Keto - You're ALL doing it WRONG.

[sprig]

didnt people eat fruits before?

Just a thought: the fruits that cavemen would have eaten would have been tiny and probably very scarce. We've selected for bigger, sweeter, more carb filled fruits with trees that produce more of them in recent times. So what I'm trying to say is, they probably did, but only a fraction of what we eat today.

[Beatletown]

Most Cavemen were dead by their mid 20's if they were lucky. I think the comparison is irrelevant although I can see the reasoning for the OP argument even if it is not put across the best way.

[funkypigeon]

[QUOTE=Beatletown;847379113]Most Cavemen were dead by their mid 20's if they were lucky. I think the comparison is irrelevant although I can see the reasoning for the OP argument even if it is not put across the best way.[/QUOTE
no they were not. it obviously varies from civilisation to civilisation but they actualy lived for a large variation of ages. if you remove child birth the average shoots up from 25 to like 45. and if you go to tribes and ancient civilations all over the world they tend to have village elders, i have see some on the TV who were in there 80's.

[activeseven]

Most Cavemen were dead by their mid 20's if they were lucky.

False, Archeological studies show that cavemen l lived just as long we do. However, their main causes of death was infection and accidents. Our "safe environment" and medical prowess mask that fact. There are plenty of bones unearthed that are from primitive man in their 70's - 80's.

[blorge]

SO, for all of you calling me an idiot, a troll, etc, here's a study which backs up what I am saying:

Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects
http://www.ajcn.org/content/26/2/197.abstract

"In normal subjects, the fat content of a formula diet in the form of corn oil and olive oil (but with constant carbohydrate and protein intake) was raised continuously up to a daily ingestion of more than 6,800 fat calories. Under normal utilization of fat in the gastrointestinal tract, it was seen that there was only a slight weight gain, compared with the caloric intake."

But more importantly:

"At daily intakes of 300 to 400 g fat and higher, the test subjects reported a marked sensation of heat extending over the entire body and a marked tendency toward sweating."

This is what I experience when I eat excess calories in the form of fat, on keto. This is what others experience too, but I have only discovered this study today. I don't know about you, but it sure explains it all for me.

Basically your body will HEAT UP YOUR BODY to burn excess calories. Calories out is therefore dependant on calories in on a restricted carbohydrate diet.
Would really appreciate some discussion on this.

[Atavis]

Are you restricting protein to the same levels found in the study?

[blorge]

Are you restricting protein to the same levels found in the study?

Nope, I also eat a lot less than 60g of carbohydrates. You didn't mention that though did you.

[Atavis]

Nope, I also eat a lot less than 60g of carbohydrates. You didn't mention that though did you.

No need. That was a fair assumption given the context of your thread. (Attitude notwithstanding)


Here's another study to read. Impact of dietary fat content and fat oxidation on energy intake in humans.

[Labello]

Also ever noticed when you overeat fat on keto you get an increased energy buzz, feel warmer etc, but DONT gain weight?

no. /thread

[blorge]

No need. That was a fair assumption given the context of your thread. (Attitude notwithstanding)


Here's another study to read. Impact of dietary fat content and fat oxidation on energy intake in humans.

Thanks for the reply, but that study is not a carbohydrate restricted study. The results were therefore as I expected. That is the whole basis of what I am saying.

I made this thread to discuss the use of excess fat calories on a KETOGENIC diet (keto forums here), as I believe Insulin, the regulator of fat accumulation is the cause of fat storage, not excess calories. I'm not really looking at protein consumption. It IS relevant, but the excess fat is what i'm getting at.

The study I found and posted makes sense to me because it directly relates to my own experience of eating "excess" fat calories on a ketogenic diet. Something that not many people do, and therefore not many studies have been done on (despite the carbohydrate content of the diet is, as i'm sure you'll agree, a fair bit higher than the standard keto value).

Thanks for your input nonetheless, but posting studies on non carbohydrate-restricted diets aren't adding anything valuable to this discussion.

[BigDakota]

cmon I cant be the only one to get the 'meat sweats' at thanksgiving?! lol /defusetension

[bbrock293]

cmon I cant be the only one to get the 'meat sweats' at thanksgiving?! lol /defusetension

My wife told me the other day I smelled like meat. I told her real men smell like meat. She stared at me.

[bbrock293]

Thanks for the reply, but that study is not a carbohydrate restricted study. The results were therefore as I expected. That is the whole basis of what I am saying.

I made this thread to discuss the use of excess fat calories on a KETOGENIC diet (keto forums here), as I believe Insulin, the regulator of fat accumulation is the cause of fat storage, not excess calories. I'm not really looking at protein consumption. It IS relevant, but the excess fat is what i'm getting at.

The study I found and posted makes sense to me because it directly relates to my own experience of eating "excess" fat calories on a ketogenic diet. Something that not many people do, and therefore not many studies have been done on (despite the carbohydrate content of the diet is, as i'm sure you'll agree, a fair bit higher than the standard keto value).

Thanks for your input nonetheless, but posting studies on non carbohydrate-restricted diets aren't adding anything valuable to this discussion.

I may be missing something, but according to the full study, 1 person gained 20 pounds eating high-fat ? I wouldn't consider this gaining little weight.

[BigDakota]

My wife told me the other day I smelled like meat. I told her real men smell like meat. She stared at me.

hahaha (slowly brings bacon strip to mouth). I get that same thing. "what are you going to eat with your chicken?" "uhhhh another..piece..of..chicken?"

[swander57]

How about ALL OF EVOLUTIONARY HISTORY?

Oh no, sorry, that's not peer reviewed is it. Use common sense instead of relying on articles.

Hey *******ron how about you go check out my keto diet RESULTS PICTURES. I lost 6-7% body fat in 2 MONTHS. PROOF THAT IT WORKS...

But here you are spamming the keto thread because you lost a pound of water weight and yet you have no pics showing any progress. pics or didn't happen

PICS OR DIDN'T HAPPEN

[Carus]

Let me reiterate.

I tried a ketogenic bulk once, 3500-4000 calories per day, very high fat, virtually zero carbs. Didn't want to prove anything, just wanted to experiment.

Gained about 8-9 pounds of fat by the end of the second month.

Insulin is a primary driver in fat storage, but not the only one. Fat can still be stored away on its own. In fact, long chain fatty acids (which are the main fats found in meat) MUST be stored away first before it can be broken down for energy.

Unless nearly all the fat you're consuming is in the form of coconut oil, your point is moot.

[blorge]

Hey *******ron how about you go check out my keto diet RESULTS PICTURES. I lost 6-7% body fat in 2 MONTHS. PROOF THAT IT WORKS...

But here you are spamming the keto thread because you lost a pound of water weight and yet you have no pics showing any progress. pics or didn't happen

PICS OR DIDN'T HAPPEN

"*******ron" - nice.

For you, actually understanding what my thread is getting at would be a GREAT start.

[Carus]

Here's a question for you: how much do you currently weigh and what's your current body fat percentage?

[swander57]

"*******ron" - nice.

For you, actually understanding what my thread is getting at would be a GREAT start.

Ok so explain to me how everyone on here is wrong and how you are right. And be completely oblivious to the thread I mentioned about how cutting calories on a keto diet works and I have PROOF (because you are too lazy to look it up http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=143184093)
Also I still haven't seen ANY PICTURES OF YOUR PROGRESS.

SO if you are losing "weight like MAD" where's the proof??? I see no stats by you. I see no pictures of you. YOU are an IDIOT.

[txlonghorns23]

Normally I would try to defend OP since even though he might not have tried this diet, he provided a study to his claims. He obviously just wants a discussion of the topic. HOWEVER, as claimed in the original post, he is "losing weight like MAD" so I would like to see this. Dont make claims that you can't/won't back up

[bbrock293]

Normally I would try to defend OP since even though he might not have tried this diet, he provided a study to his claims. He obviously just wants a discussion of the topic. HOWEVER, as claimed in the original post, he is "losing weight like MAD" so I would like to see this. Dont make claims that you can't/won't back up

I am still wondering if post #73 is going to be addressed...

[midcoastking33]

Lol OP fails at understanding study design and didn't actually read the full article

[Big Dude 54]

SO, for all of you calling me an idiot, a troll, etc, here's a study which backs up what I am saying:

Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects
http://www.ajcn.org/content/26/2/197.abstract

"In normal subjects, the fat content of a formula diet in the form of corn oil and olive oil (but with constant carbohydrate and protein intake) was raised continuously up to a daily ingestion of more than 6,800 fat calories. Under normal utilization of fat in the gastrointestinal tract, it was seen that there was only a slight weight gain, compared with the caloric intake."

But more importantly:

"At daily intakes of 300 to 400 g fat and higher, the test subjects reported a marked sensation of heat extending over the entire body and a marked tendency toward sweating."

This is what I experience when I eat excess calories in the form of fat, on keto. This is what others experience too, but I have only discovered this study today. I don't know about you, but it sure explains it all for me.

Basically your body will HEAT UP YOUR BODY to burn excess calories. Calories out is therefore dependant on calories in on a restricted carbohydrate diet.
Would really appreciate some discussion on this.

A couple of things: 1) this study involved 5 people ... by todays standards (this study was done nearly 40 years ago), this does not provide sufficient evidence to back your theory. Also, the study does not suggest whether the subjects were already on low-carb, high-fat diets prior ... which would provide solid evidence as to why they felt a warm sensation. On this diet plan, fat is burned ... when fat is burned, heat is given off and it would also be reasonable to suggest that the obesity in this subjects probably played a roll in that as well, given they had more stored adipose to burn.

2) A study that cites the one you mentioned (http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/4/1617.full.pdf) suggests that the standard form (which everyone else considers the right way to a ketogenic diet) is actually right. At the time this article was published, and as far as I can tell it still is, it was the most extensive study of it's kind (6-months in duration compared to 45 days ... with 37 more subjects no less).

Skepticism by people who have lived in a ketogenic fashion and have found success is warranted. Of course they're going to be put on the defensive when someone comes in and says you ALL are doing keto WRONG ... you would feel the same way.

Also, it warrants saying that increased body heat/sweating is not suggestive of massive caloric loss. From what I'm seeing (or not actually), there aren't studies suggesting caloric output via increased sweating.

One point you mentioned in your very first post that is true is that the intestinal tract is not 100% effect in absorbing all nutrients/calories from food and so some calories are indeed lost in feces ... however this is generally seen when a proper amount of fiber is taken in, nor does this really provide evidence that consuming higher amounts of fat is going to benefit in any way.

Funny thing is, many/most people who live in ketosis enjoy the way they eat/feel. I can't recall many threads in recent memory suggesting otherwise. That said, you continue doing what you're doing any being happy and let others live and continue doing what they feel is correct.

[Mr.Cooper69]

SO, for all of you calling me an idiot, a troll, etc, here's a study which backs up what I am saying:

Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects
http://www.ajcn.org/content/26/2/197.abstract

"In normal subjects, the fat content of a formula diet in the form of corn oil and olive oil (but with constant carbohydrate and protein intake) was raised continuously up to a daily ingestion of more than 6,800 fat calories. Under normal utilization of fat in the gastrointestinal tract, it was seen that there was only a slight weight gain, compared with the caloric intake."

But more importantly:

"At daily intakes of 300 to 400 g fat and higher, the test subjects reported a marked sensation of heat extending over the entire body and a marked tendency toward sweating."

This is what I experience when I eat excess calories in the form of fat, on keto. This is what others experience too, but I have only discovered this study today. I don't know about you, but it sure explains it all for me.

Basically your body will HEAT UP YOUR BODY to burn excess calories. Calories out is therefore dependant on calories in on a restricted carbohydrate diet.
Would really appreciate some discussion on this.

Science is not a function of a single study, but rather a cumulative, multi-perspective look at a recurring phenomenon:



As far as science dictates, ketogenic diets offer no body composition benefits over a traditional caloric deficit.

[Atavis]

Sigh, I hate to resort to this, but I don't have the time (or will frankly) to argue it these days.

Here, read up: Gary Taubes Fact Check & GCBC Fact Check

Lot's of references provided therein.

More:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...t-loss-qa.html

[blorge]

Ok so explain to me how everyone on here is wrong and how you are right. And be completely oblivious to the thread I mentioned about how cutting calories on a keto diet works and I have PROOF (because you are too lazy to look it up http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=143184093)
Also I still haven't seen ANY PICTURES OF YOUR PROGRESS.

SO if you are losing "weight like MAD" where's the proof??? I see no stats by you. I see no pictures of you. YOU are an IDIOT.

Of course you lost weight on a caloric deficit.. didn't really feel the need to look at your thread to believe this. I'm not saying the laws of thermodynamics don't apply. I'm saying people take the concept in the wrong way, assuming that calories out is completely independent of calories in. Honestly read the thread if you plan on replying again. Also calling me an idiot shows me how angry you are. It's a bit weird if i'm honest.

Can someone tell me what happened to the "unused" part of the 6800 daily calories in the study I linked? If i'm wrong about how they are used I would love to know what happens to them. I'm not being sarcastic by the way, I am genuinely interested about how the body avoids storing this excess as adipose tissue.

And to those knocking the study (kind of surprising seeing as everyone always DEMANDS studies like this to back up claims, and no one took me seriously until I provided it), please state specifically what is wrong with each part of the study you are sceptical about. In detail. Also if you can add to the discussion I appreciate it. Thinking i'm wrong and stating why is one thing, but calling me names is just immature.

[swander57]

Of course you lost weight on a caloric deficit.. didn't really feel the need to look at your thread to believe this. I'm not saying the laws of thermodynamics don't apply. I'm saying people take the concept in the wrong way, assuming that calories out is completely independent of calories in. Honestly read the thread if you plan on replying again. Also calling me an idiot shows me how angry you are. It's a bit weird if i'm honest.

Can someone tell me what happened to the "unused" part of the 6800 daily calories in the study I linked? If i'm wrong about how they are used I would love to know what happens to them. I'm not being sarcastic by the way, I am genuinely interested about how the body avoids storing this excess as adipose tissue.

And to those knocking the study (kind of surprising seeing as everyone always DEMANDS studies like this to back up claims, and no one took me seriously until I provided it), please state specifically what is wrong with each part of the study you are sceptical about. In detail. Also if you can add to the discussion I appreciate it. Thinking i'm wrong and stating why is one thing, but calling me names is just immature.

I'm just gonna let you live your life OP. If you think you're right and you want to get into shape then power to ya

[Schoonie]

You're all doing keto wrong.

Intentionally eating less food when food is in abundance, and your hunger is telling you to EAT is naturally WRONG.

Provide your body with more than enough calories of fat and protein (obviously minimal carbs, throughout evolution we ran on a ketogenic diet, and insulin will **** up the mechanism) and your body will realise it won't NEED fat stores. Fat stores are not needed by the human body when it knows food is abundant. It will release fat stores, you will excrete calories.

Obviously no one is clever enough to have ever tried eating at a caloric surplus on a ketogenic diet (CUZ CALORIES IN CALORIES OUT DUHH). Well **** me not, calorie excretion is a REAL thing. Also ever noticed when you overeat fat on keto you get an increased energy buzz, feel warmer etc, but DONT gain weight? You think its a good idea to be consuming less than your body needs just because you want to look good? IIFYM IIFYM **** OFF.

In the famous words of Taubes: Insulin regulates fat stores, NOT the number of calories. But i'm wrong right?

Oh and there's me, eating 2 pots of almond butter each day along with my 3x 1500 calorie fry ups, losing weight like MAD. But I must be wrong, right? I'm lying, right? must be water weight, right? because my rep is low and CALORIES IN = CALORIES OUT. Name a caveman who counted calories...? (I do eat fibrous veg too, but this is irrelevant to the point i'm making on calories)

Try it. Or just carry on counting, your choice..

pulled this directly from ketogenic diet by lyle mcdonald...

"Strangely, some individuals have reported that they can over consume calories on a
ketogenic diet without gaining as much fat as would be expected. While this seems to contradict
basic thermodynamics, it may be that the excess dietary fat is excreted as excess ketones rather
than being stored. Frequently these individuals note that urinary ketone levels as measured by
Ketostix are much deeper when they over consume calories. Obviously at some point a
threshold is reached where fat consumption is higher than utilization, and fat will be stored."

The point of a keto diet is NOT to consume less than what ur body needs. It's to maximize fat oxidation and minimize muscle loss and protein catabolism. That's done by raising glucagon lvls and lowering insulin lvls (which is PRIMARILY a direct result of dietary carb intake) while preventing nitrogen losses (adequate protein intake). ull lose body fat at moderate caloric intake, but like it says above, a caloric surplus will eventually hit a threshold and fat's gunna be stored, EVEN if ur in ketosis.

Not to mention if you do consume "more than enough" protein as u put it, ur body WILL release insulin as protein is 58% anti-ketogenic (meaning, release of gylcogen: result: raising insulin: result: not in ketosis: result: fat oxidaton prohibited).

Not saying u weren't in keto but as far as "losing mad weight" and getting ripped by "Providing your body with more than enough fat and protein" and a caloric surplus.... NO sir!

[BlueRev]

pulled this directly from ketogenic diet by lyle mcdonald...

"Strangely, some individuals have reported that they can over consume calories on a
ketogenic diet without gaining as much fat as would be expected. While this seems to contradict
basic thermodynamics, it may be that the excess dietary fat is excreted as excess ketones rather
than being stored. Frequently these individuals note that urinary ketone levels as measured by
Ketostix are much deeper when they over consume calories. Obviously at some point a
threshold is reached where fat consumption is higher than utilization, and fat will be stored."

The point of a keto diet is NOT to consume less than what ur body needs. It's to maximize fat oxidation and minimize muscle loss and protein catabolism. That's done by raising glucagon lvls and lowering insulin lvls (which is PRIMARILY a direct result of dietary carb intake) while preventing nitrogen losses (adequate protein intake). ull lose body fat at moderate caloric intake, but like it says above, a caloric surplus will eventually hit a threshold and fat's gunna be stored, EVEN if ur in ketosis.

Not to mention if you do consume "more than enough" protein as u put it, ur body WILL release insulin as protein is 58% anti-ketogenic (meaning, release of gylcogen: result: raising insulin: result: not in ketosis: result: fat oxidaton prohibited).

Not saying u weren't in keto but as far as "losing mad weight" and getting ripped by "Providing your body with more than enough fat and protein" and a caloric surplus.... NO sir!

Raped.

[123456123]

do you have photo??