Specific Grip Training Question

[noahfor]

I really don't want to come across as a know-it-all or someone who thinks he's above other people's advice, but I've been trying to get this one question answered on several other message boards for days, and while there is no shortage of people willing to weigh-in with the suggestion of buying some COC grippers, for some reason no one will touch the question. Please someone have some mercy and answer the question. Even if you think it's irrelevant, even if you think it's gibberish, even if you think the answer will lead to my early death, please just answer the question.

Let's say you're trying to build maximal pinch strength. Would you ever use a protocol like this one, or have you ever heard of anyone using one successfully? This is not for recovery or endurance, but for maximal strength training:

The weight stays the same throughout. Five pinch holds, 10 seconds each hold, with 5 seconds rest between each hold. That's it.

For instance:

20lbs x 10 seconds
5 seconds rest
20lbs x 10 seconds
5 seconds rest
20lbs x 10 seconds
5 seconds rest
20lbs x 10 seconds
5 seconds rest
20lbs x 10 seconds

Would that work for anyone? What about a person who is an intermediate grip athlete? Advanced?

I'm trying to figure out what kind of rep ranges, time lengths, rest period are used for isometric grip training, such as static pinching.

Thanks.

[showmestate08]

I guess I should ask what are your goals before I criticize someone who talks about "maximal pinch strength"

[Szarko]

What the fuk?

[Kemo1990]

someone aware me on CoC grips ive seen that used alot around here and just laugh like a dumb****

[noahfor]

I guess I should ask what are your goals before I criticize someone who talks about "maximal pinch strength"

Well, by maximal pinch strength, I just mean strength, not endurance, being able to pinch harder, with more force. I was just trying to be clear what I was talking about. I am a rock climber. I do a lot of bouldering - short duration, strength and power based climbing.

I'm actually not even looking to increase my maximal pinch strength. I'm merely using pinching as an example because it's the only type of isometric grip strength, that I'm aware of, that is trained by grip athletes. There are different kinds of isometric grips that can be trained with dead hangs from a hangboard for climbing - open handed, crimp, slopers, pinches. I need to improve all of them. Pinching is the least worrisome to me because pinches are encountered less frequently than the other grips and I think I could probably build pinch strength with some haphazard linear pinch routine because my pinch grip isn't as advanced. However, the other grips are pretty well developed and I feel like I need to get a handle on how isometric grip strength responds to variables like sets, rests, intensity, duration before I can develop a routine.

Now, why not just do what other climbers are doing? Because they know **** about training. I took that sample pinch protocol from the most popular and most widely accepted hangboard program, except that what I posted constitutes only one set. In the actual program, you'd go on to do 7 more sets, with only 2 minutes rest in between sets, only the grips would change. That's 40 10-second holds in the space of like 20 minutes. I have no idea how it was developed. I suspect some climber read Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia of Body Building and tried to adapt one of his routines to the hangboard. The whole climbing community accepts stuff and talks about it like it's fact because they read it in one book. It's just like bodybuilding message boards were 10 years ago, when it was fact not to work the same muscle more than once a week, and fact that you had to consume whey and dextrose after a workout to make any progress.

I assume you are really passionate about powerlifting. Imagine if you knew nothing about rest intervals, sets, rep, intensity, volume, periodization but you had that insatiable drive to get stronger. You might be able to get stronger for a while, but eventually you'd hit a plateu that you wouldn't be able to get past. The combinations of variables are endless. Luckily for you people have done the work for you, tinkering with all the variables until they end up with Smolov, Rippetoes, Westside, Sheiko, etc. None of those exist for climbers, and instead of trying to figure it out, people keep repeating "the best training for climbing is climbing" or coming up with hair brained protocols based on some book from the 70s. There are no Russian scientists coming up with training protocols for climbing.

If you don't understand climbing, it might seem stupid, but there's as much depth to it as any strength sport. You might imagine people just walk up to some random rock ladder and try to get to the top for fun. No. Every climb has a name, specific holds, and a difficulty grade. There is a hierarchy of difficulty that is as hard to progress through as it is to get to a 900 pound deadlift.

[noahfor]

someone aware me on CoC grips ive seen that used alot around here and just laugh like a dumb****

Captains of Crush

[Szarko]

I want to ride my bicycle...

I want to ride my bike.

[noahfor]

I want to ride my bicycle...

I want to ride my bike.

cool

[showmestate08]

I'd suggest you keep looking for advice from other climbers. Eventually you will find someone who really knows what they're doing and can offer advice that doesn't suck.

It may be a matter of trial and error. I think you have the right idea as far as linear progression and tinkering with weight/sets/duration. Take notes and adjust your training accordingly.

Much of the advice you will receive in powerlifting forums will be something like CoC, deadlifts, farmers walk, weighted hangs, heavy pulls etc. Obviously those who perform these exercises probably have overall strength in mind (as opposed to grip specific)-- but I find it hard to believe that you can't benefit from performing these lifts occasionally. I'm sure pinching 20lbs for X amount of time and sets has its benefits, but I feel like gripping 400+lbs on a barbell can also serve a purpose

[noahfor]

Thanks for at least taking the time to understand what I'm asking. I wasn't trying to target powerlifters, rather, the grip enthusiasts that frequent this section. I know Titania(?) used to post here and she was real into grip work.

Anyway, I never even thought of doing static holds by way of rack lockouts, so I'm glad you posted that. I kept thinking I would have to get my deadlift way up, which is pretty hard while trying to maintain a climbing bodyweight.

[dumboldguy]

First thing I would do if you haven't already is head over to the gripboard. they have some programs in the FAQ that have worked well for a lot of people. Second thing - if it were me, i personally wouldn't do the program you listed. IMO in general, any time you do things "for time" you're not really doing them for strength. I would just do reps of pinching the weights, but only holding for like a second at the top. Most good grip programs start with high volume, low or medium intensity then ramp up the intensity, down the volume, deload, peak and then compete. So, if you had a pinch block and your 2 hand pinch max was say 100 pounds, it would look something like this:

week 1 MWF 5x8 @ 50
week 2 MWF 4x6 @ 60
week 3 MWF 4x5 @ 65
week 4 MWF 4x5 @ 70
week 5 MWF 3x4 @ 77.5
week 6 MWF 3x3 @ 82.5
week 7 MWF 3x3 @ 62.5
week 8 max

you can add that into your regular routine. It shouldn't take too much time, and hopefully at the end you'll be pulling more than 100.

[John Hicks]

Thanks for at least taking the time to understand what I'm asking. I wasn't trying to target powerlifters, rather, the grip enthusiasts that frequent this section. I know Titania(?) used to post here and she was real into grip work.

You bring up Titania, that tells me right off you've been around here for awhile. If I were to give you any advice on improving your pinch strength, it would be this: work your thumbs! That's it - your thumb strength. Using pinch blocks are great, go as heavy as you can on them, chalk them if you have to. Also, pinch a variety of odd objects; blocks of various widths, cylinders (such as weighted baseballs, softballs, heavy shotputs, etc.), and cones (like anvils and the LBH). Have you ever tried doing pushups using your thumbs? I've tried that too (please be careful if you do that). I even have a 20 pound weight plate attached to a strap that I use for "thumb benching" (I can post a pic of that if you want). Just doing static holds on a pinch block will not make you any stronger. One of the best ways to improve your pinch strength is to work with blobs, John Brookfield swears by them. Any more questions? Just ask!

[large chris]

First thing I would do if you haven't already is head over to the gripboard. they have some programs in the FAQ that have worked well for a lot of people. Second thing - if it were me, i personally wouldn't do the program you listed. IMO in general, any time you do things "for time" you're not really doing them for strength. I would just do reps of pinching the weights, but only holding for like a second at the top. Most good grip programs start with high volume, low or medium intensity then ramp up the intensity, down the volume, deload, peak and then compete. So, if you had a pinch block and your 2 hand pinch max was say 100 pounds, it would look something like this:

week 1 MWF 5x8 @ 50
week 2 MWF 4x6 @ 60
week 3 MWF 4x5 @ 65
week 4 MWF 4x5 @ 70
week 5 MWF 3x4 @ 77.5
week 6 MWF 3x3 @ 82.5
week 7 MWF 3x3 @ 62.5
week 8 max

you can add that into your regular routine. It shouldn't take too much time, and hopefully at the end you'll be pulling more than 100.

This sounds good to me. OP you might be trying to make this too complicated. It really should be straightforward to try some routines as above and assess if you are making progress.

My experience is that regular training - dead, row, bi tri etc. did not give me the intensity to improve my grip strength at all. Dedicated and high rep work with something like cofc worked much better.

Also I found it easy to cheat on grip exercises. If it seems too easy try exercises using just the finger tips, not the whole length of the finger, doubles the difficulty.

Sorry don't believe that climbing is as tricky as you make out, looks pretty easy to me. And using ropes is surely cheating where is the excitement in that?

[Iceman1800]

You are a rock climber? Pinch plates actually work more thumb strength than anything. IMHO, I would focus more on hub grip training. Grab the hub around a 25# plate and pick it up to see what I mean. You can screw an eye bolt into a softball, tie a rope thru it and wrap the rope thru a plate and do picks with it too.

[Iceman1800]

Lol, just noticed John Hicks already responded to your question. Just do everything he says OP. He is a master of grip strength knowledge

[John Hicks]

He is a master of grip strength knowledge

Ha ha, naw... I am just a serious student of the subject and an enthusiast for many years. Known and talked to a lot of grip guys and I've been and done myself, but thanks for the vote of confidence - it made my day!

[joelash302]

Mike Anderson is probably one of the better guys to talk to/read about grip strength training as it relates specifically to climbing. Unless I've completely missed something, I've never seen non-wall/hangboard training recommended to improve the skill (although I'm playing with this now - due to time constraints and lack of a hangboard I am working on a routine with an adjustable gripper in line with my normal routine). His routines follow the same periodization schemes as powerlifting with hypertrophy/ARC/ME waves.

You're on the right track with timed static holds as the top climbers have extremely high finger strength, as well as capacity to sustain holds of high %rm for longer durations.

[noahfor]

First thing I would do if you haven't already is head over to the gripboard. they have some programs in the FAQ that have worked well for a lot of people. Second thing - if it were me, i personally wouldn't do the program you listed. IMO in general, any time you do things "for time" you're not really doing them for strength. I would just do reps of pinching the weights, but only holding for like a second at the top. Most good grip programs start with high volume, low or medium intensity then ramp up the intensity, down the volume, deload, peak and then compete. So, if you had a pinch block and your 2 hand pinch max was say 100 pounds, it would look something like this:

week 1 MWF 5x8 @ 50
week 2 MWF 4x6 @ 60
week 3 MWF 4x5 @ 65
week 4 MWF 4x5 @ 70
week 5 MWF 3x4 @ 77.5
week 6 MWF 3x3 @ 82.5
week 7 MWF 3x3 @ 62.5
week 8 max

you can add that into your regular routine. It shouldn't take too much time, and hopefully at the end you'll be pulling more than 100.

Thanks for the reply. Intuitively, the protocol you posted looks a lot better than what I posted. I'll give it a try. I'll check out that board as well.

[noahfor]

You bring up Titania, that tells me right off you've been around here for awhile. If I were to give you any advice on improving your pinch strength, it would be this: work your thumbs! That's it - your thumb strength. Using pinch blocks are great, go as heavy as you can on them, chalk them if you have to. Also, pinch a variety of odd objects; blocks of various widths, cylinders (such as weighted baseballs, softballs, heavy shotputs, etc.), and cones (like anvils and the LBH). Have you ever tried doing pushups using your thumbs? I've tried that too (please be careful if you do that). I even have a 20 pound weight plate attached to a strap that I use for "thumb benching" (I can post a pic of that if you want). Just doing static holds on a pinch block will not make you any stronger. One of the best ways to improve your pinch strength is to work with blobs, John Brookfield swears by them. Any more questions? Just ask!

Thanks for the info. I am interested in building pinch and thumb strength, but I was only using pinches as an example due to their isometric nature. Obviously, the training protocol for grippers is going to be different since they are a dynamic exercise. Climbing doesn't really have much dynamic stuff involving the grip, so I thought finding out about how grip athletes train pinch would have the most applicability to climbing.

Unfortunately, a lot of the time, in climbing, the thumb doesn't have anything to do. But, it's still important. I will look into blob work as you've suggested. I also have a titan telegraph key, but I haven't incorporated it into my training yet.

Sure, I'd like to see a pic of the thumb benching.

Thanks.

[John Hicks]

Thanks for the info. I am interested in building pinch and thumb strength, but I was only using pinches as an example due to their isometric nature.

I understand.

Obviously, the training protocol for grippers is going to be different since they are a dynamic exercise.

But why ignore it? Grippers have their place, they build strength, which is what you're after isn't it? BTW, I didn't mention grippers anywhere in my post, since that was not what you were asking about.

Climbing doesn't really have much dynamic stuff involving the grip, so I thought finding out about how grip athletes train pinch would have the most applicability to climbing.

Climbing is an all-over arm exercise, bringing into play not only the fingers, but your wrists, forearms, biceps, triceps and shoulders - so TRAIN THEM ALL. Have you considered thick rope climbing as a training tool?

Unfortunately, a lot of the time, in climbing, the thumb doesn't have anything to do. But, it's still important. I will look into blob work as you've suggested. I also have a titan telegraph key, but I haven't incorporated it into my training yet.

Thumbs are important, so is everything else. If you have a weak area, pay special attention to that and train that more so.

Sure, I'd like to see a pic of the thumb benching.

I'll post it up soon.

Thanks.

Glad to be of service to ya.

[noahfor]

I understand.

But why ignore it? Grippers have their place, they build strength, which is what you're after isn't it?

I'll just play devil's advocate here. Ignore grippers because they are a dynamic movement that won't have any carryover to the exclusively static grips used in climbing. Also, grippers work the hands in a range of motion that is almost never encountered in climbing. Most of the time in climbing the fingers are extended beyond the point where one starts the gripper motion.

That's what I've heard repeated many times. I don't know myself, since I've never tried them.

BTW, I didn't mention grippers anywhere in my post, since that was not what you were asking about.

Yeah, I know. I only brought up grippers to make my point about why I chose pinch blocks as an example. I was just over-explaining a simple point, sorry.

Climbing is an all-over arm exercise, bringing into play not only the fingers, but your wrists, forearms, biceps, triceps and shoulders - so TRAIN THEM ALL. Have you considered thick rope climbing as a training tool?

That makes sense. Climbing is mired in this ultra specific training mentality. It's hard to tell if it's because it actually needs to be that specific or because climbers have no idea how to train.

Thumbs are important, so is everything else. If you have a weak area, pay special attention to that and train that more so.

Noted. Will do.

[PaulSavage]

I really don't want to come across as a know-it-all or someone who thinks he's above other people's advice, but I've been trying to get this one question answered on several other message boards for days, and while there is no shortage of people willing to weigh-in with the suggestion of buying some COC grippers, for some reason no one will touch the question. Please someone have some mercy and answer the question. Even if you think it's irrelevant, even if you think it's gibberish, even if you think the answer will lead to my early death, please just answer the question.

Let's say you're trying to build maximal pinch strength. Would you ever use a protocol like this one, or have you ever heard of anyone using one successfully? This is not for recovery or endurance, but for maximal strength training:

The weight stays the same throughout. Five pinch holds, 10 seconds each hold, with 5 seconds rest between each hold. That's it.

For instance:

20lbs x 10 seconds
5 seconds rest
20lbs x 10 seconds
5 seconds rest
20lbs x 10 seconds
5 seconds rest
20lbs x 10 seconds
5 seconds rest
20lbs x 10 seconds

Would that work for anyone? What about a person who is an intermediate grip athlete? Advanced?

I'm trying to figure out what kind of rep ranges, time lengths, rest period are used for isometric grip training, such as static pinching.

Thanks.

Personally i have had the most success with heavy singles for volume and timed holds of 30-45 seconds for multiple sets.