Anyone that says wrestling is the best base for MMA should just kill themselves

[HardGainer82]

soooo what makes me any more than a "nobody" at wrestling?

I only asked you a simple question. You refer to them as "gurus." Are you speaking sarcastically? Are they actual competitors who train and have rank? Or just guys who watch the UFC and think they know how to do an armbar?

No need to get so defensive.

[Kevin204]

Top 3 at each weight via Sherdog

155: Edgar, Melendez, Maynard

170: GSP, Shields, Fitch

185: Silva, Sonnen, Okami

205: Jones, Shogun, Evans

HW: Cain, Lesnar, Werdum

10/15 have a wrestling foundation, with GSP having a karate background but few would argue his biggest strength is his wrestling.

No one is saying you can get by with ONLY wrestling, or that you HAVE to have a wrestling foundation so succeed, but on the average: it's the most reliable at producing high level fighters.

/thread

and I would definitely count GSP as a wrestler. He out wrestled Koscheck, Sherk, Hughes, and Penn (who is notoriously hard to take down, and control for that matter)

[RoccoTanno123]

/thread

and I would definitely count GSP as a wrestler. He out wrestled Koscheck, Sherk, Hughes, and Penn (who is notoriously hard to take down, and control for that matter)

I'd count Melendez mostly as a wrestler too. Okami is kinda iffy imo.

[WowWeakForum]

Brock Lesnar, bad a$$ wrestler, waltzes into the UFC and starts pulverizing everybody, until he is somewhat challenged by Carwin, another bad a$$ wreslter, but Brock is still able to pulverize him into submission, but then Brock is beaten by Cain, another bad a$$ wrestler


get a grip son

[Bamsha]

I think that when people say someone has a wrestling 'base' it means thats the discipline they knew before starting to train other disciplines for competing in MMA.

In this definition of base, I think it will be hard to find another discipline that will be more useful when you start completing your skill-set to become a true MMA-fighter.

[Exitar]

Where I'm from Wrestling is not a staple at schools like it is in the U.S, which is a serious disadvantage (judging from my own experience) if you're planning to enter MMA.

I started off with BJJ and Muay Thai but after sparring with a Wrestler it was seriously something I was very Jelly of.

I'm not small and I have K.O power in each hand, but I was getting rag dolled, treated like a toy. I could defend the first few take downs easily (Rugby background helped me there) but the relentlessness and gas tank on the guy. He was a former college wrestler in the U.S and once my stamina went it was pretty much 'prepare the anus' time for me.

Since then I've really taken to wrestling and like it a lot, very aggressive but controlled. It has been helpful for my BJJ in the fact that I get dominant positions a lot. I just wish it was part of the sports curriculum back in New Zealand, I think we could put out a few good Wrestlers and it would really help the MMA back home.

[LatsMakeTheMan]

Wrestling dictates where the fight goes. If you want it on the ground, you take your opponent down. If you want to keep it on the feet, takedown defense keeps it standing.

[TonytheOnly]

It is the best base... Joe Rogan said so















but seriously it is.

[Str1ke fear]

when UFC event was in Australia, Kenny Florian was asked about the best base question and he said wrestling, and also added that if he had the chance to go back and choose between wrestling and BJJ he would of DEFINATELY chosen wrestling and was well convinced, and kept repeating it, and suggested it to everyone... and kept mentioning how great GSP's wrestling was.

[neekz0r]

^^^This


Wrestling is the best base for MMA. A lot of judges are giving the guy who is on top more points now than the guy on the bottom, even if the guy on the bottom does more damage than the guy on top (arguably Marquardt vs. Sonnen). The guy on top is just in a better position to do damage, and when the guy on the bottom isn't doing a lot of damage or locking up subs, then the guy on top should naturally be given the advantage.

In a straight grappling match, a pure BJJ guy should beat a pure wrestler most of the time, as Gracie vs. Shamrock showed us. But a wrestler with BJJ sub defense like Matt Hughes, will dominate any pure BJJ guy anyday (Gracie vs. Hughes).

Its a lot easier to face top competition as a wrestler than it is as a BJJ since BJJ isn't taught in schools and tournaments are spread out. Wrestlers on the other hand, have easy transportation, no costs, and regularly scheduled tournaments to attend to. Plus, a weak wrestler will still be stronger than most strong BJJ guys anyway. I didn't even wrestle in high school or college and I believe this, btw.

This is actually a fairly well thought out argument, but I have to disagree. If you look back and MMA history, it's been proven that there is no such thing as a "good base". You must cross train and be proficient at all levels: wrestling for takedown/take down defense, striking, and grappling. Wrestling is by far better at take downs then BJJ is, but BJJ is way better then wrestling once it's on the ground. (see below for a more in depth response). And very true about wrestlers tending at being stronger and more explosive. Kind of. Again, see below.l

I only asked you a simple question. You refer to them as "gurus." Are you speaking sarcastically? Are they actual competitors who train and have rank? Or just guys who watch the UFC and think they know how to do an armbar?

No need to get so defensive.

As a blue belt in jiu jitsu, I've trained for 3 years. I can typically beat collegiate wrestlers who've trained for ten years. They give me a run for money, and some may be able to beat me (see: freaks like randy couture) but by and large, 3 years of training beating out 10 years of training at a competitive college level is pretty good. Oh, and they also tend to outweigh me.

I'm only a blue belt. blue belts are considered beginners. Do the math.

Also, to the uber wrestler who "wrestles juuizituz ****s" at the rec center, never have I heard a BJJ guy go "hey bro, you want to go to the rec center and grapple?" I too question what caliber of BJJ guys are hanging out at a rec center. I guarantee they aren't black belts.

[RoccoTanno123]

As a blue belt in jiu jitsu, I've trained for 3 years. I can typically beat collegiate wrestlers who've trained for ten years. They give me a run for money, and some may be able to beat me (see: freaks like randy couture) but by and large, 3 years of training beating out 10 years of training at a competitive college level is pretty good. Oh, and they also tend to outweigh me.

How well versed are these guys in submissions and submission defense?

[LatsMakeTheMan]

This is actually a fairly well thought out argument, but I have to disagree. If you look back and MMA history, it's been proven that there is no such thing as a "good base". You must cross train and be proficient at all levels: wrestling for takedown/take down defense, striking, and grappling. Wrestling is by far better at take downs then BJJ is, but BJJ is way better then wrestling once it's on the ground. (see below for a more in depth response). And very true about wrestlers tending at being stronger and more explosive. Kind of. Again, see below.l



As a blue belt in jiu jitsu, I've trained for 3 years. I can typically beat collegiate wrestlers who've trained for ten years. They give me a run for money, and some may be able to beat me (see: freaks like randy couture) but by and large, 3 years of training beating out 10 years of training at a competitive college level is pretty good. Oh, and they also tend to outweigh me.

I'm only a blue belt. blue belts are considered beginners. Do the math.

Also, to the uber wrestler who "wrestles juuizituz ****s" at the rec center, never have I heard a BJJ guy go "hey bro, you want to go to the rec center and grapple?" I too question what caliber of BJJ guys are hanging out at a rec center. I guarantee they aren't black belts.

You didn't say under what conditions you're beating the wrestlers, but if it's submission grappling, this argument is flawed. A wrestler essentially can't win a submission grappling contest because his ability to pin you is meaningless. So the BJJ guy can essentially roll around with him until he catches him with a submission.

I believe that wrestling is the harder sport to learn and become good at. Plenty of MMA fighters who cross-train become competent/passable at BJJ with a few years of training. But with the exception of GSP, nobody becomes great at wrestling without having an extensive background in it.

[Str1ke fear]

my opinion,

if a wrestler knows the basics of bjj, he will dominate a regular bjj grappler.

[ftwrestler]

I am so sick of hearing this incredibly moronic opinion. It has no basis in reality and has never been "proven" once in MMA. A fighter can have terrible wrestling (IE Anderson Silva) or barely use wrestling at all (Jose Aldo, BJ Penn, etc) and still be a top fighter or champion.

Anyone that says this is just talking out their ass. There is no "best base". There is only training your butt off.

all the champions have great wrestling

silva has good TD

GSP great wrestler
Edgar wrestler
jon jones great wrestling base
cain velasquez great wrestling base

4/5 champs are great wrestlers and use it as the foundation of their game

you fail

/thread

[neekz0r]

How well versed are these guys in submissions and submission defense?

Various levels, some have basics, some don't. The ones that have the basics are of course harder.

You didn't say under what conditions you're beating the wrestlers, but if it's submission grappling, this argument is flawed. A wrestler essentially can't win a submission grappling contest because his ability to pin you is meaningless. So the BJJ guy can essentially roll around with him until he catches him with a submission.

I believe that wrestling is the harder sport to learn and become good at. Plenty of MMA fighters who cross-train become competent/passable at BJJ with a few years of training. But with the exception of GSP, nobody becomes great at wrestling without having an extensive background in it.

Of course submission grappling -- that would be applicable to MMA, no? I mean, I'm sure they'd beat me at wrestling, but pinning someone to the mat isn't very applicable to MMA, as you yourself noted.

Eeerrrr, I don't think I agree with you at "competent/passable after a few years". I guess it means what you define as "competent/passable".

[neekz0r]

all the champions have great wrestling

silva has good TD

GSP great wrestler
Edgar wrestler
jon jones great wrestling base
cain velasquez great wrestling base

4/5 champs are great wrestlers and use it as the foundation of their game

you fail

/thread

Uh, they also have great striking and great BJJ skills. What the hell is your point? You don't get to be a champ by lacking one of the basics in MMA.

[ftwrestler]

Uh, they also have great striking and great BJJ skills. What the hell is your point? You don't get to be a champ by lacking one of the basics in MMA.

my point is that their base besides anderson silva lies in wrestling

the op's point is that a great wrestling base is not a good thing to have, which is clearly not true. having a wrestling base get you very far in the game. further than most strikers as far as i have seen

that is my point

[LatsMakeTheMan]

Various levels, some have basics, some don't. The ones that have the basics are of course harder.



Of course submission grappling -- that would be applicable to MMA, no? I mean, I'm sure they'd beat me at wrestling, but pinning someone to the mat isn't very applicable to MMA, as you yourself noted.

Eeerrrr, I don't think I agree with you at "competent/passable after a few years". I guess it means what you define as "competent/passable".

I would define "competent/passable" as being well-versed enough in BJJ to avoid getting submitted, and able to pull off a simple submission or two when the opportunity presents itself. Guys like John Jones, Matt Hamill and Franky Edgar have probably only been training BJJ for a few years or so. They don't submit anyone, but they don't get submitted either and thus their sub defense isn't a liability.

[neekz0r]

my point is that their base besides anderson silva lies in wrestling

the op's point is that a great wrestling base is not a good thing to have, which is clearly not true. having a wrestling base get you very far in the game. further than most strikers as far as i have seen

that is my point

Having a good base anywhere gets you far in the game. But you still have to cross train other disciplines. Just having good wrestling and you'll get smashed. Just having good striking and you'll get smashed. Just having good bjj and you'll get smashed.

[LatsMakeTheMan]

Having a good base anywhere gets you far in the game. But you still have to cross train other disciplines. Just having good wrestling and you'll get smashed. Just having good striking and you'll get smashed. Just having good bjj and you'll get smashed.

I don't think anyone here is denying that. We aren't discussing the merits of cross training. We're discussing which martial art provides the best jumping off point from which to learn others.

[ftwrestler]

Having a good base anywhere gets you far in the game. But you still have to cross train other disciplines. Just having good wrestling and you'll get smashed. Just having good striking and you'll get smashed. Just having good bjj and you'll get smashed.

i understand that, but good wrestling seems to get people further.

[racketteer]

I always thought wrestling was the better base. even standup guys need to have good takedown defense and grappling skills to keep the fight in their domain.

[RoccoTanno123]

You don't get to be a champ by lacking one of the basics in MMA.

Lesnar

[neekz0r]

Lesnar

What does he lack?

[racketteer]

What does he lack?

standup striking?

[ftwrestler]

What does he lack?

probably every discernible technique whilst standing

[neekz0r]

standup striking?

probably every discernible technique whilst standing

Bah. I stand corrected. I can't argue with that.

[ftwrestler]

Bah. I stand corrected. I can't argue with that.

it's ok to be wrong from time to time



i remember i was wrong this one time when i thought i made a mistake

[neekz0r]

it's ok to be wrong from time to time



i remember i was wrong this one time when i thought i made a mistake

[Wcustom]

listen on from 6:45

http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/04/0...nderpaid-figh/