My bench is weak and also at a standstill! HELP!

[Kiknskreem]

Exercise variety
Higher rep range
More volume

Essentially bodybuilding training. I'm curious why the 5x5/Rippletoez advocates think they can't do that from day one for "optimal results"?

Some people put more importance on the intitial novice progression on the big lifts rather than working in higher rep range or getting more volume in initially.

This is the problem. No specified focus!!!

Use body building techniques to become a better bodybuilder.

Use strength training techniques to become a better weight lifter.

If you needed knee surgery you wouldn't go to a neurologist. You would seek out an orthopedist.

Specialization is key to upping the bar in any discipline.

I am speaking to novices. Obviously with progression comes a need for specialization, however there are very successful philosophies that focus on overall general preparation of all athletes for the rigors of organized physical activity. Not everybody believes that newbs should get sport specific from day one.

[Shaun1990]

Wow, this thread is turning into a flame fest, which I admit to being partially responsible for.

To get it back on track I'll give the OP some advice from a man far more experienced than myself. From: http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/sh...952#post216952

(I bolded the parts which I think most apply to the OP)

Most teen diets (and typical American diets also) SUCK and are simply not suited for maximal mass gain. Just throwing in a ton of calories and not getting enough protein just makes most guys fat. Having said that SOME (the minority) with screaming metabolisms will get by on some junk food ALONG WITH clean food to boost calories.

You need 1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight--especially at your age.

If you have not weighed and logged your food in something like fitday.com, the VAST majority of you will have inadequate diets to grow well. Simple as that. If you are guessing, you are likely WRONG.

There is no reason for a teen age lifter to be doing a keto diet. It drives me nuts. You guys see the advanced older guys doing it for contest prep, or in some cases lean massing and assume it is what you need--YOU ARE WRONG. I have NEVER put a teen on a keto unless they were getting ready for a competition, and then only the last 6 weeks or so out.

Lots of you think the more workload (sets/lifts/frequency) the faster you will gain--wrong again. Most of you will gain on low-mid volume routines done 3 days a week.

You are NOT advanced bodybuilders at your age--QUIT DOING 5 day a week bodypart splits.

At your stage of the game strength training IS size training. Quit asking if a routine is good for hypertrophy. If it is getting you stronger, it will get you bigger given time and good diet.

Rippetoes works well for many BEGINNERS. If it doesn't work for you QUIT DOING IT. Just because it has a cult following on BB.com does not mean it is the ultimate routine for young lifters. Many people simply do NOT have good enough CNS recovery to squat 3 times a week.

You NEED to be taking a good multi-vitamin and fish oil. Using a one a day does NOT cut it. See this thread. http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=18735

You should not be specializing on any bodyparts unless you bench at least 250 for reps, squat 350 for reps, and pull 350 for reps. That is for teen lifters. The numbers are higher for adults but some teens do develop good physiques and can benefit from extra workload.

If you are not a rank beginner and are gaining 1 lb a week, you are likely just getting fat.

If you are too lazy to research do this routine:

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8050

It's not perfect and some of you will need less, and others MAY benefit from more workload. But it will work for the vast majority of you if diet is good.

You do NOT need 3-5 lifts a bodypart at this stage. You need 1-2 GOOD lifts that you can continually get stronger on.

If you are not squatting and deadlifting you are wasting your time--simple as that. Those lifts work 75-85% of your musculature. Something like a curl works less than 5%. What do you think will make you grow more?

What worked for you when you first started lifting may not work at all after the newbie gains are dried up. That is why you see so many guys that never grow. Like most people they started with high frequency volume work and grew a lot. So they assume they have found the key. The reality is almost anything would have worked on an untrained body. But......they always equate the initial gains to what works........even after it quits working. Same thing with Rippetoes. They do it, build up to some OK lifts, and then think since it worked so well at first it is all they need. Few lifters can PRODUCTIVELY squat 300+ lbs 3 x a week.

It should go without saying you do NOT need, nor SHOULD NOT be doing steroids or pro-hormones. If you are not patient enough to wait until you are 22+, you are not patient enough for this sport. This is assuming you live somewhere this is legal (it still is in MANY countries) or we are talking about legal pro-hormones.

While you should not continue doing a routine that isn't working, jumping around from routine to routine is useless for most of you. It should take about 4 weeks to determine if a routine is working for you. How do you know it is working? Strength should be going up. That should be your primary indicator of success.

Neural gains precede all size gains. You will have to get stronger before you get bigger and most initial gains are neural. Lots of people do a routine for 4-6 weeks, get a lot stronger and then dump the routine because they look in the mirror and don't look like Arnold. It takes TIME.

If your diet sucks (not enough protein/cals) you can get a lot stronger without getting much bigger.

You are trying to mature a young body and grow muscle at the same time. LOTS of you will have bodies that will simply prioritize maturation over muscle mass. Be patient, and if you are getting stronger and not bigger (over the course of MONTHS NOT WEEKS) it is likely your diet that is stalled, not your training.

When you stall you need time off, a deload (cut volume in half, or intensity to 85% for two weeks) or a new routine. If a lift stalls, small changes will likely make it move again. Change reps, hand or foot spacing, and other small variable before scrapping the lift.

Your body adapts to rep ranges first. Lifts second. All you guys that think you can run 5 x 5 with the same lifts forever are clueless.

The two biggest attributes most of you lack are consistency and patience. Most teen lifters give it their all for a few weeks or few months, then backslide. Few are patient enough. You will DRAMATICALLY change your physique the first year lifting if you are consistent and do everything correctly. After the first year gains will slow a lot. It takes years for people that do not have great genetics to build a great physique. If that is too long, find another sport. It is a lot easier to be consistent if you are making good progress. Most of you have incompatible diets and routines that are MUCH TOO ADVANCED for your current level to make good gains. Start at the beginning

IA

Hope this helps you OP.

[XXX666]

No thanks.

I'm not going to get into this with you thick.

Go on Kiki, have your power lifting buddies "set this guy straight"

[Kiknskreem]

Go on Kiki, have your power lifting buddies "set this guy straight"

This is a subjective discussion on training ideas... not some idiot confused about deadlift mechanics.

[SquatTilYouDrop]

I am speaking to novices. Obviously with progression comes a need for specialization, however there are very successful philosophies that focus on overall general preparation of all athletes for the rigors of organized physical activity. Not everybody believes that newbs should get sport specific from day one.

I do!

If you want to be great at bodybuilding. Do those things that bodybuilders do exclusively. Live it and breath it. That's how you get better. If you want to be half ass or average do a little bit of everything. Jack of all trades. You may be good at them all but you will never be great.

[Dominik]

Some people put more importance on the intitial novice progression on the big lifts rather than working in higher rep range or getting more volume in initially.

I started out training that way and I don't think it hurt my progress. If anything it was the best way to work my way into it. I got a lot of practice with higher reps and never had a single injury.

Look at it this way: a lot of skinny ectos with weak joints and flimsy connective tissue are jumping in the deep end with complicated compound lifts and lofty goals. In those first few months most of the gains are neural and connective tissue can only adapt so fast, and there they are grinding through heavy low rep sets with questionable form that absolutely beats the **** out of their joints.

[Kiknskreem]

Look at it this way: a lot of skinny ectos with weak joints and flimsy connective tissue are jumping in the deep end with complicated compound lifts. In those first few months most of the gains are neural and connective tissue can only adapt so fast, and there they are grinding through heavy low rep sets with questionable form that absolutely beats the **** out of their joints.

Even more information in support of a general preparatory phase before moving onto the more specialized, more highly demanding sport specific training! Start with bodyweight stuff, get GPP up there, strengthen connective tissue, enhance motor skills, I'm all for it!

Weightlifting as a whole is a very safe activity, even considering the fact that probably the vast majority of people execute movements incorrectly, so in short... even without such a general prep phase I wouldn't be worried about undue injury on a novice who takes his time, reviews relevant materials, and then undergoes a Starting Strength or SF 5x5 type routine.

[XXX666]

This is a subjective discussion on training ideas... not some idiot confused about deadlift mechanics.

Your one rep max of 405 is my warm up set x 12

Keep posting your lack of experience advice that you reguritate from others pecker head.

[Kiknskreem]

Your one rep max of 405 is my warm up set x 12

That still doesn't mean your hams and glutes break the bar off the floor in a deadlift.

[spirit3530]

Even more information in support of a general preparatory phase before moving onto the more specialized, more highly demanding sport specific training! Start with bodyweight stuff, get GPP up there, strengthen connective tissue, enhance motor skills, I'm all for it!

Weightlifting as a whole is a very safe activity, even considering the fact that probably the vast majority of people execute movements incorrectly, so in short... even without such a general prep phase I wouldn't be worried about undue injury on a novice who takes his time, reviews relevant materials, and then undergoes a Starting Strength or SF 5x5 type routine.

You don't get it.


your poison here. I am willing to wager that I could work with someone on a bodybuilding routine and your guy can have a preparatory routine and my guy will be bigger and just as strong as your guy.

[Edgar_F]

If it helps, people routinely think I weigh a considerable amount more then I do and are shocked to here otherwise.

I was gonna say that, brah. You look at least 215 to me. And JACKED!










































n00dz exchange?

[SquatTilYouDrop]

Weightlifting as a whole is a very safe activity, even considering the fact that probably the vast majority of people execute movements incorrectly, so in short... even without such a general prep phase I wouldn't be worried about undue injury on a novice who takes his time, reviews relevant materials, and then undergoes a Starting Strength or SF 5x5 type routine.

Many people get injured at weight lifting regardless of preparation or form. Things just happen. All you can do is reduce the chance of injury by playing it as smart as you can. Weight lifting can be very risky. Certainly more than things like jogging or the stair master but the benefits many times out weigh the risks. Don't kid yourself.

[SDFlip]

Nice ad hominem when we were having a reasonable discussion on training methods.

5'9 195... 5'6 175. Really not a big difference there.

are you f*cking serious?

look at your pics/vids and look at his. not a big difference?

[Kiknskreem]

Many people get injured at weight lifting regardless of preparation or form. Things just happen. b][All you can do is reduce the chance of injury by playing it as smart as you can.[/b] Weight lifting can be very risky. Certainly more than things like jogging or the stair master but the benefits many times out weigh the risks. Don't kid yourself.

And preparation isn't part of playing it as smart as one can?

are you f*cking serious?

look at your pics/vids and look at his. not a big difference?

Size wise there is not a huge difference between me and blunt. I didn't say I had a more "bb'er" physique.

[XXX666]

That still doesn't mean your hams and glutes break the bar off the floor in a deadlift.

You might actually learn something if you shut up and read some of the legit information. Your weak mind might have a hard time filtering the BS but amazingly there are a few on this forum that know a lot.

Otherwise go here and stay here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=33

Your inability to think outside of your own skull is your personal cancer.

[SDFlip]

Size wise there is not a huge difference between me and blunt. I didn't say I had a more "bb'er" physique.

if you say so pal

[SquatTilYouDrop]

And preparation isn't part of playing it as smart as one can?

My point was...weight lifting with even the best preparation is riskier than other athletic activities like running or swimming. You're making it sound like it's a stroll in the park. It isn't. One slip of a heavy weight the wrong way with even the best training can lead to horrible consequences. That's what makes it risky. Never heard of a career ending stair master accident.

[blackthursday]

Your one rep max of 405 is my warm up set x 12

Keep posting your lack of experience advice that you reguritate from others pecker head.

you also have a 13 year lead on him...

and you , TAAB, and spirit all seem to have a tough time having a civilized conversation without calling names and pointing fingers

just an observation




I think the whole argument is just going in a gigantic circle... I don't doubt that you could make a kid big and strong on a bb routine from day one, and I also don't doubt you could do the same with a strength routine, but the only way to tell would be to take the same kid and make him do both routines from the start, which is impossible. For every kid you find that had great progress on a bb routine, I will find one that had great progress on a strength routine. It's kind of a pointless argument. As long as the person doing the routine is making progress, then everything is fine and dandy. The OP isn't making progress, obviously this isn't fine and dandy.

[spirit3530]

your 19, now that we have everyone's age ...

[nads786]

You don't get it.


your poison here. I am willing to wager that I could work with someone on a bodybuilding routine and your guy can have a preparatory routine and my guy will be bigger and just as strong as your guy.

THIS

[XXX666]

you also have a 13 year lead on him...

and you , TAAB, and spirit all seem to have a tough time having a civilized conversation without calling names and pointing fingers

just an observation




I think the whole argument is just going in a gigantic circle... I don't doubt that you could make a kid big and strong on a bb routine from day one, and I also don't doubt you could do the same with a strength routine, but the only way to tell would be to take the same kid and make him do both routines from the start, which is impossible. For every kid you find that had great progress on a bb routine, I will find one that had great progress on a strength routine. It's kind of a pointless argument. As long as the person doing the routine is making progress, then everything is fine and dandy. The OP isn't making progress, obviously this isn't fine and dandy.

A few pages before this one we gave the OP a lot of sound advice. While other self proclaimed experts tried to highjack the thread by spewing vomit advice.

[Shaun1990]

and you , TAAB, and spirit all seem to have a tough time having a civilized conversation without calling names and pointing fingers

Well when you have a forum mainly populated by people who aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the box then what do you expect? Such is why bb.com has the reputation it does amongst other weight training sites.

There is a lot of good information here, but there's also a whole load of **** which must be sifted through in order to find it. There's a lot of good posters here who are extremely knowledgeable, but there's also a whole load of people who think they're some sort of authority on weight training, when the reality is they might know what works for them and how to train themselves, but their advice clearly won't work on an extreme novice who sadly isn't blessed with the best genetics with regards to building muscle mass and strength.

That's why I'm basically a parrot for other, far more experienced and stronger trainers who get great results with their genetically average trainees.

[spirit3530]

Read the stickies then post^^^^^

[Drekkor]

I've trained a few friends, family, and coworkers who trust me w/a simple 3x8 inverse pyramid scheme - but there are many methods that 'work' and optimal performance is a guessing game that apparently only kiknscream seems to have complete understanding of.

My observation from training:

1. Some people don't progress because they don't push themselves. You can try a carrot, a whip, or guilt but ultimately what they need is a fire - they HAVE to want it.

2. Rep ranges - sometimes a lower rep range is easier for newbs because bewbs have no guage and will go too heavy too soon for a good 8-12 rep scheme to work properly. However, if you're coaching them and selecting weight based on observing their performance you can avoid the pitfall of ego overrulling a clean 8 reps for a crappy 5 using 'kips'.

3. 3x8 works fine for str & size - I took a kid this summer who had never touched a weight in his life. Taught him the importance of a clean diet, lifting to 'failure', and gave him a basic 5 day rotation, 5 lifts /day routine that took 45-60 minutes. He had a severely weak left arm to begin with, his first 'arm' day (yes, we did iso arm work RIGHT OFF THE BAT /gasp) his right could handle 15lb dbs and left could only handle 5lbs (haha right?) He also could only db shoulder press 25 lbs, 35 lbs on db chest press and his arms were terribly shakey. In 5 mo he put on ~20 lbs, pretty clean (155 to 175 lbs, ~5'8") and increased almost all his lifts by ~250%.

4. The bantering in here is hogwash - the OP is interested in growth, he should look into bb'ing routines from the get go imo... what advantage is there to doing a 5x5 str training routine?

[SquatTilYouDrop]

you also have a 13 year lead on him...

and you , TAAB, and spirit all seem to have a tough time having a civilized conversation without calling names and pointing fingers

just an observation




I think the whole argument is just going in a gigantic circle... I don't doubt that you could make a kid big and strong on a bb routine from day one, and I also don't doubt you could do the same with a strength routine, but the only way to tell would be to take the same kid and make him do both routines from the start, which is impossible. For every kid you find that had great progress on a bb routine, I will find one that had great progress on a strength routine. It's kind of a pointless argument. As long as the person doing the routine is making progress, then everything is fine and dandy. The OP isn't making progress, obviously this isn't fine and dandy.

ThickAsABrick and Spirit are both bodybuilders who give solid consistent BODYBUILDING advice on a bodybuilding website based on their personal experience. They are not about to let the powerlifters and noobs spew mis-information without attempting to correct it.

The goals of bodybuilding and powerlifting are different. Plain and simple. Do you not understand that? The training methodology is different. A powerlifters main goals is to lift the most weight he or she can. Powerlifters may gain large developed muscles by happenstance from lifting heavy weights but that is not the goal and thus there lies the confusion. A noob sees an accomplished powerlifter and noticies development and falsly thinks his training methods are bodybuilding methods when in fact they are not.

The main goal of a bodybuilder is to build the largest muscles he or she can with symmetry for overall aesthetic appeal. That's it. Nothing circular or nebulas about any of it. That's going to be accomplished by lifting both heavy and light weights in a myriad of set/rep schemes hitting muscles from different angles. Not just heavy weights in a low rep scheme. That will limit total development. That's all Spirit and TAAB were trying to say. They will only strike back when they are attacked and hear bullsh*it. So will I...

[6Four]

My goal is hypertrophy, not strength, and so far I'm progressing pretty well. But for the last 5 sessions I did bench press, I always had the same one rep max.

Please don't laugh, but the last two times I could only do 110 for 5 reps, and couldn't get the bar entirely up on the 6th. But please don't forget, I'm a relatively tall guy and you know what is being said about tall guys benching...

I'm not progressing at all in that category. What would be options to improve my bench? Not doing it for some time and picking it up again later on, or just doing 20 rep sets for now?

I'd never laugh at your bench, that's not what we are here for I too am a tall guy, I'm 6'4". But it seems like you are over-working your chest based on your split...which can only impede your gains.

Also, what do they say about tall guys benching? You mean because we have longer arms? I never quite that of it that way...but then again, I don't know any better - I've always been tall!

BTW - You have a well-defined back. Looking good.

[SDFlip]

That's why I'm basically a parrot .

^^^

haha

[8-Hype]

I'd never laugh at your bench, that's not what we are here for I too am a tall guy, I'm 6'4". But it seems like you are over-working your chest based on your split...which can only impede your gains.

Also, what do they say about tall guys benching? You mean because we have longer arms? I never quite that of it that way...but then again, I don't know any better - I've always been tall!

BTW - You have a well-defined back. Looking good.

Thanks. And as I said, I will do low volume for chest now and won't bench for 6 weeks or so.

[Hotshot123]

deloaddd.

[Hotshot123]

deload.