specifically!!

Good luck, I hope you find your answers!!

[marshalljman]

Thanks, I think I have my answers to this question now, after reading around alot. What I understand is that high bar squats seem to be the preferred method for pure olympic lifters because it more closely mimics the position of the recovery for the lifts and emphasizes the concentric movement of the oly lifts. I still don't completely understand, however, why doing front squats and overhead squats isn't sufficient for that purpose or why high bars are EXTREMELY more advantageous than PL squats.

Since, I don't plan on competing, I am just looking to enjoy my lifting and make good personal gains, I think that consistently doing front squats, overhead squats and PL squats will be plenty to accomplish those goals without being a detriment to my olympic lifts.

Back when I strictly did powerlifts, I used to do high bars all the time as an assistance lift and they definately do improve your PL squat and not the other way around. I will probably mix in high bars now for this reason and just to get the best of both worlds.

[Torrtrefireto]

Thanks, I think I have my answers to this question now, after reading around alot. What I understand is that high bar squats seem to be the preferred method for pure olympic lifters because it more closely mimics the position of the recovery for the lifts and emphasizes the concentric movement of the oly lifts. I still don't completely understand, however, why doing front squats and overhead squats isn't sufficient for that purpose or why high bars are EXTREMELY more advantageous than PL squats.

Since, I don't plan on competing, I am just looking to enjoy my lifting and make good personal gains, I think that consistently doing front squats, overhead squats and PL squats will be plenty to accomplish those goals without being a detriment to my olympic lifts.

Back when I strictly did powerlifts, I used to do high bars all the time as an assistance lift and they definately do improve your PL squat and not the other way around. I will probably mix in high bars now for this reason and just to get the best of both worlds.

I think your plan sounds reasonable. I think it depends on if you can do low bar PL squats without letting it mess with your olympic lifts. Becuase I was so conditioned to sitting back for powerlifting, when I did the OLY lifts and tried to front squat I would constantly dump the bar forward from my hips going too far back and my torso not being vertical.

If you can manage to seperate the two movement patterns and not let them interfere, it seems like you'd d ojust fine.

[gewaltiger]

seeming as you receive a clean with a very upright torso, i think i will continue to squat high bar with also an upright torso. jus' sayin

[marshalljman]

seeming as you receive a clean with a very upright torso, i think i will continue to squat high bar with also an upright torso. jus' sayin

Aren't front squats good for perfecting the upright torso??

[gewaltiger]

yes, but low bar adds more stress to lower back which is critical if you train every day

[babylover]

For the 'barbell' athlete, the type of person who genuinely want to be good in all the movements, I totally agree with low bar back squatting and Olympic front squatting as a very powerful combination.

I've only come to believe this in the past few months after being a high bar purist. Low bar squatting is one of the most underrated tools and Oly lifter neglects to use. I also think with the prevalence of shoes, all this high bar and front squatting leads to a criminal lack of posterior attention and consequent knee injuries... I learned this the hard way.

It is unfair to look to JUST what elite level lifters do, there is a level of balance, genetic and experience there that the amateur western lifter cannot replicate, even if they are very strong.

[gewaltiger]

szymon kolecki actually squats low bar, so even some elite ol'ers use low bar

[marshalljman]

yes, but low bar adds more stress to lower back which is critical if you train every day

I wish I could train that much...I train 3 times a week and squat twice. One day, fronts and the other day back squats.

[babylover]

szymon kolecki actually squats low bar, so even some elite ol'ers use low bar

There you go.

I wish I could train that much...I train 3 times a week and squat twice. One day, fronts and the other day back squats.

I do a heavy/,aximum low bar squat single every second day, and when my kee is able, I will have maximal front squats on the days between.

I agree that low bar is much more difficult to do insane frequency with, but I think there is potential application to be able to use a greater weight for greater loading without the need for as much frequency.

I personally would have no troubles front squatting heavy 3-4x a week and low barring heavy 2-3 a week, which for the western lifter with a life is about as good as it gets.

[gewaltiger]

for ol'ers consideration:
it is unnecessary to do low-bar most of the time, even though it allows you to do greater weights, because the transfer of strength from squat to classic lift often is not very close. examples of this is how elite ol'ers can backsquat 800+ but rarely train in that range because it no longer carries over to the classic lifts. so what's the sense of training an 800lb low-bar backsquat when you can only clean 500lbs BUT high-bar 700~ and it gives you less impact on your lower back? basically the appeal to low-bar is eliminated here.

[babylover]

for ol'ers consideration:
it is unnecessary to do low-bar most of the time, even though it allows you to do greater weights, because the transfer of strength from squat to classic lift often is not very close. examples of this is how elite ol'ers can backsquat 800+ but rarely train in that range because it no longer carries over to the classic lifts. so what's the sense of training an 800lb low-bar backsquat when you can only clean 500lbs BUT high-bar 700~ and it gives you less impact on your lower back? basically the appeal to low-bar is eliminated here.

I have 4 years in Olympic lifting before injury forced me to switch to powerlifting. Everything you have said here, I used to say. We won't know until we start seeing more Oly lifters doing low bar and see what the effect is.

You keep drawing the comparison to elite level guys, this is NOT applicable at all to 80% of the training population. Very different stories when you are talking about dudes with near perfect CNS activation and are cleaning 500.

I see a striking prevalence of tiny hamstring amongst Oly weightlifters that aren't elite level. This is a combination of heeled shoes, narrow stances ad a lack of posterior work. There also seems to be an undeniable fact in amateur weightlifting... everyone is weak, too weak for the their relative strength.

I am not arguing one way or another, simply pointing out there are some experiences to be shared and things that have not been tried. I recently got a 7.5kg clean increase in a month out of one of the girls who trains at my facility by getting her to squat barefoot. The soreness she experienced from getting out of the shoes in her back and hips was unbelievable, but it made her much stronger.

[gewaltiger]

i am referencing elite lifters because their technique is already perfected, so they are a good "control".
you cant really argue that low-bar will help improve amateur lifters classic lift #'s because their technique is still flawed.
i agree it helps with overall strength, especially posterior chain work.
and that's what this thread is about i suppose,
but im throwing my 2 cents in that it will not impact the classic lifts themselves, as this is the oly section and not the pl section.

[disgorge89]

The only situation I would ever use use low bar squats in is with a lifter who could stand up with more than he could rack with AND almost never lost cleans forward. Low-Bar squats will marginally help you pull more, but help you with standing up slightly less. If you do low bar squats for olympic lifting, the stance and depth should be the same as if you were high bar squatting.

[CelticTheTruth]

Rippetoe is known to be quite a bad source for knowledge about olympic weightlifting.

[Torrtrefireto]

The only situation I would ever use use low bar squats in is with a lifter who could stand up with more than he could rack with AND almost never lost cleans forward. Low-Bar squats will marginally help you pull more, but help you with standing up slightly less. If you do low bar squats for olympic lifting, the stance and depth should be the same as if you were high bar squatting.

THat is another reason why I don't like lowbar squatting for olympic lift's idea

low bar plus full (or atg if you want) squats is a lot harder to keep in good position than high bar full squats. With the low bar going beyond PL depth almost always causes major rounding

[marshalljman]

I ended up doing low bars today and they felt great. I do notice, however, like some of you mention, it does fatigue my back more.

[guest89]

Rippetoes theory on Oly lifting is just that, theory. He and an Oly coach from Hawaii are talking about getting together to try to get an Oly program going (The idea is Rip can make them strong, the other guy can make them good Oly lifters).


Rippetoe excels at training novice/intermediate lifters, but he has yet to produce any elite level lifters (especially weightlifters).


I like Rippetoe and all, but if I wanted to be a weightlifter I wouldn't be training under a powerlifter/someone who trains people for strength...

[ViKtoricus]

According to Mark Rippetoe, doing low bar squats and front squats is more advantageous to olympic lifters performance that high bar and front squats. He says that low bar squats bring in the posterior chain and mimic the geometry of the pulls from the floor. As a powerlifter to olympic lifter convert, I would appreciate some advice on which type I should choose and why?

Mark Rippetoe is a wise trainer for people who are looking to be generally stronger. He is NOT a qualified, olympic weightlifting coach. His knowledge is better placed somewhere else.

Stick to what works. And what works with olympic weightlifting is the traditional, high-bar squat.

[slowman41]

szymon kolecki actually squats low bar, so even some elite ol'ers use low bar

Kolecki squats "high bar", he just holds the bar lower on his back. By that, I mean he is squatting normally, not with the mechanics that rippetoe teaches.

[DFS200]

Came in here expecting this "philosophy". Do oly style like all the world class lifters have been doing forever.