Question about protein absorption

[cjc651]

Hey guys,

So I was having a discussion with one of my friends who has been bodybuilding for about 4 years and is in great shape, I am about 3 months into my bodybuilding career at the moment. Anyways we were talking about meal frequency and he told me you can only absorb 24-30g of protein at one time. This makes sense, I guess but most of the educated people on this forum have told me meal frequency has little to no effect on diet, as long as you hit your macros. It seems like common sense that spreading out your protein intake vs eating it all in a small period of time would be better for absorption but that's just my gut instinct.

I'm just curious about this because I just ate my first meal of the day (on IF) which was a protein shake (35g protein), 3 eggs(18g protein), glass of milk (10g protein) and some toast (2g protein) and 3 strips of bacon (16g protein), that's a total of 81 grams which is much more than my friend advocated could be absorbed by our bodies in one sitting. I know he most likely just heard that from a buddy or some dip**** working at GNC but if anyone could give me an answer I would really appreciate it.

[WonderPug]

Anyways we were talking about meal frequency and he told me you can only absorb 24-30g of protein at one time.

That's utter nonsense.

Obviously, those individuals don't understand even the most basic concepts about nutrition.

A lot of people take for granted what the human body is capable. One can consume more than 30 g of protein in one sitting because of the intestinal braking system, the most significant of which is the ileal brake:



So the ileal brake controls the rate of how much food enters the small intestine so that absorption is maximized and food doesn't go to waste. In other words, it will slow down digestion essentially so that the small intestine can take its sweet time and absorb nutrients without being rushed into absorbing everything all at once. One study, showed maximum absorption rates to be as high as 10 g/hour for protein (for pure whey), although only a few proteins were measured. When you factor in a mixed diet and other sources of protein, you can expect lower rates of absorption such that it seems that a lot of protein may indeed go to waste. However, that study does not take into account the fact that the gastrointestinal system can adapt to diet, meaning that amino acid absorption can improve when the GI tract exposed to higher protein loads. To sum it all up, your intestines take care of the possible issues and make it all work in the end.

If protein was not actually broken down, then it would not even be absorbed by the intestine. If large peptides did make it into systemic circulation, your immune system would react to it and you could possibly get a food allergy from that (and this can happen with a diseased gut). A healthy small intestine makes sure that only broken down protein (amino acids, dipeptides, and tripeptides) get absorbed. Any protein that is not broken down (certain proteins and chains that are not bioavailable, that is) is not absorbed either goes to the large intestine where bacteria will use it for its own consumption or gets pooped out. It will not be turned into fat for storage because it does not enter systemic circulation in the first place.

Hope that helps. My fingers are tired.

[cjc651]

That's utter nonsense.

lol, that's what I thought but I figured he knew more than I did. However, I did ask him if he'd ever been to bodybuilding.com forums and he said no. Also he buys his supplements and protein at GNC so...

[btay12]

Yes your friend is correct. Your body will only stimulate muscle protein synthesis when a meal is consumed with a minimum of 20-25g of protein. However, the level of synthesis will not be increased if you have more protein in a single meal, for example, 50g. Therefore, it is best to spread your protein intake during the day out over as many meals as possible, ensuring that each meal has between 20-30g of protein. Google Layne Norton, he is the guru when it comes to bodybuilding nutrition and protein synthesis.

[WonderPug]

Therefore, it is best to spread your protein intake during the day out over as many meals as possible, ensuring that each meal has between 20-30g of protein.

Nonsense.

[rhizome]

Yes your friend is correct. Your body will only stimulate muscle protein synthesis when a meal is consumed with a minimum of 20-25g of protein. However, the level of synthesis will not be increased if you have more protein in a single meal, for example, 50g. Therefore, it is best to spread your protein intake during the day out over as many meals as possible, ensuring that each meal has between 20-30g of protein. Google Layne Norton, he is the guru when it comes to bodybuilding nutrition and protein synthesis.

Great post!!!!!!666

[btay12]

How is this nonsense? Scientific studies have been carried out that back up what I said. As I have said google Layne Norton and you will see that I am completely correct and examine his Phd thesis. In my mind, as a student currently studying a masters degree, in appreciate scientific evidence when I see it, and scientific evidence far outweight broscience. Why do you think the most successful bodybuilders and figure competitors stick to the most strict diets, where protein intake is split evenly throughout the day? Think about it.

[necon76]

How is this nonsense? Scientific studies have been carried out that back up what I said. As I have said google Layne Norton and you will see that I am completely correct and examine his Phd thesis. In my mind, as a student currently studying a masters degree, in appreciate scientific evidence when I see it, and scientific evidence far outweight broscience. Why do you think the most successful bodybuilders and figure competitors stick to the most strict diets, where protein intake is split evenly throughout the day? Think about it.

Please show us where Layne has ever stated that one can only absorb between 24 & 30 grams of protein at one time.

[btay12]

I also must point out, that where you are coming from WonderPug is correct, yes your body will absorb all the protein that you eat. BUT in terms of muscle protein synthesis it is a different story. For example, research has shown that maximal muscle protein synthesis occurs when consuming 25-30g of protein, and even if you eat more than this in one sitting, the synthesis will still remain the same. So whilst you are absorbing more protein with the 50g, you are not creating more muscle than if you ate 25-30g. There lies the point: as protein synthesis is only enabled when 20-30g of protein is consumed, and additional synthesis doesnt occur with greater protein loads, to get daily optimal muscle protein synthesis meals should be spread out over as many sittings as possible, each based on 25-30g. Simple. Big difference between absorption and muscle synthesis. And from what the OP is asking, whilst he used the word 'absorption', if feel that his question was focused on synthesis.

[btay12]

Necon, if you read my argument, I have never said that Layne claims that you can only absorb x amount of protein. I have simply said that muscle synthesis occurs with x amount of protein, and even if you increase x, synthesis will not increase.

[necon76]

he told me you can only absorb 24-30g of protein at one time.

Yes your friend is correct.

Nonsense.

How is this nonsense? Scientific studies have been carried out that back up what I said. As I have said google Layne Norton and you will see that I am completely correct and examine his Phd thesis.

Necon, if you read my argument, I have never said that Layne claims that you can only absorb x amount of protein. I have simply said that muscle synthesis occurs with x amount of protein, and even if you increase x, synthesis will not increase.

Make your mind up.


The topic wasn't about maximum synthesis potential. It was about someone stating that more than 30 grams of protein cannot be absorbed by the body at a time, implying that eating in excess of that amount in any given meal would go to waste. Which it most certainly will not.

[btay12]

Make your mind up.


The topic wasn't about maximum synthesis potential. It was about someone stating that more than 30 grams of protein cannot be absorbed by the body at a time, implying that eating in excess of that amount in any given meal would go to waste. Which it most certainly will not.

Go onto BIOLAYNE.com

Watch video blog 4. I cant post the link as I haven't had enough posts yet, but just check it out. It will clear it up

[layarph]

Go onto BIOLAYNE.com

Watch video blog 4. I cant post the link as I haven't had enough posts yet, but just check it out. It will clear it up

You also stated that coconut milk is the most optimal milk for body composition (error 1), but that one should never drink coconut milk in the PWO shake because it slows down protein absorption which should be avoided "for obvious reasons" (error 2). Due to this fact, and due to what I have seen above, I would err on the side of caution these posts OP.

[Addyman]

I also must point out, that where you are coming from WonderPug is correct, yes your body will absorb all the protein that you eat. BUT in terms of muscle protein synthesis it is a different story. For example, research has shown that maximal muscle protein synthesis occurs when consuming 25-30g of protein, and even if you eat more than this in one sitting, the synthesis will still remain the same. So whilst you are absorbing more protein with the 50g, you are not creating more muscle than if you ate 25-30g. There lies the point: as protein synthesis is only enabled when 20-30g of protein is consumed, and additional synthesis doesnt occur with greater protein loads, to get daily optimal muscle protein synthesis meals should be spread out over as many sittings as possible, each based on 25-30g. Simple. Big difference between absorption and muscle synthesis. And from what the OP is asking, whilst he used the word 'absorption', if feel that his question was focused on synthesis.

Yes that is true, after a certain amount (highly dependant on lean body mass, genetics, dietary habits, training status, etc) of protein ingested, synthesis does not increase any further. However the rate of protein synthesis is directly related to the amount of amino acids in your bloodstream (ingested protein), so as the 30g of protein is slowly broken down and absorbed, protein synthesis decreases as well. Eating over 30g of protein will prolong the duration of maximal protein synthesis, so essentially its almost the exact same thing except for minor factors that makes eating over 30g actually more beneficial in the long run.

[btay12]

You also stated that coconut milk is the most optimal milk for body composition (error 1), but that one should never drink coconut milk in the PWO shake because it slows down protein absorption which should be avoided "for obvious reasons" (error 2). Due to this fact, and due to what I have seen above, I would err on the side of caution these posts OP.

lol layarph, do you even lift?

[lee__d]

lol layarph, do you even lift?

Please explain to me how/if rats are a good model for muscle protein synthesis in humans, I'm genuinely curious.

[layarph]

lol layarph, do you even lift?

I won't provide a "lol" because it always shows your forcing a laugh over the Internet when really you're truly offended.... Too late for you to edit now.

I have acquired as much muscle as physically possible in the time I've had without the assistance of illegal substances... But irregardless, I could be a 260lb star wars fan at 35% body fat... It still doesn't change the fact you are clueless about the basics of nutrition.

[btay12]

I won't provide a "lol" because it always shows your forcing a laugh over the Internet when really you're truly offended.... Too late for you to edit now.

I have acquired as much muscle as physically possible in the time I've had without the assistance of illegal substances... But irregardless, I could be a 260lb star wars fan at 35% body fat... It still doesn't change the fact you are clueless about the basics of nutrition.

Due to the fact that you are 170lbs, I really find it hard to believe that you have aquired as much mass as physically possible without juicing. If this is the case, either your diet is awful, or you train with the same intensity as my nan.

And please, explain to me how I am clueless about nutrition. In this argument, i have simply said that muscle protein synthesis is maximised around the 30g mark and consumption of additional protein in the same meal will not lead to greater muscle protein synthesis. Having read numerous scientific studies and being a follower of Dr Layne Norton who also has this opinion, I am struggling to find where you get the idea of me being clueless regarding nutrition. Please could you point me in the direction of where you have acquired your 'knowledge' of nutrition, as it would be very interesting to read.

In the other argument where I said i believe cocunut milk to be the best form of milk in terms of body composition, I again struggle to see where I am incorrect here? Considering the high fat quality in coconut milk, and the effect this has on hormone levels, specifically testosterone I maintain that I am correct. Please provide me with any evidence that is solid scientifically that disputes this.

[AlwaysTryin]

Due to the fact that you are 170lbs, I really find it hard to believe that you have aquired as much mass as physically possible without juicing.

Did you even read what he wrote?

[ironwill2008]

lol layarph, do you even lift?

Due to the fact that you are 170lbs, I really find it hard to believe that you have aquired as much mass as physically possible without juicing. If this is the case, either your diet is awful, or you train with the same intensity as my nan.

By all means, continue the ad hominems; they're highly valued in this forum, and really help to solidify your position.

[Tokran]

Yang. 2012: "Resistance exercise enhances myofibrillar protein synthesis with graded intakes of whey protein in older men"
Moore. 2008: "Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men"

Two studies were ingesting 40 g protein gives 33% and 10% (respectively, both results significant) more protein synthesis than ingesting 20 g.


Moore. 2012: "Daytime pattern of post-exercise protein intake affects whole-body protein turnover in resistance-trained males"

Here different protein supplementation regimes were tested, pulse (20+20+20+20 g supplemented not including regular meals, so they probably reached over the 25 g limit several times) versus bolus (40+40 g, not including regular meals). Protein synthesis increased for the pulse regimen, but so did breakdown, leading to no significant differences in net protein synthesis.


Adechian. 2012 "Protein feeding pattern, casein feeding or milk soluble protein feeding did not change the evolution of body
composition during a short-term weight loss program."

Bolus supplementation regime of 6.4+64+3.2+6.4 g protein was equally good as a pulse regime of 20+20+20+20 g in promoting protein synthesis.


Thought I had more studies ready. But only found one proving the same thing in horses, and I can admit that it wouldn't make a very convincing argument.
Anyway. You can eat your protein whenever you want to, in whatever quantities you'd like.

[cbrent1]

Honestly since you're brand new to lifting just get your workouts in and hit your macros. Over analyzing minor nutrient timing won't do you much good, if IF works for you then continue doing it, you will get enough protein to synthesize mass. Maybe reevaluate further down the road once you have other goals in mind.

[ArchangelEST]

but if anyone could give me an answer I would really appreciate it.

Pugs initial answer is the best. You do not have to worry about that protein going to waste. While there is some debate over the utmost minute details of optimizing muscle growth through protein dosing specifics, no-one but the most highest level of competitors would ever see any difference realistically speaking - atleast that's what we can take away from the information available right now.

Yes your friend is correct. Your body will only stimulate muscle protein synthesis when a meal is consumed with a minimum of 20-25g of protein. However, the level of synthesis will not be increased if you have more protein in a single meal, for example, 50g. Therefore, it is best to spread your protein intake during the day out over as many meals as possible, ensuring that each meal has between 20-30g of protein. Google Layne Norton, he is the guru when it comes to bodybuilding nutrition and protein synthesis.

While the spike in protein synthesis may cap off after a single certain dose of amino acid intake, it has not been definitively been proven that it will provide any long term benefit to spread out one's meals as such. Layne Norton is a great guy, but he is not without faults. We all appreciate what he's trying to do, but most of us are still waiting for more conclusive evidence before jumping on this here bandwagon.

How is this nonsense? Scientific studies have been carried out that back up what I said. As I have said google Layne Norton and you will see that I am completely correct and examine his Phd thesis. In my mind, as a student currently studying a masters degree, in appreciate scientific evidence when I see it, and scientific evidence far outweight broscience. Why do you think the most successful bodybuilders and figure competitors stick to the most strict diets, where protein intake is split evenly throughout the day? Think about it.

Googline Layne Norton does not make your argument for you. We can study his thesis, but it's far from conclusive. I suggest you read up Alan Aragon's or Lyle McDonald's materials on these topics, you'll find that a lot of what Layne promotes is under heavy counterpoints in terms of it being "definitive". And Alan and Lyle are just as high on the "guru" list as Layne, if not more.

I also must point out, that where you are coming from WonderPug is correct, yes your body will absorb all the protein that you eat. BUT in terms of muscle protein synthesis it is a different story. For example, research has shown that maximal muscle protein synthesis occurs when consuming 25-30g of protein, and even if you eat more than this in one sitting, the synthesis will still remain the same. So whilst you are absorbing more protein with the 50g, you are not creating more muscle than if you ate 25-30g. There lies the point: as protein synthesis is only enabled when 20-30g of protein is consumed, and additional synthesis doesnt occur with greater protein loads, to get daily optimal muscle protein synthesis meals should be spread out over as many sittings as possible, each based on 25-30g. Simple. Big difference between absorption and muscle synthesis. And from what the OP is asking, whilst he used the word 'absorption', if feel that his question was focused on synthesis.

You are looking at this from too basic of a viewpoint. There is more to building muscle. And that protein synthesis rate is more related to specific amino acids like Leucine, and only a few grams are needed to cap of protein synthesis. So why don't you say that consuming 3g of leucine every few hours is all that's needed? Cause you also need the actual full set of amino acids, the energy, the physical stimulus. It's not a simple topic.

Necon, if you read my argument, I have never said that Layne claims that you can only absorb x amount of protein. I have simply said that muscle synthesis occurs with x amount of protein, and even if you increase x, synthesis will not increase.

Acute protein synthesis may not increase after a certain amino acid dose, it says nothing about long term effects.

Go onto BIOLAYNE.com

Watch video blog 4. I cant post the link as I haven't had enough posts yet, but just check it out. It will clear it up

It will not "clear it up".

lol layarph, do you even lift?

Irrelevant

Due to the fact that you are 170lbs, I really find it hard to believe that you have aquired as much mass as physically possible without juicing. If this is the case, either your diet is awful, or you train with the same intensity as my nan.

And please, explain to me how I am clueless about nutrition. In this argument, i have simply said that muscle protein synthesis is maximised around the 30g mark and consumption of additional protein in the same meal will not lead to greater muscle protein synthesis. Having read numerous scientific studies and being a follower of Dr Layne Norton who also has this opinion, I am struggling to find where you get the idea of me being clueless regarding nutrition. Please could you point me in the direction of where you have acquired your 'knowledge' of nutrition, as it would be very interesting to read.

In the other argument where I said i believe cocunut milk to be the best form of milk in terms of body composition, I again struggle to see where I am incorrect here? Considering the high fat quality in coconut milk, and the effect this has on hormone levels, specifically testosterone I maintain that I am correct. Please provide me with any evidence that is solid scientifically that disputes this.

You are appealing a little bit to authority here with all the Layne fandom, we share it to some extent, but it is a good idea to question everything he writes and says very heavily as well, he would have it no other way.

You are not clueless, rather overly enthusiastic about a topic that can take a very long time to comprehend properly, and it seems that you only understand bits and pieces and are eager to claim to know the full details to the whole puzzle.

Yang. 2012: "Resistance exercise enhances myofibrillar protein synthesis with graded intakes of whey protein in older men"
Moore. 2008: "Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men"

Two studies were ingesting 40 g protein gives 33% and 10% (respectively, both results significant) more protein synthesis than ingesting 20 g.

Older folk develop leucine resistance, they will not react the same to amino acid doses as younger folk.

Moore. 2012: "Daytime pattern of post-exercise protein intake affects whole-body protein turnover in resistance-trained males"

Here different protein supplementation regimes were tested, pulse (20+20+20+20 g supplemented not including regular meals, so they probably reached over the 25 g limit several times) versus bolus (40+40 g, not including regular meals). Protein synthesis increased for the pulse regimen, but so did breakdown, leading to no significant differences in net protein synthesis.


Adechian. 2012 "Protein feeding pattern, casein feeding or milk soluble protein feeding did not change the evolution of body
composition during a short-term weight loss program."

Bolus supplementation regime of 6.4+64+3.2+6.4 g protein was equally good as a pulse regime of 20+20+20+20 g in promoting protein synthesis.

Thought I had more studies ready. But only found one proving the same thing in horses, and I can admit that it wouldn't make a very convincing argument.
Anyway. You can eat your protein whenever you want to, in whatever quantities you'd like.

Indeed it is true that most studies find no, or negligible differences in protein dosing as long as protein req. for the day is amply met as-well as the calories.

[StelioK]

If that were true, eating protocols based on intermittent fasting would yield terrible results, which they do not.

[ironwill2008]

Layne Norton is a great guy, but he is not without faults. We all appreciate what he's trying to do, but most of us are still waiting for more conclusive evidence before jumping on this here bandwagon.

And Dr. Norton himself has stated many times that more research needs to be done.

[ArchangelEST]

And Dr. Norton himself has stated many times that more research needs to be done.

Exactly. Layne knows that more data is needed, he's just a bit giddy and enthusiastic, and his followers even more so, often blinded by Layne awesomeness, lol.

[layarph]

Due to the fact that you are 170lbs, I really find it hard to believe that you have aquired as much mass as physically possible without juicing. If this is the case, either your diet is awful, or you train with the same intensity as my nan.

Please re-read what I said. When you do, you'll realise that I don't train like your nan (respect that your nan trains), and my diet is awesome... in every way ... without coconut milk.

And please, explain to me how I am clueless about nutrition. In this argument, i have simply said that muscle protein synthesis is maximised around the 30g mark and consumption of additional protein in the same meal will not lead to greater muscle protein synthesis. Having read numerous scientific studies and being a follower of Dr Layne Norton who also has this opinion, I am struggling to find where you get the idea of me being clueless regarding nutrition. Please could you point me in the direction of where you have acquired your 'knowledge' of nutrition, as it would be very interesting to read.

Layne is highly regarded by many around here, including myself. If I were to recommend others, I'd say Aragon and McDonald. Your problem is, instead of interpreting Layne's articles, your parrot them and think you fully understand it as being mandatory. A perfect example of parroting would be saying meal timing (towards body composition) is completely irrelevant, when really, it isn't... but assuming you hit your macros and cals daily and assuming you aren't carrying out endurance style activities and assuming you aren't competing, it is practically irrelevant.

In the other argument where I said i believe cocunut milk to be the best form of milk in terms of body composition, I again struggle to see where I am incorrect here? Considering the high fat quality in coconut milk, and the effect this has on hormone levels, specifically testosterone I maintain that I am correct. Please provide me with any evidence that is solid scientifically that disputes this.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748
Overall this study shows that individual macros have no difference towards body composition, which you should then be able to conclude that, if the type of macro doesn't affect body composition, then different types of fat can't either.

By saying that one type of fat is optimal for body composition, you are implying that you need to be intaking a specific ratio of the fat varieties to get to your optimal physical appearance... this clearly shows that you don't understand how fat is treated by the body, when, as long as you get in an 'ok' mix of fat varieties, you will be fine in terms of cholesterol ... but even if you don't get a good mix in, it still makes no difference to your body composition.

NB I managed to do all that without any digs; try it.