Will substituting BCAAs for whey protein help me lose weight but maintain muscle?

[rhizome]

ITT people who don't understand the difference between gross energy, digestible energy, metabolizable energy and net energy and are improperly using the terms/values interchangably.

[JohnBrowne]

rhizome please aware us (srs)

[Kfrpower]

Not trying to argue if BCAAs have cals, not too worried about 4 cals/g if im only taking in ~10g per serving. I was just wondering if say I take away 100g of protein powder from my diet, but replace it with enough BCAAs to have equal leucine. Will that preserve the same amount of muscle? while equaling out to about 300 less cals, because I read muscle was compromised of about 80% leucine.

[snagency]

ITT people who don't understand the difference between gross energy, digestible energy, metabolizable energy and net energy and are improperly using the terms/values interchangably.

but sir - when i do a search on "metabolizable energy", all i get is hits for dog food!

and "digestible energy" brings up links on horse food!

it's all greek to me.

hell, i don't even know what "Atwater energy equivalent" means..



EDIT: ^^^ better clarify for (some) readers edification.. biting humor.

[snorkelman]

Not trying to argue if BCAAs have cals, not too worried about 4 cals/g if im only taking in ~10g per serving. I was just wondering if say I take away 100g of protein powder from my diet, but replace it with enough BCAAs to have equal leucine. Will that preserve the same amount of muscle? while equaling out to about 300 less cals, because I read muscle was compromised of about 80% leucine.

^^ Plenty of people employ that logic while on a strict cut. To each their own.

[snagency]

Not trying to argue if BCAAs have cals, not too worried about 4 cals/g if im only taking in ~10g per serving. I was just wondering if say I take away 100g of protein powder from my diet, but replace it with enough BCAAs to have equal leucine. Will that preserve the same amount of muscle? while equaling out to about 300 less cals, because I read muscle was compromised of about 80% leucine.

indeed, Snorkelman has it right. there are many paths to Rome, my friend.

for my .02, i would not change your protein ingestion at this point. 1.5g per/lb bw is very suitable for a cut. why would you want to eliminate 300-400cals from your diet in one fell swoop for, anyway?

in additon - i would also utilize BCAA within periWO timeframe..on top of the current amount of protein you are consuming.

if you are using a preWO powder that contains cals (typically from malto i.e. carb source), that would be what i would look to eliminate.

my approach is smaller increments of caloric reduction, given the amount of time you have left to prepare.

without explaining what your given caloric/macro range is, it is impossible to advise you how to or whether you need to adjust your protein intake alone.

[MikeK46]

i think outside the box on this topic, and do not have any science-y proof to support my stance, nor any nice studies to quote.

You also have a complete lack of understanding of what happens when you eat food, so your own personal theories are actually based on random thoughts which pop into your head.

BCAA bypasses digestion, and are absorbed directly to muscle tissue.

BCAA's are not absorbed "directly to muscle tissue." BCAA's are single amino acids. When you consume BCAA's, they can pass through the intestinal lining into the bloodstream, after which they can travel throughout the body.

Protein (which is just chains of amino acids) is first broken down by digestive enzymes and also becomes single amino acid molecules, which pass through the intestinal lining into the bloodstream, after which they can travel throughout the body.


Are you still following? I bolded the key points for you, which is that BCAA powder and protein powder both end up in the bloodstream as single amino acids. At this point it no longer makes a difference whether they began as BCAA powder, whey powder, or a piece of chicken. They are all one and the same by the time they're in your blood. Where they came from therefore has no effect on the fact that amino acids floating in the blood provide 4 calories per gram.

[JohnBrowne]

lol

reps on charge Mike

[snagency]

You also have a complete lack of understanding of what happens when you eat food, so your own personal theories are actually based on random thoughts which pop into your head.



BCAA's are not absorbed "directly to muscle tissue." BCAA's are single amino acids. When you consume BCAA's, they can pass through the intestinal lining into the bloodstream, after which they can travel throughout the body.

Protein (which is just chains of amino acids) is first broken down by digestive enzymes and also becomes single amino acid molecules, which pass through the intestinal lining into the bloodstream, after which they can travel throughout the body.


Are you still following? I bolded the key points for you, which is that BCAA powder and protein powder both end up in the bloodstream as single amino acids. At this point it no longer makes a difference whether they began as BCAA powder, whey powder, or a piece of chicken. They are all one and the same by the time they're in your blood. Where they came from therefore has no effect on the fact that amino acids floating in the blood provide 4 calories per gram.

lol

reps on charge Mike

LMAO........................

wow..small minds think alike, don't they?

Mike, did i hurt your feelings with my off-hand remark earlier of correcting your terminology? i really didn't mean in any offense, just a clarification of terms.

we had this SAME discussion here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=131493843

(which i think is the thread Ghosting and Snorkelman were actually referring to earlier)

after which, we conversed privately, and (i thought) had made a neutral meeting ground and understanding.

apparently, you either slept once or twice since then and forgot, or you just wish to join your small-minded friend above and decided to start **** again, and attempt to "educate" me.

in any event, altho your "expertise" leaves much to be desired, i'm not really concerned with attempting to educate you (again). i have grown tired of the petty mentality of some around here, all these experts who reel off (or try to) "textbook" answers that they read (erroneously so) from someone elses literature.

see - i typed the key points in BOLD for YOU, dude.

does that make my words more impactful for you, as you apparently think it does for me?

un****ingbelievable..

bottom line - believe what you want man. this is not academia here, it's bb.com. if it makes you feel better to try to slam ppl, or swing on John Browne's nuts (oh wait - i forgot he was swinging on yours, "reps on recharge"), more power to you.

me, i like having intelligent conversations. not engaging in childish back and forth. as i am sure you will have something to say in return, go ahead. i'll not bother with further response to you, as it is a ginormous waste of my time.

best of luck to you.

[DDon1996]

LMAO........................

wow..small minds think alike, don't they?

Mike, did i hurt your feelings with my off-hand remark earlier of correcting your terminology? i really didn't mean in any offense, just a clarification of terms.

we had this SAME discussion here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=131493843

(which i think is the thread Ghosting and Snorkelman were actually referring to earlier)

after which, we conversed privately, and (i thought) had made a neutral meeting ground and understanding.

apparently, you either slept once or twice since then and forgot, or you just wish to join your small-minded friend above and decided to start **** again, and attempt to "educate" me.

in any event, altho your "expertise" leaves much to be desired, i'm not really concerned with attempting to educate you (again). i have grown tired of the petty mentality of some around here, all these experts who reel off (or try to) "textbook" answers that they read (erroneously so) from someone elses literature.

see - i typed the key points in BOLD for YOU, dude.

does that make my words more impactful for you, as you apparently think it does for me?

un****ingbelievable..

bottom line - believe what you want man. this is not academia here, it's bb.com. if it makes you feel better to try to slam ppl, or swing on John Browne's nuts (oh wait - i forgot he was swinging on yours, "reps on recharge"), more power to you.

me, i like having intelligent conversations. not engaging in childish back and forth. as i am sure you will have something to say in return, go ahead. i'll not bother with further response to you, as it is a ginormous waste of my time.

best of luck to you.

Intelligent conversation =/= ad hominem ranting.

"Wow, you made a (true) statement? Rather than refute that intelligently, I'll refer to you as a dumbass nut swinger!"

[snagency]

Intelligent conversation =/= ad hominem ranting.

"Wow, you made a (true) statement? Rather than refute that intelligently, I'll refer to you as a dumbass nut swinger!"

exactly. but there's no point in talking intelligently, to someone who is only capable of being belligerent back.

i'll post a few nuggets to refute some of this nonsense. and an article, if i can find it.

first, as for BCAA metabolism:

Due to the way of BCAA’s metabolism, which occurs in the muscle rather than the liver, the effect of these branched chain amino acids is much quicker and efficient than of any other amino acid. After bcaa are digested, protein breaks down into individual amino acids that can either be used to build new proteins or become some sort of a fuel that produces energy for the body, thus enhances sports performance in a natural way. If your diet is balanced, branched chain amino acids will be used for protein synthesis, essential for endurance athlets and strenuous workouts.

BCAA's are also used to reduce fatigue in both anaerobic and endurance sports. Because of its anticatabolic properties and vital role in protein synthesis, leucine is considered to one of the most critical BCAA.

[snagency]

still searching for this specific article i'm looking for, while i'm multi-tasking here this morning (have to use other ppl's words, since i am accused of having a "complete lack of understanding of what happens when you eat food, so your own personal theories are actually based on random thoughts which pop into your head."

but here's an interesting roundtable discussion, showing differing viewpoints among the "experts" (many of whom you all have heard of, and run around quoting furiously)..

http://articles.elitefts.com/article...on-roundtable/

an excerpt from Layne Norton from this piece:

BCAAs are not metabolized to a significant extent by the small intestine or the liver.

the take home message from this discussion is, there is no definitive message.

but - isn't it nice to see that there are places ppl can have differing opinions, without being attacked personally for such?

[Joseph1990]

i'll not bother with further response to you, as it is a ginormous waste of my time.

best of luck to you.

^^^This right here is the pus boy trade mark.

"I am going to instigate an argument but I will not respond because my fingers are plugging my prefect ears and I am majestically prancing away from this the victor because I lol'd and smirked at the end makes me right gg no re k thanks."

but - isn't it nice to see that there are places ppl can have differing opinions, without being attacked personally for such?

Catching feelings over teh interwebz? LaWlzOrZ pL0x~!11!1!! Tell your momy to call Mikes mommy mr butthurt.

[snagency]

^^^ lol..

in 1990, i was in college..where were you?

more personal attacks from children. why am i not surprised?

[Joseph1990]

^^^ lol..

in 1990, i was in college..where were you?

more personal attacks from children. why am i not surprised?

Is that all you have to say? I was expecting a sad attempt to be funny and smart at the same time.

Wait what?

[snagency]

Is that all you have to say? I was expecting a sad attempt to be funny and smart at the same time.

nope.

looks like you have that one covered all by yourself, kiddo..

[Joseph1990]

nope.

looks like you have that one covered all by yourself, kiddo..

Same sad not funny irrelevant joke with no foundation again?

isthiselementaryschoolplayground?

[snagency]

anyway..back on track. still not the article i have in mind, but solid info here nonetheless.

BCAA's is the abbreviation for branched chain amino acids; the three essential amino acids that make up the BCAA's are leucine, isoleucine and valine. Unlike other amino acids, BCAA's are synthesized directly into muscle tissue and don't need to be processed by the liver first. The amino acids processed by the liver don't all make it to muscle tissue. They are used for energy and other important metabolic functions. In fact about 33% of all skeletal muscle is made up of combinations of the BCAA's, making it clear why they are important for building muscle. BCAA's are a key ingredient of a post workout snack or shake, especially when the muscles need a protein supply a.s.a.p. At this point, the muscles don't want to be hanging around waiting for the liver to metabolize other amino acids, of which not all will reach them.

[Joseph1990]

anyway..back on track. still not the article i have in mind, but solid info here nonetheless.

The amino acids processed by the liver don't all make it to muscle tissue. They are used for energy and other important metabolic functions.

In other words the body uses protein for other functions hence not building muscle and not as efficient as BCAA supplementation witch apparently goes straight to your muscles because you say so? If your protein intake is sufficient I don't see why this even matters. Mike has mentioned before that somewhere along the lines of half the protein you consume is not used for muscle building.

BCAA's are a key ingredient of a post workout snack or shake, especially when the muscles need a protein supply a.s.a.p. At this point, the muscles don't want to be hanging around waiting for the liver to metabolize other amino acids, of which not all will reach them.

Why dose this matter again? Is there not already a stream of amino acids in our bloodstream digested from your previous meals your body can use for the slow and not instantaneous process of protein synthesis?



Link to brotastic article would be nice.

[snagency]

Researchers have expended a considerable amount of effort on evaluating the effects of supplementation of branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs: leucine, isoleucine, and valine) on physiological and psychological responses to exercise (Blomstrandet al., 1991; Kreider, 1998; Wagenmakers,1998). There are two primary hypotheses regarding the ergogenic value of supplementation with these amino acids.

First, BCAA supplementation has been reported to decrease exercise-induced protein degradation and/or muscle enzyme release (an indicator of muscle damage) possibly by promoting an anti-catabolic hormonal profile (Carli et al., 1992;Coombes and McNaughton, 1995).Theoretically, BCAA supplementation during intense training may help minimize protein degradation and thereby lead to greater gains in fat-free mass. Although several studies support this hypothesis, additional research is necessary to determine the long-term effects of BCAA supplementation during training on markers of catabolism, body composition, and strength (Kreider,1998).

Second, the availability of BCAA during exercise has been theorized to contribute to central fatigue (Newsholmeet al., 1991). During endurance exercise, BCAAs are taken up by the muscles rather than the liver in order to contribute to oxidative metabolism. The source of BCAAs for muscular oxidative metabolismduring exercise is the plasma BCAA pool, which is replenished through the catabolism of whole body proteins during endurance exercise (Davis, 1995; Kreider,1998; Newsholme et al., 1991). However, the oxidation of BCAAs in the muscle during prolonged exercise may exceed the catabolic capacity to increase BCAA availability, so plasma BCAA concentration may decline during prolonged endurance exercise (Blomstrand etal., 1988; Blomstrand et al., 1991).The decline in plasma BCAAs during endurance exercise can result in an increase in the ratio of free tryptophan to BCAAs. Free tryptophan and BCAAs compete for entry into the brain via the same amino-acid carrier (Newsholme et al., 1991). Therefore, a decrease in BCAAs in the blood facilitates entry of tryptophan into the brain. Moreover, most tryptophan in the blood is bound to albumin, and the proportion of tryptophan bound to albumin is influenced by the availability of long-chained fatty acids (Davis et al., 1992; Newsholmeet al., 1991). In endurance exercise free fatty-acid concentration rises, so the amount of tryptophan bound to albumin falls, increasing the concentration of free tryptophan in the blood(Davis, 1995).

Collectively, the decline in plasma BCAAs and increase in free tryptophan during prolonged endurance exercise alters the ratio of free tryptophan to BCAAs and increases the entry of tryptophan into the brain (Newsholme et al., 1991). An increased concentration of tryptophan in the brain promotes the formation of the neurotransmitter 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT). 5-HT has been shown to induce sleep, depress motor neuron excitability, influence autonomic and endocrine function, and suppress appetite in animal and human studies. An exercise-induced imbalance in the ratio of free tryptophan to BCAAs has been implicated as a possible caus eof acute physiological and psychological fatigue (central fatigue).It has also been hypothesized that chronic elevations in 5-HT concentration, which may occur in athletes maintaining high-volume training, explains some of the reported signs and symptoms of the overtraining syndrome: postural hypotension, anemia, amenorrhea, immunosuppression, appetite suppression, weight loss, depression, anddecreased performance (Newsholme et al.,1991; Gastmann and Lehmann, 1998;Kreider, 1998).

[Joseph1990]

BCAAs are taken up by the muscles rather than the liver in order to contribute to oxidative metabolism.

Only reading the bold. ^^^Once again why would this matter? What is the benefit to ^^^this.

In your own words please.

[snagency]

i am establishing a distinction between BCAA the the body has to break down and glean from food, vs. free-form BCAA.

they are not one and the same, as far as the metabolism in the body.

the parallel here would be, you riding a Greyhound bus to get to, say New York. not only does the bus travel incredibly slower, but there are many untold stops it has to make along the way..and, as a different form of transport, the bus has to stop and get fuel a couple different times.

versus, you hopping on a jet and flying direct to NY.

ya get me now, Junior?

to say there is no difference betwen BCAA/aminos in a piece of chicken vs. ingesting straight BCAA, is inaccurate.

sry, i thought the point was rather obvious..perhaps re-read the thread?

this is not apples to apples.

BCAA powder and protein powder both end up in the bloodstream as single amino acids. At this point it no longer makes a difference whether they began as BCAA powder, whey powder, or a piece of chicken. They are all one and the same by the time they're in your blood. Where they came from therefore has no effect on the fact that amino acids floating in the blood provide 4 calories per gram.

[Joseph1990]

i am establishing a distinction between BCAA the the body has to break down and glean from food, vs. free-form BCAA.

they are not one and the same, as far as the metabolism in the body.

the parallel here would be, you riding a Greyhound bus to get to, say New York. not only does the bus travel incredibly slower, but there are many untold stops it has to make along the way..and, as a different form of transport, the bus has to stop and get fuel a couple different times.

versus, you hopping on a jet and flying direct to NY.

ya get me now, Junior?

to say there is no difference betwen BCAA/aminos in a piece of chicken vs. ingesting straight BCAA, is inaccurate.

sry, i thought the point was rather obvious..perhaps re-read the thread?

this is not apples to apples.

According to your analogy I end up in New York Regardless. There was no difference other then the time it took me to get there. In regards to body composition, protein = amino acids.

At this point, the muscles don't want to be hanging around waiting for the liver to metabolize other amino acids, of which not all will reach them.

^^^Once again is there not amino acids in the bloodstream from previous meals ready and willing to be used. Please explain the benefits of the addition of BCAA's to a diet with 1-1.5g of protein per pound of LBM from whole foods.

If there is none then....

You're arguing semantics and you don't have a point.

In this case I suggest you disregard bb.com and acquire a social life.

[snagency]

lqtm..

According to your analogy I end up in New York Regardless. There was no difference other then the time it took me to get there. In regards to body composition, protein = amino acids.

well, you missed half the point (at least) once again.. [SIGH]

there are so many different aspects to BCAA/metabolism and the advantages of quicker and more complete uptake by the body - especially during certain timeframes such as peri-training, or in fasted state - it's ridiculous..simple minds attempt to simplify everything, in order to cover up the reality that they do not understand the entirety nor complexity of the issue at hand.

Once again is there not amino acids in the bloodstream from previous meals ready and willing to be used. Please explain the benefits of the addition of BCAA's to a diet with 1-1.5g of protein per pound of LBM from whole foods.

ummm..see above?

If there is none then....

In this case I suggest you disregard bb.com and acquire a social life.

[shakes head]

the best thing about you is, the forthcoming honesty of your "details" under your screen-name on your avi there.

< 200lbs I know nothing

at 20yrs of age, and at 165lbs, one would think you'd be more inclined to read and learn, rather than talk in stubborn circles and (attempt) to degrade others with your massive and extensive experience and intellect..
(not to mention your wizardry with jpeg images circulating since 2006..)

alas..go figure.

[Joseph1990]

lqtm..

well, you missed half the point (at least) once again.. [SIGH]

Because you keep beating around the bush because you know your point if any is not worth debating about witch takes us back to what JohnBrowne said on the first page.

there are so many different aspects to BCAA/metabolism and the advantages of quicker and more complete uptake by the body - especially during certain timeframes such as peri-training, or in fasted state - it's ridiculous..simple minds attempt to simplify everything, in order to cover up the reality that they do not understand the entirety nor complexity of the issue at hand.

ummm..see above?

All I see is you attempting to sound like you have something to say when you don't.

[shakes head]

the best thing about you is, the forthcoming honesty of your "details" under your screen-name on your avi there.

< 200lbs I know nothing

at 20yrs of age, and at 165lbs, one would think you'd be more inclined to read and learn, rather than talk in stubborn circles and (attempt) to degrade others with your massive and extensive experience and intellect..

(not to mention your wizardry with jpeg images circulating since 2006..)

alas..go figure.

^^^My favorite part of arguing with ignorant cavemen. The unnecessary irrelevant snobby comment at the end they seal every empty rebuttal with.

Please explain how after looking at my stats you come to the conclusion I need to read more?

[MikeK46]

Thank you, snagency, for citing relevant studies suggesting that BCAA's have less caloric value than protein. You clearly refuted the nonsense! Well done, sir!!

Wait, wait, wait. Waaaaaaaait a second. You lost your train of thought in the thread and provided nothing but information about potential benefits of high leucine, isoleucine, and valine dosage on muscle protein synthesis.

Relevancy? None. Lulz? Many.

No, BCAA's have 4 calories per gram just like whey, except they're not a full spectrum protein.

the difference being, protein needs to be broken down thru digestion to assimilate and glean those BCAAs and aminos...applying the the idea of what we consider "energy", and 1g BCAA=4kcals of this "unit of energy", to BCAA does not make sense to me.

[mannydawg]

me, i like having intelligent conversations. not engaging in childish back and forth. as i am sure you will have something to say in return, go ahead. i'll not bother with further response to you, as it is a ginormous waste of my time.

[snagency]

well, i couldn't locate the article i've been trying to find off & on all morning. and i tire of the attempt, since for the majority here apparently it would not be understood anyway.

the bottom line here is, while there is research that reinforces some of my ideas, of course there is research that refutes it..

even the "experts" do not agree with each other on the topic at hand..

i espouse my own theories, based on my extensive work and experience with BCAA/EAA dating back to the 1990's..

my theories, just like anybody elses, are exactly that: theories, that i embrace, because of my own understanding, my own opinions, and my own self-experience..

sadly, it is a waste of time in most cases to share one's own opinion on this site, because of the multitude of 20-something experts who are driven to quote somebody elses stance, because it's cool to ride the nutsack-train of someone else, because it's cool to have alliances and allegiances, and because gang-banging mentality is really "funner" than true actual intelligent enlightenment..

not to mention - it is SO cool to post neat lil jpeg images in redundance, because they are flashy and fun to look at..

lastly - this is bb.com, not real life. if this behavior makes you feel like a man here because you feel so feeble in real life that you need such an outlet, well i guess i'm happy for you that you have found such outlet..

everyone has their own agenda..who am i to criticize?

knock yourself out.

[Joseph1990]

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/72865_o.gif

inb4 snagency "Why thank you for proving my point durp durp durp."

[mannydawg]

inb4 snagency "Why thank you for proving my point durp durp durp."

He's the only one being childish because he can't and or hasn't provided any factual proof for any of his statements and yet continue to argue.