Bros (real world guys) vs Science Guys (studies only please) pic battle

[XX1]

I never said they didn't matter...they do! I'm just not so sure that they play the role that some people say they do. Way too many people have WILLED themselves into being top professional athletes with horsecrap genetics. Way too many obese, diabetic people have WILLED themselves to be thin and healthy. Way too many people do the very best they can with the hand they are dealt and don't use genetics as an excuse or another reason why they aren't where they want to be. That's really the point I was after. I think we agree, just on a different level...

Sporto

I think we do.....

you touch on WILL....and that I believe is a huge missing link for a lot of people. it really is amazing the power that lies dormant in the mind

[Phosphate bond]

I think we do.....

you touch on WILL....and that I believe is a huge missing link for a lot of people. it really is amazing the power that lies dormant in the mind

I agree willpower is definitely a very important component to any goal. Hopefully it gets combined with some intelligent strategy at the same time (*crosses fingers)

[XX1]

I agree willpower is definitely a very important component to any goal. Hopefully it gets combined with some intelligent strategy at the same time (*crosses fingers)

that certainly would help people chances!

[Phosphate bond]

http://www.mypyramid.gov/pyramid/index.html

Here is the new food pyramid.

Flame away, but I actually like how the carb macro is heavily weighted towards vegetables and fruits.

Of course a person can increase protein individually, but I wonder how many of these positive 40% protein testimonies are due to using mainly carbs like brown rice, steel cut oats and wheat bread. In these cases I bet the higher protein is working better mainly because lean meat, chicken, fish is just more nutritious (not because of the extra aminos)

[Liveralone]

me at my fattest about 3 years ago



me using broscience about Feb 2007




me eating "reasonably" and not counting macros this summer, the fat is back with a vengeance



Bro science wins!

Bally fitness va beach blvd

[imccarthy]

For those of you that claim that Tommy have some sort of "magical" genetics - here you go:

[namtrag]

I think we do.....

you touch on WILL....and that I believe is a huge missing link for a lot of people. it really is amazing the power that lies dormant in the mind

My "will" just works better when I follow bro science, just eat the same thing almost every meal, takes away the mental part of it!

[namtrag]

I never said they didn't matter...they do! I'm just not so sure that they play the role that some people say they do. Way too many people have WILLED themselves into being top professional athletes with horsecrap genetics. Way too many obese, diabetic people have WILLED themselves to be thin and healthy. Way too many people do the very best they can with the hand they are dealt and don't use genetics as an excuse or another reason why they aren't where they want to be. That's really the point I was after. I think we agree, just on a different level...

Sporto

Sporto

I guess I am confused. I thought bro science was eating 6 meals a day equally divided calorie-wise, and eating only "approved" foods in certain combinations, and at certain times of the day, similar to the scivation approach I tried a couple of years back. It worked!

I thought the science type people disagree with this. As long as you eat the right number of calories, adequate protein, fiber, etc, it really doesn't matter what the rest of the food is.

Maybe I have it all backwards.

all I know is when I get real anal about eating, have it all mapped out on a daily basis with little to no freedom of choice, my willpower becomes much better.

Whatever that is called, it works for me.

Maybe my genetics are ok, after all. I have 170 lbs of lbm, which is more than a lot of people weigh who are my height.

[XX1]

For those of you that claim that Tommy have some sort of "magical" genetics - here you go:

just because someone is on the skinny side doesnt mean they dont have the potential.

telling everyone no matter what their genetic heritage, that they can achieve laynes or tommy's hell even my physique is just kinda wrong, because for everyone that can, there are many many more that cant...no matter what they do, what supplements they take, how hard they train or how dedicated they are to their diet

[imccarthy]

just because someone is on the skinny side doesnt mean they dont have the potential.

telling everyone no matter what their genetic heritage, that they can achieve laynes or tommy's hell even my physique is just kinda wrong, because for everyone that can, there are many many more that cant...no matter what they do, what supplements they take, how hard they train or how dedicated they are to their diet

I completely disagree... Layne and Tommy are exceptional not because they are genetically gifted but because they are some of the few that really work their asses off. Anyone that blames their failure to succeed on 'bad genetics' just isn't trying hard enough.

[Drandom]

My "will" just works better when I follow bro science, just eat the same thing almost every meal, takes away the mental part of it!

Most people in this thread said broscience is the "healthy" way to eat. I dont see how eating the same foods every day with no variety is "healthy"

[XX1]

I completely disagree... Layne and Tommy are exceptional not because they are genetically gifted but because they are some of the few that really work their asses off. Anyone that blames their failure to succeed on 'bad genetics' just isn't trying hard enough.

you can disagree all you want. how many lifters have you worked with? how many people have you trained directly that have busted their ass in the gym, nailed their diet, done all their cardio, took their supps, got the right amount of sleep? now how many of them have achieved the level of either of those two?

the average person can not and will not ever look like either of those guys, no matter what they do. You have bought into the marketing hype just like nearly everyone else.

[Sporto1633]

For those of you that claim that Tommy have some sort of "magical" genetics - here you go:

Where in the bloody hell did you find that?!? And yes, for anyone following...this is me!

My "will" just works better when I follow bro science, just eat the same thing almost every meal, takes away the mental part of it!

Real science people aren't advocating eating the same thing every day. That has nothing to do with science. Now, hitting numbers to either come underneath, match, or a slight surplus beyond average caloric expenditure to produce desired results is. Completely different.

Sporto

I guess I am confused. I thought bro science was eating 6 meals a day equally divided calorie-wise, and eating only "approved" foods in certain combinations, and at certain times of the day, similar to the scivation approach I tried a couple of years back. It worked!

I thought the science type people disagree with this. As long as you eat the right number of calories, adequate protein, fiber, etc, it really doesn't matter what the rest of the food is.

Maybe I have it all backwards.

all I know is when I get real anal about eating, have it all mapped out on a daily basis with little to no freedom of choice, my willpower becomes much better.

Whatever that is called, it works for me.

Maybe my genetics are ok, after all. I have 170 lbs of lbm, which is more than a lot of people weigh who are my height.

Yes you are confused. Broscience is not saying "eating 6-7 meals a day spread out"...broscience is saying "eating 6-7 times a day speeds up your metabolism", which it doesn't There is a big difference there. There is no metabolic advantage to it. What it might do is help with satiety, or it might help the peaks and valleys of insulin for IR people...but when someone says they do that because it speeds up their metabolism - that is following broscience. If youa re doing it because you need that many meals to eat all of your calories, like doing it that way, or find that it helps you mentally to do it that way, then that is perfectly fine. See the difference? Broscience guys specifically do things and say that the reason why they are doing it is because of 'mythical science" and all the 'real science' guys are doing is saying that a) these things aren't necessary to get results and b) the science they believe for their reason is a myth.

I hope that clears this all up!

Sporto

[Sporto1633]

you can disagree all you want. how many lifters have you worked with? how many people have you trained directly that have busted their ass in the gym, nailed their diet, done all their cardio, took their supps, got the right amount of sleep? now how many of them have achieved the level of either of those two?

the average person can not and will not ever look like either of those guys, no matter what they do. You have bought into the marketing hype just like nearly everyone else.

But...you would have to be working with someone for over a decade to be able to use this in the discussion. This type of physique is not developed in a year or even two...it takes many years to turn crap genetics into something, which Layne and I have done for over a decade. Personally, I have seen people with horrible genetcis older than me, that have been training longer than me, who have a better physique than me...and they have come from worse than I did.

And take a look at Marc Lobliner...Marc was an ENORMOUS fatty and he has an amazing physique now because of all the hard work over the years. You should read his story and see all the road blocks he had to bust through to get to where he was at. It certainly was NOT genetics...

Sporto

[XX1]

But...you would have to be working with someone for over a decade to be able to use this in the discussion. This type of physique is not developed in a year or even two...it takes many years to turn crap genetics into something, which Layne and I have done for over a decade. Personally, I have seen people with horrible genetcis older than me, that have been training longer than me, who have a better physique than me...and they have come from worse than I did.

And take a look at Marc Lobliner...Marc was an ENORMOUS fatty and he has an amazing physique now because of all the hard work over the years. You should read his story and see all the road blocks he had to bust through to get to where he was at. It certainly was NOT genetics...

Sporto

Im not saying that genetics are the be all end all, they are not. BUT they are a huge factor. Its kinda like telling everyone, train real hard for a long time, do all the right things and you'll be a 400lb bencher. it just doesnt work that way. Most guys will never get their, they dont have the fiber types/cns recruitment to do it. It would be like me telling everyone I can bench 500, if you train long enough you can too. just wont happen unless you are majorly pre disposed to it like I am

really it doesnt matter, everyone needs to bust their as, do all the right things CONSISTENTLY for a long period of time and let the cards fall as they may

[Paumen]

But...you would have to be working with someone for over a decade to be able to use this in the discussion. This type of physique is not developed in a year or even two...it takes many years to turn crap genetics into something, which Layne and I have done for over a decade. Personally, I have seen people with horrible genetcis older than me, that have been training longer than me, who have a better physique than me...and they have come from worse than I did.

And take a look at Marc Lobliner...Marc was an ENORMOUS fatty and he has an amazing physique now because of all the hard work over the years. You should read his story and see all the road blocks he had to bust through to get to where he was at. It certainly was NOT genetics...

Sporto

Marc was a powerlifter and I personally believe that you can change somone with crappy genetics (i hate using this term) in a couple of years with nonstop dedication. Hell just look at phil heath. He was a tiny b ball player in college. So he transformed in like what 3 years? Pro in 5. I mean comon

[Sporto1633]

just because someone is on the skinny side doesnt mean they dont have the potential.

And on the flip side, just because someone is on the fat side doesn't mean it either. And you are saying that you can OBVIOUSLY tell that I have potential by seeing my tiny ass frame and poor genetics right here, huh? Okey dokey.

telling everyone no matter what their genetic heritage, that they can achieve laynes or tommy's hell even my physique is just kinda wrong, because for everyone that can, there are many many more that cant...no matter what they do, what supplements they take, how hard they train or how dedicated they are to their diet

Not only is it NOT wrong, but you SHOULD be telling people that they can achieve things. Are you telling me that you actually want to set up people mentally to either fail or not even try? People who have average or below genetics that want a physique like mine NEED to believe that they can get there. Hell, I'm going to save this picture and post it in my thread for the many who follow me to show where I came from.

The only people who 'can't' are the ones who refuse to do what it takes for as long as it takes. Period. If someone has the drive and determination to get what they want, bad genetics will NOT stop them. Look at Kurt Weidner...one of the top WNBF pros. Here is a guy who has some of the worst genetics in all of bodybuilding, yet he has willed himself to be at the top because of his dedication. He is incredibly strong, has done what it takes over the years, gets incredibly lean, and even though his structure is not built for bodybuilding, he always places at the top. Telling people they can't get to where I am is something I can't do like you just stated at the end of your post. Call me an optimist, but I believe people have the power to get what they want...and if it is a physique like mine and they have the drive that I have and put in the YEARS of consistent work that I did - sure, it might take them longer, or heck even less - but they WILL get there.

Sporto

[Sporto1633]

Im not saying that genetics are the be all end all, they are not. BUT they are a huge factor. Its kinda like telling everyone, train real hard for a long time, do all the right things and you'll be a 400lb bencher. it just doesnt work that way. Most guys will never get their, they dont have the fiber types/cns recruitment to do it. It would be like me telling everyone I can bench 500, if you train long enough you can too. just wont happen unless you are majorly pre disposed to it like I am

really it doesnt matter, everyone needs to bust their as, do all the right things CONSISTENTLY for a long period of time and let the cards fall as they may

This is a poor example. Benching 500lbs and acquiring a balanced, muscular and aesthetic physique are NOT in the same ballpark. Try again.

Genetics are HUGE for some things, yes. In acquiring an aesthetic, muscular physique - which is open for interpretation depending on who you are talking to, it doesn't play the role that drive and deterination do...not by a long shot.

Sporto

Sporto

[XX1]

Hell just look at phil heath. He was a tiny b ball player in college. So he transformed in like what 3 years? Pro in 5. I mean comon

using another incredibly gifted PRO as an example is just mindblowing.

if its that easy, why are there not thousands of phil heaths walking around

its because it doenst work that way

[XX1]

And on the flip side, just because someone is on the fat side doesn't mean it either. And you are saying that you can OBVIOUSLY tell that I have potential by seeing my tiny ass frame and poor genetics right here, huh? Okey dokey.



Not only is it NOT wrong, but you SHOULD be telling people that they can achieve things. Are you telling me that you actually want to set up people mentally to either fail or not even try? People who have average or below genetics that want a physique like mine NEED to believe that they can get there. Hell, I'm going to save this picture and post it in my thread for the many who follow me to show where I came from.

The only people who 'can't' are the ones who refuse to do what it takes for as long as it takes. Period. If someone has the drive and determination to get what they want, bad genetics will NOT stop them. Look at Kurt Weidner...one of the top WNBF pros. Here is a guy who has some of the worst genetics in all of bodybuilding, yet he has willed himself to be at the top because of his dedication. He is incredibly strong, has done what it takes over the years, gets incredibly lean, and even though his structure is not built for bodybuilding, he always places at the top. Telling people they can't get to where I am is something I can't do like you just stated at the end of your post. Call me an optimist, but I believe people have the power to get what they want...and if it is a physique like mine and they have the drive that I have and put in the YEARS of consistent work that I did - sure, it might take them longer, or heck even less - but they WILL get there.

Sporto

Tommy, if we are going to quote each other, lets not put words in each others mouths. The first quote of mine you used and then replied to. I was not saying that at all. I was a heavier kid growing up, had to wear the husky pants and all...yeah, kinda fat. I never said i could obviously tell, did I? I said just because someone is skinny growing up does not mean they dont have potential

Im all about seeing people succeed. Im a trainer myself, both in my own studio and online through redpointfitness.com It is our mission to get people where they want to be. While encouragement is paramount and I fully believe in it, i also do not believe in lying to people and telling everyone that if they work hard, long enough that they can look like a top level BB'er regardless of federation or drug usage.

[Paumen]

[QUOTE=XX1;237040491]using another incredibly gifted PRO as an example is just mindblowing.

if its that easy, why are there not thousands of phil heaths walking around

its because it doenst work that way[/QUOTe

It was just an example showing that you do not need to feel inferior to somone because they are a pro, just be intense and grow.

[Sporto1633]

Tommy, if we are going to quote each other, lets not put words in each others mouths. The first quote of mine you used and then replied to. I was not saying that at all. I was a heavier kid growing up, had to wear the husky pants and all...yeah, kinda fat. I never said i could obviously tell, did I? I said just because someone is skinny growing up does not mean they dont have potential

Im all about seeing people succeed. Im a trainer myself, both in my own studio and online through redpointfitness.com It is our mission to get people where they want to be. While encouragement is paramount and I fully believe in it, i also do not believe in lying to people and telling everyone that if they work hard, long enough that they can look like a top level BB'er regardless of federation or drug usage.

You quoting my picture, where genetics is obviously not on my side (after saying I was blessed with great genetics), and then saying what you did about well...just because they are small doesn't mean the potential isn't there, instead of simply admitting that you were wrong about my gifted genetics was an incinuation all in itself. Sorry for putting words in your mouth, but I'm not an idiot.

And if you think that what I am referring to about this entire discussion is lying to people, then I feel bad for you because, not only are you putting words into my mouth (practice what you preach buddy), but you are missing the point completely. I'm talking about telling people to not let genetics stand in the way of getting the physique they want. That has nothing to do with telling everyone they can be a top level bodybuilder no matter what drugs they use or what federation they are in.

Let's just agree to disagree. I don't think genetics plays the HUGE role you think it does, because if it did, I would not look the way I do. No need to carry on anymore discussion.

Sporto

[alan aragon]

The only people who 'can't' are the ones who refuse to do what it takes for as long as it takes. Period.

Bingo, nailed it. This is a great gotdamn post Tommy.

It can take guys with ****ty genetics double or triple the time to achieve what the gifted guys get, but many of them quit halfway & jump from one program to the next. Bad genetics + low patience = the perfect storm for excuses.

[XX1]

You quoting my picture, where genetics is obviously not on my side (after saying I was blessed with great genetics), and then saying what you did about well...just because they are small doesn't mean the potential isn't there, instead of simply admitting that you were wrong about my gifted genetics was an incinuation all in itself. Sorry for putting words in your mouth, but I'm not an idiot.

And if you think that what I am referring to about this entire discussion is lying to people, then I feel bad for you because, not only are you putting words into my mouth (practice what you preach buddy), but you are missing the point completely. I'm talking about telling people to not let genetics stand in the way of getting the physique they want. That has nothing to do with telling everyone they can be a top level bodybuilder no matter what drugs they use or what federation they are in.

Let's just agree to disagree. I don't think genetics plays the HUGE role you think it does, because if it did, I would not look the way I do. No need to carry on anymore discussion.

Sporto

you were skinny as a kid, so what? assuming you have poor genetics simply based on that criteria is a poor way of looking at things

lets consider some factors of growth potential

Here are just SOME of the factors that ultimately determine how big and strong you get, and what paths are appropriate to get you there:

Cortisol output
Adrenaline output
Insulin output
insulin sensitivity
Thyroid output
Thyroid sensitivity
Testosterone production
Testosterone/hormone sensitivity
Testosterone to estrogen conversion
SHGB sensitivity
Testosterone to DHT conversion
Estrogen sensitivity
Growth Hormone output
Growth Hormone sensitivity
IGF output
IGF sensitivity
Digestive capability
Basic protein synthesis ability
Muscle fiber composition
Muscle fiber content
Motor unit recruitment/motor unit density
CNS output/CNS recovery
Hard wired stress response
Emotional states


guess we can tell where you fall in each of those from your pic as a kid right?

ALL THESE FACTORS ARE ALL DETERMINED BY AN INDIVIDUALS GENETICS. AND THEY DON?T VARY A LITTLE, THEY VARY A LOT.

To say genetics only accounts for a small degree of the achieved results is just wrong

This doesnt mean you cant make awesome progress or build an impressive physique, but it does mean that most just simply don?t have the potential to be top bodybuilders or look like you or layne or me. And EVERYONE responds differently. I drastically prefer optimism over pssimism and anyone that knows me will tell you that but I also prefer to be realistic with people, and potential can only be known in retrospect AFTER you have tried. But all these posts by guys saying genetics are not important and guys just use them as an excuse is purely wrong

[james.vs.you]

I completely disagree... Layne and Tommy are exceptional not because they are genetically gifted but because they are some of the few that really work their asses off. Anyone that blames their failure to succeed on 'bad genetics' just isn't trying hard enough.

So then you also believe you can hit a 101 MPH fastball by a major league pitcher, for a home run, just be trying hard enough?

Think logically. If everyone could do anything we would all be pro athletes performing open heart surgeries on our off time.

[TheWaffleIron]

Jeffers' physique is a combination of genetics and training.

For the purposes of my point, I'll assume he has "good" genetics. That said, years of training, diet, supplementation, etc. have also played a role.

[BuckSpin]

I'm going to have to politely disagree. A number of the aforementioned genetic capabilities can be improved upon. Granted, there is a reason some people are jockeys and others are Mike linebackers, but there is just absolutely no substitute for hard work, harder focus & keeping one's eyes on the prize.

The coaching phrase "Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" comes to mind.

There are a LOT of people getting paid rediculous sums of money to play kid's games professionally and, genetically, have absolutely no busy being in that position. Think Big Papi enjoyed having mighty Dustin Pedroia batting cleanup BEHIND him this season? Damn right he did....

We as a society can statistically/chemically measure & quantify about every genetic criteria you post. But I have yet to see a test that can measure drive, passion and dedication. That alone should speak volumes as to what is more important - no one except you knows how much you have.

/pulpit

[BuckSpin]

Think logically. If everyone could do anything we would all be pro athletes performing open heart surgeries on our off time.

So to confirm, you are saying its all simply chemicals and has NOTHING to do with that which can't be quantified?

[XX1]

So then you also believe you can hit a 101 MPH fastball by a major league pitcher, for a home run, just be trying hard enough?

Think logically. If everyone could do anything we would all be pro athletes performing open heart surgeries on our off time.

lovely! genetics are huge in any athletic endeavour.

Jeffers' physique is a combination of genetics and training.

For the purposes of my point, I'll assume he has "good" genetics. That said, years of training, diet, supplementation, etc. have also played a role.

I completely agree. I was never trying to incinuate that tommy or layne or any of the others mentioned havent paid more than thier share of dues.

Im the same way, you can see in any of my youtube vids I bust my ass in the gym, i eat what im supposed to, do all the right things over a long period of time

[XX1]

So to confirm, you are saying its all simply chemicals and has NOTHING to do with that which can't be quantified?

no, not at all. drive determination and all that are important, no one is arguing that they are not.


unless you are pre disposed, you will never be as remotely fast as an olympic sprinter. spend the rest of your life training for it and you wont even come close, unless of course you can already run a sub 10.5 in the hundred meters with no training. that is the power of genetics