Bulk/cut....vs stay lean and gain slow.....Advice

[induced_drag]

I posted this in my journal...but wanted to put it out here in hopes someone with experience could help guide me a little.

I first want to say, I have never maintained low body fat (10% range). My body always seemed to like a chubbier 15% or so.

Going on 8 weeks of a very slow cut. (aprox 200-300cal/day) The first few weeks weight was coming off steady. But I have been stagnant for 3 weeks. I however decided not to adjust calories at all because I continue to get leaner. (slowly) My vascularity is a good indicator of this for me. There are a few in my shoulders that start to pop a little as I lean out and also on my triceps. Because I have seen steady progress in leaning, I am just going to keep things the same.

What bothers me a little is my strength is pretty stagnant. My bench is down almost 30 lbs from when I 'fatter' and my squat and deadlift have suffered too. Prior to this 8 weeks of slow cutting, I was on a 10 week surplus of 500cal/day and saw a 1lb/week gain. (some fat...but about 3-4 lbs of muscle over this time gained) When I am on caloric surplus, I just seem to be able to bang out my workouts so easily. Now I am kinda dragging.

I kind of wonder if I might be better served increasing my deficit, and throwing in cardio and just cutting faster...then getting back to 'normal'. Why I have not done this, is I am trying to find just what it will take to maintain a lean physique year round on diet and gym alone. (not relying on cardio to stay lean). I think over time, I could live with the strength being down, if I can maintain 10% +/- year round.

I have always felt like I needed to eat 'big' to grow. I kind of worry that I am wasting time for mass gaining staying stagnant (not on caloric surplus). I guess this is my big 'experiment' personally for the bulk/cut philosophy vs the stay lean and gain slow. I just hope I dont look back after doing this a while and feel like I wasted this time.

This has also taken it's toll on me mentally. I have really been feeling 'small' lately. I think a lot has to do with not being carbed up for so long and I feel really flat. I just have that scrawny feeling.

In honor of 2ndChance,....I was in the gym last night and did my best to take some 'beast' pictures. (below)Sometimes pics tell a better story then just looking in the mirror....I was feeling a little better after seeing these...but still woke up this morning and looked in the mirror and felt like I was about 150......Ug.....the mental part of trying to get lean is the hardest for me! One interesting thing to note...in the last picture, you can see the effect that my broken collarbone has had on my development. In this pic my shoulders are forward (vs retracted in the other pic) Look at the differences in my traps.....pretty striking. The whole geometry of my shoulder is f'd up pretty bad and makes training difficult at times. (although I dont think about it much anymore...just learned to deal with it)

[ironwill2008]

Some Saturday morning rambling on my part on this topic:

This has also taken it's toll on me mentally. I have really been feeling 'small' lately. I think a lot has to do with not being carbed up for so long and I feel really flat. I just have that scrawny feeling.

I don't know how to advise you here, other than to say you just have to find your own path. I know from experience that it can be very unnerving to watch the scale drop during a cut. You just need to accept what the mirror and progress pics are telling you. We've all seen 175 pound guys who look much bigger that they weigh; for bodybuilders, it's not about how much you weigh, but how much you look like you weigh.



IMO, the "bulk and cut" cycle is a big waste of time and effort. Eating to a large excess in order to "add weight" will eventually at some point leave most people with the difficult task of trying to lose the chub while at the same time attempting to do it while still retaining muscle mass. A difficult feat to pull off without micro-managing everything, all the time during the 'cut.' Average Joe isn't going to want to deal with all the details for very long.

Again, IMO, a much saner approach is to eat at a slight calorie surplus, and adding "weight" slowly. If training is correct, and recovery is adequate, the majority of the gain will be muscle, with minimal body fat to have to deal with down the road.

Yeah, yeah, I know; it's "easier" to put on muscle with the "See Food" approach. Or so it's said. I've never seen anything in print to convince me that's entirely true.

[MecGen]

I posted this in my journal...but wanted to put it out here in hopes someone with experience could help guide me a little.

Dude with your body and your experience you should be giving the advice, (thats meant as a compliment). Are you going for a full competition ready body?

Regards

[jayluk4600]

I really cannot offer much advice on your current dilemma as I have always just been kinda chubby. But I can comment on some of the stuff you mentioned.

The looking in the mirror and feeling small thing. dude I do this every morning, thats why I start to drop get to about 255 and think OMG I LOOK LIKE A TWIG, where did my shoulders go, where did my arms go.. then I go back up to 265 -270. Then I drop it again to about 255 same thing happens. I have literally been doing this the last 5 or 6 months. ATM I am 261 and in the mirror this morn I felt like I was very very small. Then went to the gym and one of the trainers was like DAMN dude you are lean and huge you prepping to compete ?.. I was like huh wtf you talking about man. I apparently see a diff pic of myself then the world sees. And looking at your "beast pics" you look beastly and cut not small and wimpy.

What I know about you is you are very detailed oriented and very organized and I am guessing all you need to do is just make a decision how you wanna roll. You know how to do it, whatever you do. And as far as looking back and thinking you wasted time, well if you do a certain thing and you realize it isnt for you then it really wasnt wasted time I would chalk it up to a learning experience.

Good luck I_D

[induced_drag]

I don't know how to advise you here, other than to say you just have to find your own path......

Again, IMO, a much saner approach is to eat at a slight calorie surplus, and adding "weight" slowly. If training is correct, and recovery is adequate, the majority of the gain will be muscle, with minimal body fat to have to deal with down the road.

Yeah, yeah, I know; it's "easier" to put on muscle with the "See Food" approach. Or so it's said. I've never seen anything in print to convince me that's entirely true.

Thanks Ironwill....this is more of a mental struggle then anything. I am just hoping to find the answer so I can move forward with confidence. Again...I dont want to look back and feel the 'could have, would have, should have's'....after a period of time. I do know there is no one definite answer though. I am hoping to see that someone else has had success staying lean and making decnet gains. (that being a person who is not naturally lean to begin with)

Dude with your body and your experience you should be giving the advice, (thats meant as a compliment). Are you going for a full competition ready body?

Regards

Thank you for the compliment. I know enough to know that I dont know it all! Despite years of training experience, I am new to this idea of controlling my intake. I had been away from the gym for some time and I am right at the 7 month mark back in.

I can and will say from my experience, controlling and meeting your nutritional needs (proper macros), ON A DAILY basis, and WITHOUT EXCEPTION has been the biggest boost EVER to my training. I feel I have made good progress for 7 months. The biggest difference is meeting my nutritional needs.

As for competition.....I dont have any plans. My goal right now is to be in the best shape of my life by 40. (I have about a year and a half). My micro goals, are to improve workout to workout....(something that has been hard to maintain under slight caloric deficit). I am so used to getting continually stronger...even after years of training, I still always saw increases here and there.

I may have to re-evaluate just what my goals are because maintaining low body fat and high strength do not seem to work well together with me. I will have to evaluate in time. This will be a big adjustment.

I really cannot offer much advice on your current dilemma as I have always just been kinda chubby. But I can comment on some of the stuff you mentioned.

The looking in the mirror and feeling small thing. dude I do this every morning, thats why I start to drop get to about 255 and think OMG I LOOK LIKE A TWIG, where did my shoulders go, where did my arms go.. then I go back up to 265 -270. Then I drop it again to about 255 same thing happens. I have literally been doing this the last 5 or 6 months. ATM I am 261 and in the mirror this morn I felt like I was very very small. Then went to the gym and one of the trainers was like DAMN dude you are lean and huge you prepping to compete ?.. I was like huh wtf you talking about man. I apparently see a diff pic of myself then the world sees. And looking at your "beast pics" you look beastly and cut not small and wimpy.

What I know about you is you are very detailed oriented and very organized and I am guessing all you need to do is just make a decision how you wanna roll. You know how to do it, whatever you do. And as far as looking back and thinking you wasted time, well if you do a certain thing and you realize it isnt for you then it really wasnt wasted time I would chalk it up to a learning experience.

Good luck I_D

Thanks man....you are a beast dude! Yea the mental struggle is a great one. I was so discouraged this morning.....then my wife came in and said I was beginning to look like Popeye..... I agree that we are not good judges of ourselves. Caloric deficits seem to mess with our heads!

As for your last bit of advice about not looking at it as wasted time.....I think you are 100% on with that. Nothing can replace experience. But, like everyone, we all want it yesterday. Impatience never goes away and there is always a feeling I could be doing something better.

[jmborr]

I have really been feeling 'small' lately

the pics don't indicate that great job!

[ectoBgone]

Going on 8 weeks of a very slow cut. (aprox 200-300cal/day) The first few weeks weight was coming off steady. But I have been stagnant for 3 weeks. I however decided not to adjust calories at all because I continue to get leaner. (slowly) My vascularity is a good indicator of this for me. There are a few in my shoulders that start to pop a little as I lean out and also on my triceps. Because I have seen steady progress in leaning, I am just going to keep things the same.

What bothers me a little is my strength is pretty stagnant. My bench is down almost 30 lbs from when I 'fatter' and my squat and deadlift have suffered too. Prior to this 8 weeks of slow cutting, I was on a 10 week surplus of 500cal/day and saw a 1lb/week gain. (some fat...but about 3-4 lbs of muscle over this time gained) When I am on caloric surplus, I just seem to be able to bang out my workouts so easily. Now I am kinda dragging.

Just a few thoughts:

1. Awesome thick, upper body!

2. While our body types are a bit different, I still run into the same issue of stalling out on cuts that run over 6-8 weeks or so, usually when I am down to about 12%. One thing I have not done, and believe that it has affected the end of my cuts, is having targeted (that is, intelligently planned) refeeds. I was just reading a really long thread with Q and A with Layne Norton yesterday and have been persuaded to try them next time. Here is a good summary from one of his articles, why they are good, and how to do them:

One should also incorporate re-feeds into their diet plan. Re-feeds help boost a hormone called leptin, which is the mother of all fat burning hormones. As one diets, leptin levels drop in an attempt by the body to spare body fat. Periodic, proper re-feeding can raise leptin levels and help one continue to burn fat an optimum rate. A person who is lean will need to re-feed more frequently than someone who has a higher body fat percentage. For those who are below 10%, it is probably a wise idea to incorporate re-feeds two times per week.

For those people who are in the 10-15% range, re-feeding every 6-12 days will probably be adequate, for those who are above 15%, re-feeding will probably not need to be done more than once every week to two weeks. Obviously as one loses body fat they will need to re-feed more often.

Re-Feed Days Should Be Planned As Follows:

Re-feed on the day you work your worst body part(s) as re-feeding will not only raise leptin, but be quite anabolic.
Keep fat as low as possible during re-feed days as high insulin levels will increase dietary fat transport into adipose tissue. In addition dietary fat has little to no impact on leptin levels.
Reduce protein intake to 1 g/lb bodyweight.
Consume as little fructose as possible as fructose does not have an impact on leptin levels.
Increase calories to maintenance level (or above if you are an ectomorph) and increase carbs by at least 50-100% (endo’s stay on the low end, while ecto’s should stay on the high end) over normal
diet levels.

3. Because I really hate these prolonged cuts, I am also going to start using shorter cycles. I will probably do something like cut one to two pounds for every three I gain, depending on how much appears to be fat. Something like 8-12 week gaining cycles followed by about 4 or so of leaning out. This will be mentally refreshing, because 8-12 week cut cycles or longer really start getting difficult sometimes. So, in your case, since you are more gifted in the mass aspect than the leanness, perhaps you could shorten your cycles so that you gain three pounds, cut two, rinse, repeat until you hit the leanness levels you want.

My $.02, good luck.

[2nd_chance]

ID... my guess is that you're going to continue to experiment with all of the above until you find that sweet spot, which is OK. For me, and I suspect you, I get addicted to progress - i.e., change in the mirror; therefore, when eating slightly above maintenance and progress seems stagnant in the mirror, I'll usually go on a "cut" because it's the quickest route to change in body composition. But after a while, usually 4-6 weeks, I'm ready for some increased strength and added bulk. So there you see... I'm no help at all lol. Sorry. Just know you're not alone.

[dawoodr]

are teens aloud to say something here or just grown ups here?

[2nd_chance]

are teens aloud to say something here or just grown ups here?

Speak on broseph

[JTraining]

In between land will frustrate the hell out of you mentally. If you want to cut...set a bodyfat goal and stick to it without getting caught in the "in between land" and just deal with the fractional loss of mass & strength. If you want to bulk....set a max bodyfat goal and do it clean without getting caught in "the in between land" and deal with some loss of vascularity & ab definition. If you want to muddle around the same maintenance with small fluctuations in body fat then stay in the "in between land".

The toughest part is making the mental decision to commit to the change.

BTW.....it is really easy to give this advice and tough to implement personally. I deal with the same mental challenge especially now when gains come by so slowly and take so much more effort than in years 1-3.

[ntrllftr]

Typically when I lose some weight my lifts go down a little as well. When I stay at that lower weight and keep pushing heavy weights I get back up to where I was when I weighed more. That takes a couple months or so. So, I say not to gain any of the weight back stick it out for a while and see.

As for the mind F*** thing... I'm sure you have read some of my threads/posts over time and can see that many of us go through this. I have realized that this feeling will be with some of us for our whole lifetime. Never satisfied! BUT that's what seperates the select few from the average lifter. Striving for mOAr!!!
Is it a good thing? As a competitive person or those who want to excell, yes. Is it frustrating and don't know how to overcome it? You bet!
It's a double edged sword.

I say to get down ta a lower bodyweight and stick to it for at least 3 months. After that time evaluate your situation with photos/mirror and what compliments you get if any.

[dawoodr]

My advice would be that you should cut a little faster if you want to cut. You will feel a little more tired and you will be weaker in the gym.
Cutting for a very long time can be really hard and you will often think that you are wasting your time. Just get pretty good amount of protein so you don't break down the muscles and cut faster.

This is my (opinion), I was fat from the beginning and struggled there too, just trying to help.

[robwein83]

I think you'd benefit by bringing your calories down further, or increasing a bit more cardio to see how you respond. It's good to take some breaks too. I noticed that my body responded so nicely to cutting for a long period and then bringing it back up to maintenance for 2 weeks, cut again for about a month or two, then maintained for about a month and then cut again. Really focusing too on keeping your carbs mostly around your workout and cycling.

I think cutting should be done this way. I know that you are working toward your ultimate goal of being super lean, but especially if you are not competing OR if you can work this into your regime, I think that you will only get to your goal faster and look great year around. Once you get your body to catch up and fill up while being lean, your body seems to adapt to that level of leanness and then keep your bulks more manageable.

[induced_drag]

Just a few thoughts:

1....One thing I have not done, and believe that it has affected the end of my cuts, is having targeted (that is, intelligently planned) refeeds. I was just reading a really long thread with Q and A with Layne Norton yesterday and have been persuaded to try them next time. Here is a good summary from one of his articles, why they are good, and how to do them:



3. Because I really hate these prolonged cuts, I am also going to start using shorter cycles. ....

First I wanted to say thanks for the suggestions. They all help and certainly deserve consideration. It is nice to see that this is a common struggle.

I wanted to specifically comment on Ectobgone's post.

The layne norton quote was very informative. I have been doing something similar.....but not using re-feeds. I carb cycle. The way I have it structured, I believe that I am eating at least maintenance 2-3 days a week. As I said, I designed this as a very slow cut to see what would happen.

I have to wonder if I am putting myself in JTraining's 'in between land' with this though.

Here is how my diet is structured:

I am pretty sure my BMR is about 2850 range +/-

My macro breakdown is as follows. My fat and pro DO NOT change from day to day
Fat=90g
Pro=235g

My carbs cycle daily.

Mon 285 (workout day) High Carbs split AM and Post workout
Tues 171
Wed 228(workout day)Moderate carb
Thurs 171
Fri 285(workout day) High carb
Sat 171
Sun 228


So you can see on my high carb days (2/week) I actually eat 50 above maint.(2900) On my two moderate days....I am about 200 under (2660) and on my 3 lower carb days I am about 500 under. (2440)
This averages out to a daily deficit of 200 cal /day

I structured it like this to see if I could avoid metabolic slow-down and see if I could find that magic window where I can get and stay lean while still gaining some mass. This almost seems to be what is happening...as I am staying the same weight...but slowly leaning out....but I am not feeling great mentally.....Yea I know...

After reading Laynes article, I think something to consider would be to bump up my carbs even MORE on high carb days, and cut fat back...(so I keep the cals the same) I am wondering if this would help me got past that "flat" feeling in my muslces and lack of endurance in the gym. Very interesting idea.... I could say cut to 50 grams fat (cutting 40 g) and replace with 90g carbs on those two days.

Another consideration I have is just to bump up the 200 cals....and ride it for a while and see if strength comes back. What I am worried about is I like the leanness that is coming in and my ultimate goal is to maintain a lean physique at a level leaner then I am now..(maybe 5 lbs of fat???I dont know...I will know it when I see it)

I am wondering if I am asking for the impossible..... What, ...we cant have it all?!

[Bo_Flecks]

I was just reading a really long thread with Q and A with Layne Norton yesterday and have been persuaded to try them next time.

I followed Norton's cut techniques last October when I was prepping for Reality House and found that they worked extremely well. I followed them to the letter with the two re-feeds per week along with the HIIT on off training days.

I decided to experiment with a short bulk over the winter, and did NOT like the results. So, I made the decision to cut the bulk off by using Norton's method again, but I only went with one re-feed per week, and cut out the HIIT. It led to pretty much the exact results for me.

Right now I am just trying to keep my bodyfat within 15lbs of contest weight and try to add as much lean mass as possible in the next year. I only want to have to cut for 16 weeks. I will use the Norton protocol again next summer when the prep begins.

[induced_drag]

I followed Norton's cut techniques last October when I was prepping for Reality House and found that they worked extremely well. I followed them to the letter with the two re-feeds per week along with the HIIT on off training days.

I decided to experiment with a short bulk over the winter, and did NOT like the results. So, I made the decision to cut the bulk off by using Norton's method again, but I only went with one re-feed per week, and cut out the HIIT. It led to pretty much the exact results for me.

Right now I am just trying to keep my bodyfat within 15lbs of contest weight and try to add as much lean mass as possible in the next year. I only want to have to cut for 16 weeks. I will use the Norton protocol again next summer when the prep begins.

Your composition has always impressed me. Even more-so when you say you are not naturally lean to begin with. I think someone like you can provide some real insight. I have always eaten big to get big. Have you been able to stay at your level of bodyfat and still see good lean mass gains?

It is funny, because there I have seen several articles coming out against bulk/cut and promoting this idea for natural trainees, staying lean leads to better progress in the end. Your experience and insight on this is very much appreciated!

[Bo_Flecks]

I am sitting in a wedding right now-lol. I'll put something together and post it up when I get home.

[2nd_chance]

I am sitting in a wedding right now-lol. I'll put something together and post it up when I get home.

What's the score of the game?

[Tommy W.]

Wow lots going on here. First off I think you are way too critical of yourself and especially your perceived smallness. You look great!

As far as going down on your lifts, if your goal is getting leaner you'll have to not care so much about what how much you're lifting but how you're looking. Just lean out with a 30 cal defecit per pound of bodyfat. Your cals go UP as you lean out which will spare your muscle loss. Whatever you do with your body you can always change it back to how it was before. It's like cutting your hair short, if you don't like it you can just grow it back.
And yes getting caught in the Twilight Zone of not losing fat and not gaining muscle is a huge dilemma.

Once you get where you like what you look like just maintain it.

[induced_drag]

Wow lots going on here. First off I think you are way too critical of yourself and especially your perceived smallness. You look great!

As far as going down on your lifts, if your goal is getting leaner you'll have to not care so much about what how much you're lifting but how you're looking. Just lean out with a 30 cal defecit per pound of bodyfat. Your cals go UP as you lean out which will spare your muscle loss. Whatever you do with your body you can always change it back to how it was before. It's like cutting your hair short, if you don't like it you can just grow it back.
And yes getting caught in the Twilight Zone of not losing fat and not gaining muscle is a huge dilemma.

Once you get where you like what you look like just maintain it.

Tommy.....thanks for the response. Thank you as well for the compliment. I want to be sure that you guys out there know I am not fishing for compliments and yes,....deep down I know I am not 150lbs.... I was just conveying that feeling you seem to sink into where you are not feeling great and feeling like you are shrinking up...etc.

You hit on my point exactly though. My biggest fear is being caught in the 'twilight zone' as you put it. Neither gaining or losing....(both muscle and fat) I structured my current diet to see if I could serve both masters....getting and staying lean and also gaining mass... I am just questioning my thought process of doing such a slight cut.

With my carb cycling, it throws a twist in because I am actually eating above maint twice a week...

I was just thinking out loud.....should I just speed up the cut then go surplus....or can you really ride that razor line where you can actually gain mass and lean out very slowly. And if yes....is this an efficient way to go?

[bamazav]

What's the score of the game?

BAMA won that is all that matters.

Great advise and great thread. I am looking to learn as you are ID. You have a good start, listen to the wisdom given in here and be patient and you will be fine.

[Tommy W.]

Tommy.....thanks for the response. Thank you as well for the compliment. I want to be sure that you guys out there know I am not fishing for compliments and yes,....deep down I know I am not 150lbs.... I was just conveying that feeling you seem to sink into where you are not feeling great and feeling like you are shrinking up...etc.

You hit on my point exactly though. My biggest fear is being caught in the 'twilight zone' as you put it. Neither gaining or losing....(both muscle and fat) I structured my current diet to see if I could serve both masters....getting and staying lean and also gaining mass... I am just questioning my thought process of doing such a slight cut.

With my carb cycling, it throws a twist in because I am actually eating above maint twice a week...

I was just thinking out loud.....should I just speed up the cut then go surplus....or can you really ride that razor line where you can actually gain mass and lean out very slowly. And if yes....is this an efficient way to go?

Just eat at a small surplus every day. If you're training is correct for hypertrophy very little of the cals will go to fat. Once you get to or close to your genetic max you'll start seeing more fat gain. At that point just reel in the cals a bit.

At your level it will be extremely difficult to lose fat and gain lean mass at the same time. Pick one and stick with it remembering it takes a few weeks for your body to change gears, so you can't keep jumping around with indecision on what to do.

[Bo_Flecks]

Your composition has always impressed me. Even more-so when you say you are not naturally lean to begin with. I think someone like you can provide some real insight. I have always eaten big to get big. Have you been able to stay at your level of bodyfat and still see good lean mass gains?

After I had my heart procedure in 2006, I dropped my weight down from 235lbs to 162lbs. For the first couple of years I weight trained, I followed a very common training cycle of bulking in the fall and winter, then cutting in the spring so I could show off my hard work throughout the summer. Typically I would run my body fat up for seven months of the year, spend about twelve weeks cutting, and then hold it down for the swimsuit season. I felt like I was spending about half of the year not really making any gains.

Late in 2008, I ran across a Bodybuilding.com article that intrigued me. It was titled, "Skip the Bulk and Stay Shredded All Year - A Simple Approach To Nutrition!" by Stuart Schaefer:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/eating_made_simple.htm
The article outlined how to eat just the right amount of food to grow muscle, but not gain excess fat.

I have been using that method for the last three years to keep my body fat relatively low and reasonably constant, but continue make lean gains. I did experiment with a very deep cut a year ago using the Layne Norton cut techniques to see how my body would respond to it. But, over the last three years, I have averaged about 5lbs of lean mass gained each year. Nothing stellar, but probably a bit over the average for guys in my age bracket.


Okay, proof that I can get fat-. Taken just after I had the heart procedure.


Summer 2009- 174lbs


Summer 2010- 180lbs


Summer 2011- 185lbs

Right now I am trying to keep my fat levels within about 15lbs or so from what I believe will be my contest weight next fall. I want to be able to cut the weight very slowly to minimize catabolism, and not have to spend more than 16 weeks at a calorie deficit. At this point, I believe that I am right on target.

[induced_drag]

......
I have been using that method for the last three years to keep my body fat relatively low and reasonably constant, but continue make lean gains. I did experiment with a very deep cut a year ago using the Layne Norton cut techniques to see how my body would respond to it. But, over the last three years, I have averaged about 5lbs of lean mass gained each year. Nothing stellar, but probably a bit over the average for guys in my age bracket.
...

Awesome insight. I think that is part of the answer I was looking for. You obviously have gained mass while staying lean.

In this whole bulk/cut vs stay lean debate I will share my recent experience.
When I first came back to the gym, my gains were through the roof for the first 4-5 months....after leveling off, I decided I needed to take some drastic measures to keep putting on mass.

I embarked on a 10 week bulk at a 500 surplus...and just like clockwork....I just over a lb per week for a total 11lb gain.

Pics Before pic is 182 after pic is 193





After reaching where I felt like I was picking up too much fat I decided to cut back down...which is when I went on this very slight cut of 200 cal/day.
After switching to deficit, I saw a 4 lb drop in the first two week. (assuming it was water from reduced carbs and possibly glycogen)
Then over the next few weeks it settled in with three more lbs total lost where I have now been staying...so I lost back 7 of the 11 lbs I gained.....

Or aprox 4lbs of real gain in 10 weeks of bulking and then 8 weeks of cutting....or 18 weeks total. This works out to about 1lb / month at that rate.

This was me the other day. Kind of bloated in the pic cause it was a high carb day. (I will gain about 6-7lbs scale weight on high carb days)


While those gains are not bad, I did not enjoy the getting fatter part....and the length of time I spent where I felt like I was looking pudgy again.
I did enjoy the workouts while on surplus and the strength spike.

So that brings me to this topic,....

Would I have just been better served not to have done the true bulk/cut protocol....and just tried to eat just a small amt above maintenance.

The million dollar question now!....Would I still have been able to gain the mass?.....or as much?.....

In closing, my goals right now are gain quality muscle mass. no 1. and I am also liking being leaner.... and the way it feels not to have a 'gut'.

Ultimate goal....maintain aprox 10% year round without being a cardio slave.

[induced_drag]

Ok...after taking looking at this for a while here is what I am going to do.

First I went and had a nice dirty re-feed tonight! First time I have blown my macros in ....well...probably 6 months. A nice visit to qdoba for a nice steak burrito....had a soda to go with it and an order of chips and queso...could not help but take the kids for icecream after....and I indulged in a little......So I ended up about 400 cals over where I was supposed to hit today....not too bad.

OK now the real part..... I am going to keep the carb cycling and keep calories right where they are for now....but I am going to switch up my 2 "high carb' days....to HIGHER carb days. The way I am going to accomplish this, is by stealing from my fat intake for the day. My normal daily intake is 90g so for my 2 'higher' carb days, I will drop this to 50 and use those calories to get an extra 90 g of carbs on those days.

This fits with what Layne Norton suggests for his refeed days (lower fat higher carb). I am going to divide up these carbs between first thing am (add back in some oatmeal), some preworkout/intra dextrose, and my postworkout shake. (a high carb shake from apple juice, oatmeal, bananas, strawberries, and whey)

I am going to run like this for a bit and see if I start feeling better in the gym. I am hoping the great carbs on workout days will leave me less 'flat' feeling.

I will try this for a few weeks, monitor strength and mood....if this does not have the desired effect, I am going to up 500 cals/day for two weeks and then go on a real deficit of 500cal/day till I get the midsection leaned out a little better....then go to a slight surplus (aprox 200cal/day) as was suggested.

Thanks for all the input and help everyone.

[JTraining]

May the force be with you!

[jayluk4600]

I read all that and man dude your so organizied. My approach would be.. ok 2 less burritos on those days and 1 more slice of pizza on these days !

Serious my calorie tracking sheet has 4 columns. Date, food, amount of cal, and amount of protein. Which is why I will never be elite but I guess I work the best I can with the limited brains god gave me lol.

Good luck man.

[induced_drag]

I really never thought I would be a 'logger'...but now 7 months into it, I can imagine not doing it.

For the first time in my life I feel like I am 100% in control of my body composition. It is very empowering. Also....first time in 15+ years my waist in down to 31".....from a 36.5!

I am just torn between the two goals of gain muscle or lose fat!

It really is not all that hard to track. In fact, I just planned my food for tomorrow.

My workout will be about 2 hours after I eat my "lunch". The 4 tbs of dextrose in there will be split. 2 consumed 15 prior to w/o and the other 2 in my intra waterbottle with my BCAA's. My Mid afternoon Snack is my PWO shake.


Here it is:...Looks like I had to go 1%milk for these days to keep my fat down...been drinking whole!

[Payton1221]

I'm late to the party after being out all weekend, but there has been some great dialogue going on here. It's nice to know that others struggle with some of these same decisions. I presently am cutting, and 2nd chance sums it up very well:

I'll usually go on a "cut" because it's the quickest route to change in body composition.

I've lost about 6 lbs in 4 weeks, and I can see quite a difference already. I've got a few more pounds to go, but like you ID, I'm going to get lean and stay there. I was brought into the logging of food kicking and screaming, but now, I love it! It really does give you real control over your body composition. I hope you do get this figured out, and when you do, I hope that what works for you will work for others too