...Taking Creatine and Glutamine together??

[goth666]

Originally posted by str8flexed
THEY ARE DONE ON CANCER PATIENTS!!!!!!!

look at my post of the studies from the AST website. do u see one single thing in their about cancer patients? no u do not. o, but i guess they just did this to pimp their GL3?

[DtotheWizzy]

Immune System Benefits


1. Immune response to heavy exertion.
Nieman DC
Department of Health and Exercise Science, Appalachian State University, Boone, North Carolina 28608, USA.


Epidemiological data suggest that endurance athletes are at increased risk for upper respiratory tract infection during periods of heavy training and the 1- to 2-wk period following race events. There is growing evidence that, for several hours subsequent to heavy exertion, several components of both the innate (e.g., natural killer cell activity and neutrophil oxidative burst activity) and adaptive (e.g., T and B cell function) immune system exhibit suppressed function. At the same time, plasma pro- and anti-inflammatory cytokines are elevated, in particular interleukin-6- and interleukin-1-receptor antagonist. Various mechanisms explaining the altered immunity have been explored, including hormone-induced trafficking of immune cells and the direct influence of stress hormones, prostaglandin-E2, cytokines, and other factors. The immune response to heavy exertion is transient, and further research on the mechanisms underlying the immune response to prolonged and intensive endurance exercise is necessary before meaningful clinical applications can be drawn. Some attempts have been made through chemical or nutritional means (e.g., indomethacin, glutamine, vitamin C, and carbohydrate supplementation) to attenuate immune changes following intensive exercise.



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2. Does glutamine have a role in reducing infections in athletes?
Castell LM, Poortmans JR, Newsholme EA
University Department of Biochemistry, Oxford, UK.


There is an increased risk of infections in athletes undertaking prolonged, strenuous exercise. There is also some evidence that cells of the immune system are less able to mount a defence against infections after such exercise. The level of plasma glutamine, an important fuel for cells of the immune system, is decreased in athletes after endurance exercise; this may be partly responsible for the apparent immunosuppression which occurs in these individuals. We monitored levels of infection in more than 200 runners and towers. The levels of infection were lowest in middle-distance runners, and highest in runners after a full or ultramarathon and in elite rowers after intensive training. In the present study, athletes participating in different types of exercise consumed two drinks, containing either glutamine (Group G) or placebo (Group P) immediately after and 2 h after exercise. They subsequently completed questionnaires (n = 151) about the incidence of infections during the 7 days following the exercise. The percentage of athletes reporting no infections was considerably higher in Group G (81%, n = 72) than in Group P (49%, n = 79, p < 0.001). i.e. Less athletes, supplementing with glutamine, became infected after extreme exertion than in the placebo group.



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3. The effects of oral glutamine supplementation on athletes after prolonged, exhaustive exercise.
Castell LM, Newsholme EA; Nutrition 1997 Jul-Aug;13(7-8):738-42 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
University Department of Biochemistry, Oxford, United Kingdom.

Athletes undergoing intense, prolonged training or participating in endurance races suffer an increased risk of infection due to apparent immunosuppression. Glutamine is an important fuel for some cells of the immune system and may have specific immunostimulatory effects. The plasma glutamine concentration is lower after prolonged, exhaustive exercise: this may contribute to impairment of the immune system at a time when the athlete may be exposed to opportunistic infections. The effects of feeding glutamine was investigated both at rest in sedentary controls and after exhaustive exercise in middle-distance, marathon and ultra-marathon runners, and elite rowers, in training and competition. Questionnaires established the incidence of infection for 7 d after exercise: infection levels were highest in marathon and ultra-marathon runners, and in elite male rowers after intensive training. Plasma glutamine levels were decreased by approximately 20% 1 h after marathon running. A marked increase in numbers of white blood cells occurred immediately after exhaustive exercise, followed by a decrease in the numbers of lymphocytes. The provision of oral glutamine after exercise appeared to have a beneficial effect on the level of subsequent infections. In addition, the ratio of T-helper/T-suppressor cells appeared to be increased in samples from those who received glutamine, compared with placebo.






Performance benefits




1. Increased plasma bicarbonate and growth hormone after an oral glutamine load.
Welbourne TC; Am J Clin Nutr 1995 May;61(5):1058-61
Department of Physiology, Louisiana State University College of Medicine, Shreveport 71130, USA.

An oral glutamine load was administered to nine healthy subjects to determine the effect on plasma glutamine, bicarbonate, and circulating growth hormone concentrations. Two grams glutamine were dissolved in a cola drink and ingested over a 20-min period 45 min after a light breakfast. Forearm venous blood samples were obtained at zero time and at 30-min intervals for 90 min and compared with time controls obtained 1 wk earlier. Eight of nine subjects responded to the oral glutamine load with an increase in plasma glutamine at 30 and 60 min before returning to the control value at 90 min. Ninety minutes after the glutamine administration load both plasma bicarbonate concentration and circulating plasma growth hormone concentration were elevated (by a mean of 430%). These findings demonstrate that a surprisingly small oral glutamine load is capable of elevating alkaline reserves as well as plasma growth hormone.


Also see -
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...spec=relevance


http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...spec=relevance


http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...spec=relevance


In closing - Layne, you are my son.

[NaturalFreak]

Originally posted by str8flexed
THEY ARE DONE ON CANCER PATIENTS!!!!!!!

You know Layne, your wasting energy on this... Just tell them what it is that they are wanting to hear.

This is awesome stuff, you need to go out and spend THOUSANDS of dollars on this, this is the next banned substance for it steroid like effects... GET YOUR TODAY!

[DtotheWizzy]

Originally posted by NaturalFreak
[B]You know Layne, your wasting energy on this... Just tell them what it is that they are wanting to hear.

This is awsome stuff, you need to go out and spend THOUSANDS of dollars on this, this is the next banned substance for it steroid like effects... GET YOUR TODAY!

Why don't you remove your head from layne's ass and join the rest of the world?

We are not talking about phs, snake oil supplements, or muscle tech...we are talking about the most abundant non essential AA in our bodies. Try reading my links...there are nearly 6000 case studies in the journal of applied physiology about glutamine...

Furthermore, you talking about wasting money on an AA is analogous to someone saying the same about whey protein.

Carry on, have a nice day...and remember, Layne likes it when you use two hands while sucking him off.

[NaturalFreak]

Originally posted by DtotheWizzy
Carry on, have a nice day...and remember, Layne likes it when you use two hands while sucking him off.

Are you talking from experience?

[NaturalFreak]

Something you have to keep in mind, when they do a medical study they are not using the glutamine off a store shelf. There is a pharmaceutical grade of glutamine that hospitals, doctors, and medical researchers use.

Unless you are one of the subjects used in these studies, there maybe underlying issues that you don't know about these subjects.

Have a nice day...

[goth666]

glutamine is actually considered conditionally essential, meaning under certain circumstances, it is, duh, essential. and i agree with DtotheWizzy, get off layne's nuts.

[NaturalFreak]

Originally posted by goth666
glutamine is actually considered conditionally essential, meaning under certain circumstances, it is, duh, essential. and i agree with DtotheWizzy, get off layne's nuts.

Let me ask you, do you know the difference between store brought and pharmaceutical grade???

Yes, glutamine is considered conditionally essential, but what you have failed in understanding, Layne is telling you that with proper nutrition you get more that enough glutamine out of whole foods (the best source of getting any nutrient) any supplementation after that is pretty much a waste of money... Kind of like a waste of my time having to explain what Layne has tried telling everyone.

But to each their own, if you what to piss money down the toilet, have at... Good Times.

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by goth666
glutamine is actually considered conditionally essential, meaning under certain circumstances, it is, duh, essential. and i agree with DtotheWizzy, get off layne's nuts.

so since he agrees with me he's on my nuts? Using that logic since you all are disagreeing with me you must be flaming me and I should ban you?

yes it's conditionally essentially... IN PEOPLE WITH WASTING DISEASES where your physiology is drastically altered... someone consuming enough calories on a daily basis and protein is NOT in a wasting state... maybe, just maybe if you cut calories down to below 1000-1500 and did alot of activity you might be able to get to that point then yes glutamine might become essential... but someone who is just training like a normal bodybuilder and eating like one... no way in hell

[Grrrr]

Layne, I dunno why you even waste your time arguing with these idiots. I gave up a long time ago.

[goth666]

Originally posted by str8flexed
so since he agrees with me he's on my nuts? Using that logic since you all are disagreeing with me you must be flaming me and I should ban you?

yes it's conditionally essentially... IN PEOPLE WITH WASTING DISEASES where your physiology is drastically altered... someone consuming enough calories on a daily basis and protein is NOT in a wasting state... maybe, just maybe if you cut calories down to below 1000-1500 and did alot of activity you might be able to get to that point then yes glutamine might become essential... but someone who is just training like a normal bodybuilder and eating like one... no way in hell

aaahhh, ok, i see. so u saying that talking to me is like arguing with a brick wall, and i use an expression like "get off his nuts" and im flaming? no. sry. dont think so.

[DtotheWizzy]

Appearently Layne's scientific information is on par with the bible to a christian, and the data I have read is useless...

Typical...

For the record Layne, you aren't the only one on the site with a biochem nutrition degree, but you are the only one that hides behind it as an 'end all' to your worthless drivel.

[goth666]

Originally posted by DtotheWizzy
For the record Layne, you aren't the only one on the site with a biochem nutrition degree, but you are the only one that hides behind it as an 'end all' to your worthless drivel.

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by Grrrr
Layne, I dunno why you even waste your time arguing with these idiots. I gave up a long time ago.

it's entertainment

[velikimajmun]

Originally posted by DtotheWizzy
Appearently Layne's scientific information is on par with the bible to a christian, and the data I have read is useless...

Typical...

For the record Layne, you aren't the only one on the site with a biochem nutrition degree, but you are the only one that hides behind it as an 'end all' to your worthless drivel.

I'm not looking for a flame war or to jump on layne's side because he is much farther to the right (or left whatever) than I am on this issue. I have scoured pubmed and read many review articles.

It seems to me that there is good immune support data behind glutamine supplementation (this really can't be disputed) but it also seems to me that the link between muscle preservation and/or growth in relation to glutamine supplementaion is at best tenuous at best yet it is billed as a muscle building supplement on par with creatine if not better than creatine. Numerous studies have show a muscle saving effect in people with wasting disease and it has been shown to increase Gh. At the same time it has been shown to adversly affect IGF-1. Also in all the practical strength based studies (published in peer-reviewed journals not on BB websites) I've seen there has been little or no benefit shown to glutamine supplementation ( for the direct purpose of muscle building/preservation in the general populace).

What are your thoughts?

[CuttingEdge]

Over 11,000 posts...man, what a life!!!

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by CuttingEdge
Over 11,000 posts...man, what a life!!!

thanks... spent trying to help others

[CuttingEdge]

With that new show you have on Comedy Central, your time will be somewhat limited here....

Oh...nevermind, that's "The Graham Norton Effect"...my bad..

[goth666]

lol

[Its_PainFuLL]

sad..... *sigh*

[The.Giant]

Originally posted by str8flexed
where do people come up with this pseudo-scientific crap? Of course, taking glutamine won't do much of anything except lighten your wallet

X 9 Billion.

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by CuttingEdge
Prove your worth to your University...ask for the grant money to do a study on the supplement. Surely they'll take a man with your qualifications and throw about $50,000 his way for a study, no questions asked!! Afterall, you're the bodybuilding.com guru, 11,000 posts and counting!!

university of illinois has done studies on glutamine... hell the professor i'm working for has done a few of them I believe. Actually he is the one who convinced me that glutamine was not useful for healthy people! I debated with him and he convinced me otherwise.

I don't know why you are making this so personal and being so rude about it. It's as if I insulted your faith.

[goth666]

so some studies prove its effective, some dont. which should we believe? hmmmmmm, i think ill go with mine.

[goth666]

http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=128

[alan aragon]

to answer the original question here: there's nothing wrong with taking creatine & glutamine together.

now on the the debate..

first off, who really cares about degrees. i have a bachelor's & master's degree in nutrition & a full-time private nutrition practice that focuses on working with athletes. i am a professional sports nutritionist, and have been for the past 10 years. i work with every type of competitive athlete you can think of -- full time. that's how i pay my mortgage, & feed my family. but who really cares. i have lectured at several universities, and i regulary have physicians, dietitians, & even college professors in my audiences. it's ignorant to think that formal degrees determine your bottom line ability to critically investigate a hypothesis. i fully concede that there are many others who have ZERO degrees/formal training that are many times more brilliant than i am.

the next bit of rambling is going off of the top of my head, so the references won't be in long form, but trust me, i can dig them up. for now, i just want to expose the state of affairs quickly.

the body of research linking glutamine to immunity in endurance athletes, gut health, and cellular hydration is very strong. as mentioned by layne, extensive use by the gut yields only small amounts into systemic circulation relative to what's ingested orally. the relevance of immunity & gut health to bodybuilding goals is open to interpretation. let's look at the more directly relevant stuff..

recent studies have shown that it's useless for adding extra mass and/or strength in well-fed athletes, ie, under eucaloric or hypercaloric conditions. BUT.. there are only TWO glutamine studies as of this posting that look at its ability to guard against catabolism in athletes (wrestlers in particular) under hypocaloric/weight reduction protocols. one study (finn, 2003) showed no effect of glutamine on anticatabolism. the other did show glut's ability to guard against catabolism & negative n-balance (rosene, 1999). studies on glutamine's ability to enhance glycogen storage show mixed results as well. this means that glutamine has a 0% success rate in research at actually adding mass & strength under conditions of adequate calories or better, and a 50% success rate at guarding against muscle catabolism under hypocaloric conditions. combine this with the aforementioned fact that most orally ingested glut is "comsumed" by the GI tract, and you can see why layne is so anti-glutamine.

but the pros of orally taken glutamine still stand. immunity, gut health, transient GH increase, increased glutathione levels, cellular hydration. glutamine is present in many protein foods, and BCAAs are glutamine precursors as well -- but to get the theraputic dose range (10-40g depending upon which research you look at), would be impractical to try to get from foods or indirectly from precursors, especially if you're going to specifically time the doses.

the bottom line is that right now it's premature to totally trash glutamine for anticatabolic purposes. it's becoming certain that sufficient protein & eucaloric/hypercaloric balance might render it unneccessary, but to completely toss it out for anticatabolism purposes under hypocaloric conditions should NOT be done on the basis of theory, nor should it be done based on the aforementioned 2 studies looking at it in this very context. why? first off, one of the studies showed benefit. secondly, each study was 2 weeks long (actually the 2003 study was 12 days long). it's too early to pass a blanket judgement. also, i've had great feedback from my athletes on glutamine, natural & on. could it be placebo? maybe, but research-wise, it's too early to tell for certain. but for now, i ain't gonna try to fix what ain't broke. all of my endurance athletes are on glutamine, as are all of my team sport players, and they're doing great. until more studies come up showing its ineffectiveness for anticatabolism in competitive athletes during hypocaloric balance beyond the 2 existing halfassed data sets, i'll give glutamine the benefit of the doubt. hell, the athletes can afford it fine.

[str8flexed]

i will say this much, the more i read, the more I believe glutamine may be useful for gut health, that being said, I also believe that is of minimal direct consequence for bodybuilders and certainly does not warrent the ridiculous pimping of it bu supplement companies

[alan aragon]

Originally posted by str8flexed
i will say this much, the more i read, the more I believe glutamine may be useful for gut health, that being said, I also believe that is of minimal direct consequence for bodybuilders and certainly does not warrent the ridiculous pimping of it bu supplement companies

eh, "ridiculous pimping" of products is pretty much the job of supp companies, sherlock layne. at least glutamine for anticatab has stood up 50% thus far in controlled clinical trials published in reputable journals. there are many products out there that are being heavily pimped that have NO controlled trials behind them - let alone published peer-reviewed controlled trials examining a relevant sample & treatment protocol.. take avant labs for example. many if not most of their products have merely theoretical benefit; no controlled published trials - only enthusiastic anecdotes. but anecdotal testimonials are obviously not placebo-controlled. this is the nature of the supplement business in general. at least avant explicitly acknowledges the theoretical nature of their products, hence the wordplay on the concept of "avant garde" -- ahead of its time; cutting edge; aka too far ahead of the curve to sit wait for published proof. does this make their products worthless & a complete waste of money? that's up to the market. correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't you a mod on avant? does this render you a hypocrite for contributing to the promotion of products based on theory minus published human intervention trials? does the theoretical nature of many avant products prevent some seriously passionate pimping? hell no. so let the glutamine pimps do their thing, don't let it cloud your objectivity & force you to preach blanketly in the opposite direction. that takes you out of the realm of science & into the realm of bias, emotion, and an overextended desire to debunk something that doesn't warrant any vehement debunking at this point in time. let's wait for more & better research data on glutamine to come down the pike before we throw a party.

[Hardcore Natural]

Originally posted by alan aragon
eh, "ridiculous pimping" of products is pretty much the job of supp companies, sherlock layne. at least glutamine for anticatab has stood up 50% thus far in controlled clinical trials published in reputable journals. there are many products out there that are being heavily pimped that have NO controlled trials behind them - let alone published peer-reviewed controlled trials examining a relevant sample & treatment protocol.. take avant labs for example. many if not most of their products have merely theoretical benefit; no controlled published trials - only enthusiastic anecdotes. but anecdotal testimonials are obviously not placebo-controlled. this is the nature of the supplement business in general. at least avant explicitly acknowledges the theoretical nature of their products, hence the wordplay on the concept of "avant garde" -- ahead of its time; cutting edge; aka too far ahead of the curve to sit wait for published proof. does this make their products worthless & a complete waste of money? that's up to the market. correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't you a mod on avant? does this render you a hypocrite for contributing to the promotion of products based on theory minus published human intervention trials? does the theoretical nature of many avant products prevent some seriously passionate pimping? hell no. so let the glutamine pimps do their thing, don't let it cloud your objectivity & force you to preach blanketly in the opposite direction. that takes you out of the realm of science & into the realm of bias, emotion, and an overextended desire to debunk something that doesn't warrant any vehement debunking at this point in time. let's wait for more & better research data on glutamine to come down the pike before we throw a party.

Finally, someone who has something of common sense to say. As well, like said before, Layne, you can provide all the scientific studies you want to, but for each of those studies there are others to show the exact opposite. I think people need to stop relying on research so much, as studies show one thing one month and the exact opposite for the same substance the next. It's actually quite sad. Science should be taken with a grain of salt, just like many other things that are preached, said, printed, advertised etc., all over the world.

And a final note, Str8Flexed, just because you are a mod here with a degree in whatever, does not give you the right to speak like you are god. Well, I guess you can speak the way you want, but it doesn't make what you say any more credible, only less. And then you have the nerve to ridicule people for personally attacking you, when you yourself just finish attacking others. Don't be so hypocritical and one sided in your approach to discussions. If you are here to help people, then offer your opinion and help, but quit slamming people in the process and then crying about it when they dish it right back at you.

Peace.

[XTRMEWJ]

Now I don't have a biochem degree, but I do have a couple of degrees from Creighton University and one of them is in exercise science. I love the science of exercise and am constantly reading the new research. Here is what I think on the matter given what I have read and experienced:

1. Glutamine, as stated above, is the most abundant AA in the body...that alone warrants supplementation.

2. During times of stress and dieting, it is released from muscle tissue and that is bad as far as bodybuilding goes.

3. Supplementing with glutamine can not be a bad thing, as its simply going to raise your levels of glutamine and have, at the very least, a slightly anti-catabolic effect. It is also a good immune booster and that never hurts.

Now I have yet to look at the research on this, but since the body works primarily on a negative-feedback principle, it would seem logical that if you have suffiecent levels of serum glutamine floating around, the body would not activate the release of glutamine from the cells(at least on a significant level)...hence a strong anti-catabolic effect.

Now personally, I use glutamine all the time. I use it once a day in the off-season...taking 10 grams with my protein shake right before bed. During contest prep, I use it at least twice a day, in conjunction with HMB and have been very pleased with it. I am not claiming I get huge off it by any means, but I feel it spares some muscle and in the end, thats what its all about if you plan to step on stage...it is a little $$$$, but then again my muscle is worth it.

Sean

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by XTRMEWJ
Now I don't have a biochem degree, but I do have a couple of degrees from Creighton University and one of them is in exercise science. I love the science of exercise and am constantly reading the new research. Here is what I think on the matter given what I have read and experienced:

1. Glutamine, as stated above, is the most abundant AA in the body...that alone warrants supplementation.

2. During times of stress and dieting, it is released from muscle tissue and that is bad as far as bodybuilding goes.

3. Supplementing with glutamine can not be a bad thing, as its simply going to raise your levels of glutamine and have, at the very least, a slightly anti-catabolic effect. It is also a good immune booster and that never hurts.



Sean

1. it is the most abundant b/c it is the most easily produced by the body
2. which it can be easily replaced providing one is consuming enough nitrogen in their diet (total protein)
3. not a bad thing... if your rich