BREAKING: Kris Dim had a heart attack

**TheGreekHulk84** · 06-18-2007, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by latinmuscle

Dude steroids and diuretics need to be addressed separately. I am talking use not abuse. Abuse of anything would kill you, but there are healthy individuals who use steroids responsably.

Well i dont agree, but anyway everyone has their views on the matter but think about it, dont most bodybuilders abuse steroids? or are they all going to the doctor for their shots? If they all went to the doctor for their shots then you wouldnt have any mass monsters you see today becuase the medical proffesionals dont recomend the outragous dosages that people in fear of prosecutions themselves if something does happen. The fact is, that abuse is too common and anyone who states that it is healthy is a bloody fool! Diuretics and steroids go hand in hand and if the one dont get you then the other one will, im not gonna write in this thread again as im wasting my time!

**The_Big_E** · 06-18-2007, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by TheGreekHulk84

Well i dont agree, but anyway everyone has their views on the matter but think about it, dont most bodybuilders abuse steroids? or are they all going to the doctor for their shots? If they all went to the doctor for their shots then you wouldnt have any mass monsters you see today becuase the medical proffesionals dont recomend the outragous dosages that people in fear of prosecutions themselves if something does happen. The fact is, that abuse is too common and anyone who states that it is healthy is a bloody fool! Diuretics and steroids go hand in hand and if the one dont get you then the other one will, im not gonna write in this thread again as im wasting my time!

I don't think you are wasting your time bro. These are good conversations to have because many young and aspiring (or just aspiring) Bodybuilders come here looking for info. Well thought out debates like this are JUST what they need.

Now, there are cases where doctors do offer just the services you mentioned. They risk their medical license and credibility for it but the athletes they service pay a MINT so it is worth it to these doctors. The recent case in Albany, NY comes to mind.

You ask how many bodybuilders don't ABUSE? I would venture to guess your top tier pro's don't ABUSE but definitely USE. They have the dedication and brains to realize if they want LOOOOOONG successful carreers they can USE and USE smartly with proper guidance, monitoring and all that. If they want to be a flash in the pan and then get a new kidney after 5 years and retire to poverty then they ABUSE and hope for the best whiel it lasts.

**Briggsy** · 06-18-2007, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by The_Big_E

Ya know, just for the simple fact this post got way off track I tried to avoid it but... DAMN this has gotten crazy!!!

Every argument that is ANTI steroids needs to have the word abuse added after the word steroid. Every thing you mention and being associated to STEROIDS is not because of use but because of ABUSE. I think you will eb hard pressed to find ANY case of a person that uses steroids "properly" (notice the quotation marks) having the issues mentioned.

There are pros who have used for YEARS but they cycle propper hormone therapies and follow actual cycle times. They don't double up on injections, use dirty needles, double the cycle length... they use as "prescribed"(notice the quotes again). They understand that...

The ones that have issues are the ones who try to make the bigger and better results biggerer and betterer and faster! And NOBODy should deny this as a fact.

It's like guns, propper gun USE can save your family. Gun ABUSE can kill your family!

Now, Kris... speedy recover bro! If you can get back in the game great, if not, well... don't sweat it just be happy ya made it through =) We are all rootin' for ya though!

are you saying that all the pro bodybuilders out there suffering with kidne and heart problems, kris dim included where abusing steriods?

does that mean every pro abuses steriods? and if so what would be the proper use of steriods for bodybuilding?

**gjohnson5** · 06-18-2007, 09:06 AM

Moderate levels of steroid use would have nothing to do with the steroid use of top pro bodybuilders. I also disagree that steroids and diuretics should be addresses separately. we need to understand the drug cocktails that people are subjecting their bodies to and the effects these cocktails are having on people. These drugs are not taken in a vacuum. They are taken together so the effects should be studied stacked

Originally Posted by latinmuscle

Dude steroids and diuretics need to be addressed separately. I am talking use not abuse. Abuse of anything would kill you, but there are healthy individuals who use steroids responsably.

**The_Big_E** · 06-18-2007, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Briggsy

are you saying that all the pro bodybuilders out there suffering with kidne and heart problems, kris dim included where abusing steriods?

does that mean every pro abuses steriods? and if so what would be the proper use of steriods for bodybuilding?

Reread the post and read my second post as well... thought I laid my thoughts out fairly well. But in short... no... I can't say that because I am not their doctors let alone A doctor. What I can tell you is it is disinformative to label instances of abuse as side effects of use!

I went to school with a girl who had the SAME EXACT thing happen to her... as a freshman in highschool. She never even smoked, it was a pre-existing condition that was so small it went unnoticed until one day it just happened. The same thing could have happend to Kris for all we know. John Ritter ring a bell with anyone?

My purpose is not to point fingers... it's not the time or place really and the subject SHOULD be in a different thread altogether but it wasn't. My purpose is ti simply agree that STEROID ABUSE is bad, STEROID USE... maybe not so much.

I define abuse as blindly injecting random quatnities of gear in random areas at random times hoping for random results. Use would be using doctor recommended dosages at prescribed times in prescribed amounts in order to achieve specific results with regular checkups to monitor your body for any side effects and takign the proper actions to correct any issues as they are detected.

**Noviomagus** · 06-18-2007, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by TheGreekHulk84

Well i dont agree, but anyway everyone has their views on the matter but think about it, dont most bodybuilders abuse steroids? or are they all going to the doctor for their shots? If they all went to the doctor for their shots then you wouldnt have any mass monsters you see today becuase the medical proffesionals dont recomend the outragous dosages that people in fear of prosecutions themselves if something does happen. The fact is, that abuse is too common and anyone who states that it is healthy is a bloody fool! Diuretics and steroids go hand in hand and if the one dont get you then the other one will, im not gonna write in this thread again as im wasting my time!

you did what you could.
it's hard to talk to people who are 'on' this stuff themslves.
they don't wanna know the negative side of it.
to each their own.

**gjohnson5** · 06-18-2007, 09:20 AM

we don't know about the specific health problems, but 10-15g of steroids a week won't be healthy to anyone.
And I'll say Yes , the top pros all do abuse steroids. Anyone who want to win will do the extreme for a Sandow trophy.

I actually condone steroid use. I am just being real about the dosages , diuretics and masking drugs these guys are doing to pass the urinalysis and win the competition.

Originally Posted by Briggsy

are you saying that all the pro bodybuilders out there suffering with kidne and heart problems, kris dim included where abusing steriods?

does that mean every pro abuses steriods? and if so what would be the proper use of steriods for bodybuilding?

**gjohnson5** · 06-18-2007, 09:31 AM

Andreas Munzer's steroid cycle before Lasix killed him

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/st...ad-452478.html

Read this cycle in an Anabolic Insider Magazine... This is his cycle daily (everyday!!) before competition. Note: doctor's said he dies of dehydration.......you dont say!!!???

Weeks 10-6:
2 injects of 250mg Test (ED)
1 inject Parabolan (ED)
30 tabs Halotestin - fluoxymesterone - (ED)
30 tabs Metandienon (ED)
20iu of gh - growth hormone (****tropin) - (ED)
20 iu insulin (ED)

Weeks 5-3:
3 injects Masteron (ED)
2 injects Parabolan (ED)
30 tabs Halotestin - fluoxymesterone - (ED)
50 tabs Stromba (ED)
24iu gh - growth hormone (****tropin) - (ED)
Unknown insulin

Note: He was also using EPO.
What do you fellas think?? What the hell is Ronnie takin'?? I mean, and people are worried about takin' a few tabs of Superdrol daily!! This must be common amongst pros to take this much....this may be why several pros have died at an early age but then again, this is downright steroid abuse

**latinmuscle** · 06-18-2007, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

Moderate levels of steroid use would have nothing to do with the steroid use of top pro bodybuilders. I also disagree that steroids and diuretics should be addresses separately. we need to understand the drug cocktails that people are subjecting their bodies to and the effects these cocktails are having on people. These drugs are not taken in a vacuum. They are taken together so the effects should be studied stacked

Disagree; a lot pros are genetic freaks, dedicated individuals. Just because they are huge does not mean they use huge amounts of Juice. In fact, I belive amateurs use more and abuse more often than pros. You would be surprised to see the cycles they use. And they are not taken together people do a cycle of juice for 12 to 24 weeks while diuretics like lasix is taken1-3 days before th show, at least thats my understanding. When I say that they need to be addressed separately is only because 1) they have very diferent side effects 2) All pros juice but not all pro's use diuretics anymore.

ever wondered why the "megaripped " look of the 80's and 90's is no more, despite great advances in nutritional science and training strategies?

they have learned from the munzer, benaziza, dillet incidents.

BTW, when I say "a lot of pros", or "most pros" I have to admit is based in educated assumptions. I personally only know what 4 pros do or have done. I only hear what others do thru second hand information

**gjohnson5** · 06-18-2007, 09:52 AM

LOL at your perspective!!! I do not agree that the top pros as all genetic freaks especially knowing the dosages they take. I am not surprised by the cycles they use because I just posted one. Anyway you need to understand drug half life. When one injects a drug into thier system , that drug doens't go away the next day , LOL

Anyway, The reason why the mega ripped look is gone is because Pro Bodybuilding is a about size and mass. The last 25 or so years of Olympias has been won by the biggest guy

Lee Haney - 8 Olympias
Dorian yates 6 Olympias
Ronnie Coleman 8 Olympias
Jay Cutler Current winner

It's about size and drugs are needed to get the size needed to win. The size were talking about is not achievable genetically

Originally Posted by latinmuscle

Disagree; a lot pros are genetic freaks, dedicated individuals. Just because they are huge does not mean they use huge amounts of Juice. In fact, I belive amateurs use more and abuse more often than pros. You would be surprised to see the cycles they use. And they are not taken together people do a cycle of juice for 12 to 24 weeks while diuretics like lasix is taken1-3 days before th show, at least thats my understanding. When I say that they need to be addressed separately is only because 1) they have very diferent side effects 2) All pros juice but not all pro's use diuretics anymore.

ever wondered why the "megaripped " look of the 80's and 90's is no more, despite great advances in nutritional science and training strategies?

they have learned from the munzer, benaziza, dillet incidents.

BTW, when I say "a lot of pros", or "most pros" I have to admit is based in educated assumptions. I personally only know what 4 pros do or have done. I only hear what others do thru second hand information

**MonsterG8r** · 06-18-2007, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Uriel_da_man

*Wais for inevitable steroid comment*

Well, I doubt it was the organic wheatgrass juice and flaxseeds that did it.

**Noviomagus** · 06-18-2007, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by latinmuscle

Disagree; a lot pros are genetic freaks, dedicated individuals. Just because they are huge does not mean they use huge amounts of Juice. In fact, I belive amateurs use more and abuse more often than pros. You would be surprised to see the cycles they use.

did you notice how ronnie coleman got bigger and bigger each year?
did you see how his body 'transformed'?
you think it was from training?
look at his pregnant belly.
I don't think they use just a 'little' steroids.

**Noviomagus** · 06-18-2007, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by MonsterG8r

Well, I doubt it was the organic wheatgrass juice and flaxseeds that did it.

hehe that was a good one .

funny :-)

**latinmuscle** · 06-18-2007, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

LOL at your perspective!!! I do not agree that the top pros as all genetic freaks especially knowing the dosages they take. I am not surprised by the cycles they use because I just posted one. Anyway you need to understand drug half life. When one injects a drug into thier system , that drug doens't go away the next day , LOL

Anyway, The reason why the mega ripped look is gone is because Pro Bodybuilding is a about size and mass. The last 25 or so years of Olympias has been won by the biggest guy

Lee Haney - 8 Olympias
Dorian yates 6 Olympias
Ronnie Coleman 8 Olympias
Jay Cutler Current winner

It's about size and drugs are needed to get the size needed to win. The size were talking about is not achievable genetically

That cycle you posted maybe legit who really knows? do you have first hand info?
My first hand info tells me that they dont use nearly as much as people think.

All of the Olympians have beaten bigger guys Haney beat Yates and matarrazo, yates beat Matarazzo,ferigno, Dillet and nasser, (smaller)Ronnie beat Ruhl and gunter, Jay beat ronnie.

Even if Bob, marcos chacon or any other of the pro bros here would spell out what they take you guys still would't belive it.

BTW we are waaaaaay off track here, I am enjoying the discussion but I think the most appropriate use of this thread is to say "Kris get well your friends and family whant you arround for a long time"

**Flex500** · 06-18-2007, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by gjohnson5

Andreas Munzer's steroid cycle before Lasix killed him

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/st...ad-452478.html

Read this cycle in an Anabolic Insider Magazine... This is his cycle daily (everyday!!) before competition. Note: doctor's said he dies of dehydration.......you dont say!!!???

Weeks 10-6:
2 injects of 250mg Test (ED)
1 inject Parabolan (ED)
30 tabs Halotestin - fluoxymesterone - (ED)
30 tabs Metandienon (ED)
20iu of gh - growth hormone (****tropin) - (ED)
20 iu insulin (ED)

Weeks 5-3:
3 injects Masteron (ED)
2 injects Parabolan (ED)
30 tabs Halotestin - fluoxymesterone - (ED)
50 tabs Stromba (ED)
24iu gh - growth hormone (****tropin) - (ED)
Unknown insulin

Note: He was also using EPO.
What do you fellas think?? What the hell is Ronnie takin'?? I mean, and people are worried about takin' a few tabs of Superdrol daily!! This must be common amongst pros to take this much....this may be why several pros have died at an early age but then again, this is downright steroid abuse

I seriously hope your not suggesting you know what people are using and how much based on munzers last stack???

It is impossible to tell how much stuff people are taking. I know FIRST HAND that quite a few pro's are not taking anything even in that realm. I know FIRST HAND that one of my friends who just did junior nationals is taking almost double what his trainer (who is a former pro and who won a few pro contests) told him to take and what he ever took himself.

I think you would be shocked at all the 200 pound guys using 1+ grams of test a week. I know kids in high school who are 170 and look like dogsh*t who are using 800 grams of test and 1000 grams of deca a week.

On the other hand I never touched anything even questionable when I was 200 pounds competing for the first time, shredded. There are plenty of naturals guys that are really natural that look better than guys around the world juicing.

There is no way at all to tell who uses the most or what by looks. Head over to westside barbell, I'll introduce you to some powerlifters who are taking enough steroids to make most pro bbers blush.

Either way, I've said this, bob's said this, lee has said this, we all have, you'll find your biggest abusers in the national npc shows with the guys finishing 5-15 year after year. They push it so hard to go pro many of them take everything they can.

**Audiowaves252** · 06-18-2007, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Noviomagus

don't talk s h i t about "weak minded kids hanging themselves".as you call these poor kids.cause that's what they are.victims of idiocy caused by types like you and what you are advertising.
they dont need your bulltalks about how innocent anabolics are.they need sane people around the helping them in positive ways.

you wanna know all those case where agression and bodybuilders are involved?and they do kill themselves more often yeah.and others .damn right.
and bodybuilders beating up their wives like chris cormier did?
there are many cases of them too.

I told you already about Andreas Munzer.but you don't respond to that do you?
you just wanna listen to your own babbling.
how the hell do you think Andreas died?what were the causes?
YOU tell me that !
your ill reps you can keep.you know where.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print...481&type=story

All your continuous incoherent rambling still did not address the issue at hand. After reading the first 3 articles you posted I stopped reading because they addressed nothing but potential side effects. No STUDIES you posted conclusively linked steroid use to death. Learn to comprehend studies so you don't look like such a ignorant jackass.

**I'm not advocating steroid use, you are just like the rest of the population that would rather opt for histeria then logic in a situation like this. Educate yourself. And now you're talking about roid rage in this last paragraph of complete non sense. Roid rage goes back to the individuals fault for 'thinking he has to be mad at the world because of the roids!!! OHHH the roids made me do it!!!' give me a ****ing break.
If someone has a violent mindset they will do whatever violent act they intend regardless of steroids or not. Thats just another example of a weak minded individual blaming **** on steroids. Thats why they get a bad name in the first place - irresponsible weak minded individuals.

**TheGreekHulk84** · 06-18-2007, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Audiowaves252

All your continuous incoherent rambling still did not address the issue at hand. After reading the first 3 articles you posted I stopped reading because they addressed nothing but potential side effects. No STUDIES you posted conclusively linked steroid use to death. Learn to comprehend studies so you don't look like such a ignorant jackass.

**I'm not advocating steroid use, you are just like the rest of the population that would rather opt for histeria then logic in a situation like this. Educate yourself. And now you're talking about roid rage in this last paragraph of complete non sense. Roid rage goes back to the individuals fault for 'thinking he has to be mad at the world because of the roids!!! OHHH the roids made me do it!!!' give me a ****ing break.
If someone has a violent mindset they will do whatever violent act they intend regardless of steroids or not. Thats just another example of a weak minded individual blaming **** on steroids. Thats why they get a bad name in the first place - irresponsible weak minded individuals.

Anyway, the bottom line is that Chris is getting better and young bodybuilders need to be carefull, learn from other bodybuilders mistakes and there is two sides to a story.

**latinmuscle** · 06-18-2007, 01:09 PM

That is your best post yet. you just earned some reps.

Hope you watched the videos I linked, is good info regardles of you stand on steroids. Pace

**Noviomagus** · 06-18-2007, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Audiowaves252

All your continuous incoherent rambling still did not address the issue at hand. After reading the first 3 articles you posted I stopped reading because they addressed nothing but potential side effects. No STUDIES you posted conclusively linked steroid use to death. Learn to comprehend studies so you don't look like such a ignorant jackass.

**I'm not advocating steroid use, you are just like the rest of the population that would rather opt for histeria then logic in a situation like this. Educate yourself. And now you're talking about roid rage in this last paragraph of complete non sense. Roid rage goes back to the individuals fault for 'thinking he has to be mad at the world because of the roids!!! OHHH the roids made me do it!!!' give me a ****ing break.
If someone has a violent mindset they will do whatever violent act they intend regardless of steroids or not. Thats just another example of a weak minded individual blaming **** on steroids. Thats why they get a bad name in the first place - irresponsible weak minded individuals.

after reading 3 articles you stopped?
you should read the one about powerlifters too.
the last one with the !!! if I'm right.
jeez..

you got problems with roid rage?
seems like it.

**Briggsy** · 06-18-2007, 03:53 PM

there seems to be a much higher level of aggression coming from the people that admit they use steriods. I do not remember seeing arny have a B.F when asked about it?

maybe it is becuae he knew and accepted the risks and did not try to kid himself.

**Noviomagus** · 06-18-2007, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Briggsy

there seems to be a much higher level of aggression coming from the people that admit they use steriods. I do not remember seeing arny have a B.F when asked about it?

maybe it is becuae he knew and accepted the risks and did not try to kid himself.

something like this..

http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart....htm?E+mystore