Capitalism sucks

[J2BIGG]

capitalism
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

socialism
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Capitalism sucks.

If I was to give a football analogy of capitalism, it would look like this.

- "private individuals and corporations" = the team owners
- government = refs and commissioner & staff
- community & public = players and fans

First of all, forget the draft, and forget salary caps. Whoever has the most money will get the best players. PERIOD.

Team owners (who also own the stadiums) could ban fans of the opposing team from wearing clothes or waving signs that do not support the home team. Team owners with enough money could "lobby" refs and the commissioner to allow touch downs from their teams to count for 9 points and field goals from their team to count for 5.

Team owners could also "lobby" for the ability to eliminate boundaries that violate team "liberties and freedoms" so that the quarterback could pass to a player on the sidelines (or even a fan) and they could throw to a wide receiver for a touch down. Also, since they lobbied to eliminate boundaries, there would be no catch that was labeled incomplete because it was caught out of bounds.

Maybe they could lobby for more timeouts for their team, giving them another advantage. They could ban cheerleaders from the opposite team from cheering, or regulate that for every cheer they give to the opposing team, they also must cheer for the home team.

Long story short, without "rules and regulations" enforced by the commissioner and refs, the NFL would suck. Same thing is true in our country. Without government regulations and rules enforced upon private owned companies and organizations, society would suck.

The best mix, IMHO, is a hybrid between capitalism and socialism.

[MetaPhysical]

Your analogy is poor. Have you had any schooling on welfare economics? (Not as in welfare state, but how changes in regulation effect consumer welfare)

All your analogy demonstrates is that governments are to be faulted for pandering to lobbyists. Governments will likely have corrupt components no matter the economic system. This does not justify a judgment that capitalism is poor system. Please understand that in most circumstances (not all), that regulation results in lower consumer welfare because it results in higher costs which translate to higher prices, leading to inefficient allocations of goods, and ultimately a diminished consumer surplus and utility.

[Waitwut]

[J2BIGG]

Your analogy is poor. Have you had any schooling on welfare economics? (Not as in welfare state, but how changes in regulation effect consumer welfare)

All your analogy demonstrates is that governments are to be faulted for pandering to lobbyists. Governments will likely have corrupt components no matter the economic system. This does not justify a judgment that capitalism is poor system. Please understand that in most circumstances (not all), that regulation results in lower consumer welfare because it results in higher costs which translate to higher prices, leading to inefficient allocations of goods, and ultimately a diminished consumer surplus and utility.

I think a system in which diverse democratically elected and frequently interchanged officials regulate the corporate America from a socialist perspective offers the best chance for fairness and success for our society as a whole. Democratically elected government and appointed government that is only there for the benefit of big business and companies (ie: many Republicans) does not benefit America, but widens the social gap. That's why 50% of America's wealth is in the hands of less than 1% of the population. That's why our news coverage is owned and run by big business. That's why big business agriculture gets subsidies for producing and manufacturing crap food, our health care system is in shambles, housing is so expensive that most college grads can't consider purchasing one, and on and on and on.

It's time for American government to work for the American people, not act as a bitch to big business demands.

[MISTERDUDE]

Then move to Cuba. I'm sure they would welcome another 'comrad' to help them with their 'socialist paradise.'

[J2BIGG]

Then move to Cuba. I'm sure they would welcome another 'comrad' to help them with their 'socialist paradise.'

The sad thing is their health care system helped sick Americans when ours wouldn't (see SICKO)

[J2BIGG]

Capitalists are never happy either.

Ever watch a conservative "news" show, or hear conservative talk radio? All they ever do is complain! Everything is bad, or a crisis, or somehow bringing down America, infringing on our "rights and freedoms", or taxes, etc. Just watch Glenn Beck sometime, and you'll see what I mean. Money doesn't make them happy and more money doesn't make them happy.

[nutsy54]

The sad thing is their health care system helped sick Americans when ours wouldn't (see SICKO)

The sad thing is people actually believe any movie made by Michael Moore is based on facts

[nutsy54]

Capitalists are never happy either.

Please name one Socialist country which was, and continues to be, a tremendous success for two centuries.

Or, just name any Socialist country today that people are willing to flock into by the droves, even if it means doing so illegally. Name one Socialist country today which has a higher per-capita GDP, higher personal income, and/or higher standard of living for its "citizens" than found in the United States.

Your Utopian theories have faced the harsh test of reality many times. And they always failed that test.

[Waitwut]

Please name one Socialist country which was, and continues to be, a tremendous success for two centuries.

Russia

Cuba

[nutsy54]

Russia

Cuba

Apparently you didn't understand my question, because your answer makes no sense.

Russia? Really? How's the Soviet Union been doing for the past 20 years? And much of Russia's current success is due to their increased Capitalist policies.

As for Cuba, are you serious? Tell me, how many people are flocking into Cuba to take advantage of the great success and prosperity available there?

United States per-capita GDP: $43,400
Russia: $14,700
Cuba:$4,500

[Waitwut]

Where do your rediculous pro-Capitalist stats come from?

[etech]

Capitalists are never happy either.

Ever watch a conservative "news" show, or hear conservative talk radio? All they ever do is complain! Everything is bad, or a crisis, or somehow bringing down America, infringing on our "rights and freedoms", or taxes, etc. Just watch Glenn Beck sometime, and you'll see what I mean. Money doesn't make them happy and more money doesn't make them happy.

You are judging the happiness of conservatives by what you hear on radio talk shows?

You might want to rethink how you gather and process information.

[MISTERDUDE]

The sad thing is their health care system helped sick Americans when ours wouldn't (see SICKO)

Sounds like BS, especially since you cited a Michale Moore movie. http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/06/...-by-nhs-nurse/
........and lo and behold, it was BS! I'm shocked to find a communist supporter beleiving in BS

[Thy_Kingdom]

No, it doesn't.

[randomhero97]

Where do your rediculous pro-Capitalist stats come from?

Lol.

[nutsy54]

Where do your rediculous pro-Capitalist stats come from?

http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/...untry_desc.php
(2003 Numbers):
US: $37,800
Russia: $8,900
Cuba: $2,800

http://www.mrdowling.com/800gdppercapita.html
(2006 Numbers)
US: $41,400
Russia: $11,120
Cuba: $3,441

http://www.bls.gov/fls/flsgdp.pdf
(2006 Numbers)
US: $44,200
Russia/Cuba: Too low to list on that chart

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demograph...nd/inc-eco.htm
(2006 Numbers)
US: $43,562
Russia: $6,877
Cuba: $4,650

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/econ...iable-638.html
(2005 Numbers)
US: $41,636
Russia: $5,333
Cuba: Not listed


Pick your preferred source. A range of numbers due to different years and different economic calculations, but they all point to the same conclusion.

[nutsy54]

You are judging the happiness of conservatives by what you hear on radio talk shows?
You might want to rethink how you gather and process information.

(a) If he thinks Conservatives are grumpy, he's obviously never tuned into a Liberal talk show!

(b) Interesting that he only associates Conservatives with Capitalism. At least he's figured out what many Liberals truly stand for

[kingdd]

Basing the success of Capitalism on GDP is a very flawed perspective. America has a very high GDP due to competition, industry, and corporation.

What you need to look at is the gap between the richest people and the poorest people which is extremely pronounced in America and is growing everyday.

2% of the richest Americans make more than the other 98% combined. Sad but true.

[MetaPhysical]

I am going to add this final thought to the post. To inseparably link political ideologies with capitalism and use that to try and discredit it, with problems that are likely caused wholly, or mostly from other sources, is a flawed way to try and prove your point. To discredit it, you have to isolate it, and figure out what is wrong with it alone.

I see many people saying things along the line of "conservatives like capitalism, and I don't like what conservatives do, therefore capitalism is bad". rather than something like "lack of regulation in a capitalist system facilitates negative social externalities in the way of pollution and a skewed distribution of income, and here is why... etc". Unfounded assumptions, specially if they can be attributed to anything else, do you no good for proving ones argument.

[MISTERDUDE]

I am going to add this final thought to the post. To inseparably link political ideologies with capitalism and use that to try and discredit it, with problems that are likely caused wholly, or mostly from other sources, is a flawed way to try and prove your point. To discredit it, you have to isolate it, and figure out what is wrong with it alone.

I see many people saying things along the line of "conservatives like capitalism, and I don't like what conservatives do, therefore capitalism is bad". rather than something like "lack of regulation in a capitalist system facilitates negative social externalities in the way of pollution and a skewed distribution of income, and here is why... etc". Unfounded assumptions, specially if they can be attributed to anything else, do you no good for proving ones argument.

That was a good post to sum things up.

[kingdd]

I am going to add this final thought to the post. To inseparably link political ideologies with capitalism and use that to try and discredit it, with problems that are likely caused wholly, or mostly from other sources, is a flawed way to try and prove your point. To discredit it, you have to isolate it, and figure out what is wrong with it alone.

I see many people saying things along the line of "conservatives like capitalism, and I don't like what conservatives do, therefore capitalism is bad". rather than something like "lack of regulation in a capitalist system facilitates negative social externalities in the way of pollution and a skewed distribution of income, and here is why... etc". Unfounded assumptions, specially if they can be attributed to anything else, do you no good for proving ones argument.

Some good points there.

I believe the Government needs to act as a moderator to some degree with the economy. You cannot have a 100% hands-off economy and say that whoever ends up rich deserves it because they competed and won. The truth is that it takes money to make money. The people lucky enough to be born into rich families are the ones who stay on top. The same families who were at the top of the economical food chain from the inception of the United States are still the richest to this day. There is a huge problem with that in my opinion.

[MISTERDUDE]

Some good points there.

I believe the Government needs to act as a moderator to some degree with the economy. You cannot have a 100% hands-off economy and say that whoever ends up rich deserves it because they competed and won. The truth is that it takes money to make money. The people lucky enough to be born into rich families are the ones who stay on top. The same families who were at the top of the economical food chain from the inception of the United States are still the richest to this day. There is a huge problem with that in my opinion.

Capitalism isn't perfect, but it is better than socialistic alternatives which take away the incentive structure. Obviously distribution of wealth is a problem, but where and when hasn't that been the case? It would be even worse in a non-capitlist system where only the rich have any opportunity at all!
At least the average American has their needs (food, shelter, etc) taken care of and even enjoys many luxeries beyond what most people are able to enjoy. Education is the key to success, but far too many americans turn up their nose at it and and spend their time wasting time.

[Melkor]

Capitalism isn't perfect, but it is better than socialistic alternatives which take away the incentive structure. Obviously distribution of wealth is a problem, but where and when hasn't that been the case? It would be even worse in a non-capitlist system where only the rich have any opportunity at all!
At least the average American has their needs (food, shelter, etc) taken care of and even enjoys many luxeries beyond what most people are able to enjoy. Education is the key to success, but far too many americans turn up their nose at it and and spend their time wasting time.

Anyone that thinks Americans are poor is living in the land of Delusion. The poor in America are better off than the middle class in many countries.

[SDMuscleBuddy]

Capitalism isn't perfect, but it is better than socialistic alternatives which take away the incentive structure. Obviously distribution of wealth is a problem, but where and when hasn't that been the case? It would be even worse in a non-capitlist system where only the rich have any opportunity at all!

You should google "gini coefficient" and see that there is little difference between socialism and capitalism in regards to wealth distribution. Looking throughout history, whenever the distribution of wealth gets so far out of balance, the system fell. It will happen here, and at the pace things are moving right now, it will happen soon.

In regards to incentive, what incentive is there for an individual these days to become an independent entrepreneur? The system has stacked the deck so high in favor of the six corporations, or less, who control their respective industries that success is all but impossible. The number of people who hit it big on the lottery exceeds the number who do so in business.

At least the average American has their needs (food, shelter, etc) taken care of and even enjoys many luxeries beyond what most people are able to enjoy. Education is the key to success, but far too many americans turn up their nose at it and and spend their time wasting time.

What do you mean by "taken care of"? Most families need at least two incomes to afford those necessities, but what of those people who in spite of their best efforts still end up homeless or hungry? Do we just assume they are lazy and justify our ignorance, or do we offer some sort of assistance? (Not handouts for those who choose not to work, so don't start.) Life isn't a game of Hold 'em where the winner takes all and the losers end up with nothing, is it?

While I agree that education is the key, we as a nation don't place enough stock in that. Too many students graduating high school are neither given the tools they need to make it in the real world, or in college, if they can afford to go to a school of higher learning. There should be two tracts secondary school students can take: One that preps you for life in the world with only a High School Diploma (managing money and credit would be a good course, I think), and one that preps you for college. Trying to do both may not be the best curiculum.

[J2BIGG]

I am going to add this final thought to the post. To inseparably link political ideologies with capitalism and use that to try and discredit it, with problems that are likely caused wholly, or mostly from other sources, is a flawed way to try and prove your point. To discredit it, you have to isolate it, and figure out what is wrong with it alone.

I see many people saying things along the line of "conservatives like capitalism, and I don't like what conservatives do, therefore capitalism is bad". rather than something like "lack of regulation in a capitalist system facilitates negative social externalities in the way of pollution and a skewed distribution of income, and here is why... etc". Unfounded assumptions, specially if they can be attributed to anything else, do you no good for proving ones argument.

I disagree. You speak in terms of the ideal and theoretical. I speak in terms of reality. You cannot isolate capitalism from the conservative right and our political landscape. That's like separating fish from water when discussing how they swim. Their motions are dependent upon the water, just as the actions, anger, and politics of conservatives are dependent upon capitalistic thinking.

As for "proving one's argument", I'm not sure that was the intent of the OP as much as it was expressing one's opinion. You disliked my analogy, and said it was poor because it merely dealt with corruption in government (ie: lobbyists running Washington). If that's all you saw, then I'm not sure you saw what I was trying to point out.

My intent of the OP was not to merely highlight corrupt areas of government and big business. Rather, it was to show how the enjoyable game of football can be whittled away into nothing more than a corrupt, unfair, unbalanced chaotic mess, when approached from a capitalistic point of view. And that image parallels the state of our nation, in which (as mentioned earlier) 2% of the population owns 98% of the wealth, and Walmarts and Microsofts mercilessly crush small startups. We've become so saturated in this corrupt capitalistic mess, that many rarely notice it and just accept it as part of life. Rarely is it mentioned WHY Americans have an obesity crisis greater than most any other nation in the world, and WHY Americans suffer from anxiety and depression and heart disease and ADD and on and on at rates higher than other nations, and WHY we pollute more than other nations, etc. Why is it, that in the richest country in the world, the great democracy called America where we will stomp foreign nations to spread human rights, why is it that in our own nation people are attending schools that look like they belong in third world countries? Why is it we rank so low in math and science? Why is it that, with all of our countries wealth, that educated college students can't afford to buy a home and stay in debt for years and decades? Why is it that successful working Americans with Health Insurance still get screwed over by our health care system and end up losing their homes trying to pay their medical bills? Why is it many of our veterans who fought to protect this nation, live under bridges and ask to borrow 50 cents from me when I walk down the streets, and even for those that do have homes, they struggle with the VA and paying for college.

I could go on, but the corporate owned media would rather talk about flag pins and is Obama black? Did Hillary suffer from sexism? Is John McCain the victim of ageism, rather than tackle these issues. Pundits will leave their lexuses in the parking lot, finish their catered lunches and lattes, laugh and giggle through 2 hours of the broadcast then briefly mention gas prices and make the only question whether McCain or Obama can better sell their talking points to the public. That's elitist and based on capitalism and possibly darwinism.

In my opinion, the real source of all of these problems is an individualistic, capitalistic philosophy that has been embraced by America, and spits in the face of "all men are created equal" and replaces it with "more money makes you more equal, and those that want to regulate your money or money making are evil". Without rambling further, I'll repeat: Capitalism sucks. In theory, maybe not, in reality, YES it really does suck.

[Waitwut]

^^Great answer comrade!

[headtrip]

when will you people learn the difference between capitalism and corporatism? when will you realize that the right and definitely most of the neocons are fascists and not free market conservatives? i admit, it took me a while to figure that out. they talk a good game, but their actions speak for themselves. they are advancing a nationalistic fascist agenda, whether they realize it or not.

try to see the big picture, there isn't a major political party actively promoting free market capitalism. there hasn't been for quite some time. to blame what is going on in this country on capitalism is just plain ignorant.

[RIP Quorthon]

Scum.

[Waitwut]

Scum.

It wont be long till the soviet's scarlet flag will rise from the ground soon its glorious might and power will be shone upon the world crushing the idiotic capitalist ignorants

As for you soviet haters out there go read what true communism is and your eyes will be opened

You capitalists dont accept the faults of your system and try to cover it up in dirt