MWC - Official Misc Wristwatch Crew Part VI: Patek or Bust - READ the OP

[GM54]

thoughts on this ? based on your guys far greater knowledge, does it pass the look test for being authentic? what is the most you would ever consider paying for it? love the style.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/183305644727

Got a nice scratch right by 55...ouch

[pep_meister]

the hamilton i got two weeks ago and the ball trainmaster i just got in the mail today.

[MetroBrah]

the hamilton i got two weeks ago and the ball trainmaster i just got in the mail today.

ya done good pep. ya done good. I've eyed both of those models at some point in my watch journey

[pep_meister]

ya done good pep. ya done good. I've eyed both of those models at some point in my watch journey

thanks a million man. the thread helped a lot picking the two out and was reading through watchseek. don’t really know what im looking at used and authenticity makes me nervous online.

the ball despite it only costing me a little more than the hamilton feels like 5x the watch when i was unboxing and put it on. the band is super comfortable. i was thinking id probably wear it daily but seeing it in person, i’ll probably just go with the hamilton. to me the hamilton is the kind of watch that can get banged up and still look great.

[pep_meister]

so i picked up one of these for $40. i guess you call them frankenstein watches? where its not really original outside the casing? i liked the bmw m series color scheme.

the band is 18m lug to lug. can anyone reccomend some good cheap straps that will fit this thing? $30-$50~~~

[jaimeruiz99]

H. Moser and Cie: The Russian Patek?



Switzerland, France, Germany and Japan are considered to be the quartet of watchmaking, so much so that watches made in any other country are often considered to be of sub-standard quality by horology enthusiasts, much like how some cigar aficionados scoff at any brand that isn't grown, rolled and packaged in Cuba (obligatory photo of Che Guevara wearing a Rolex watch while smoking a Cuban cigar included).



This phenomenon among watch purists isn't all that hard to comprehend however, given that all of these four countries have a long and storied history when it comes to watch manufacturing and manufacturing in general. So how come Russia, a country historically well-known for its many artisans and it's own long and storied history with luxury goods manufacturing (primarily through the works of Gustav Faberge), very rarely comes up in discussions among luxury horology enthusiasts (apart from the occasional reference to Konstantin Chaykin)?

Up until the Russian revolution in 1917, Breguet, a French watch manufacturer, was considered to be the premiere timepiece supplier to some of the most powerful people in Russia and of course, the Russian Imperial court. In fact, Russia was Breguet's main foreign market leading up to the collapse of the Russian monarchy.



But what if I told you Breguet did in fact have competition, that there was another luxury watchmaker in the Russian aristocratic scene? Russian competition. Competition that was older than both Audemars Piguet and Patek Philippe and with a comparable horological prowess to boot?

That brand was H. Moser and Cie. Doesn't ring a bell? Well I'll get to that later.

In 1828, Swiss-born H. Moser moved to Russia and started his own watch brand, which was responsible for supplying watches to politicians, royalty and just about anyone who could afford them. In fact, H. Moser was also responsible for supplying movements to Faberge and even warranted a mention in one of Dostoevsky's works - attaining a status comparable to that of Patek today.



In 1874 Moser died, and his wife, who knew nothing about watchmaking and business apparently, sought the help of a businessman who put a person named Octave Meylan in charge. And while things were all good and dandy for a while, in 1917, the Russian revolution took place and decimated H. Moser and Cie as well as just about every other purveyor of 'bourgeois' excess and luxury, wiping out any trace of Russia's history as a horology powerhouse (photo of mass-produced Soviet-era watch included).



In 2002, the great-grandson of Moser decided to re-establish the company, and in the process of doing so, sought out the help of Audemar Piguet's CEO, who at that time, was responsible for propelling the brand's meteoric growth primarily by introducing what is arguably the brand's best-selling watch of all time: the Royal Oak Offshore. That man's name was Georges-Henri Meylan, and yes, Octave Meylan was his grandfather.



Now you might be wondering: how exactly does this make Moser and Cie, at least the modern iteration of the company, in any way comparable to Patek Philippe? Because of this:



This small round wire in the photo is called a balance spring. Again, so what?

Moser and Cie is as in-house as in-house gets. Everything inside of a H. Moser and Cie watch is produced in-house, even the balance spring - which is something just about every other major luxury watch brand has to source from third party companies, of which there are very few, primarily because it is so difficult to make them. One of those companies is a subsidiary of H. Moser and Cie - which is how they get away with making only 1,500 watches a year and selling each for little more than the cost of a steel Rolex Daytona whilst still earning a profit.

[dbluevette]

H. Moser and Cie: The Russian Patek?



Switzerland, France, Germany and Japan are considered to be the quartet of watchmaking, so much so that watches made in any other country are often considered to be of sub-standard quality by horology enthusiasts, much like how some cigar aficionados scoff at any brand that isn't grown, rolled and packaged in Cuba (obligatory photo of Che Guevara wearing a Rolex watch while smoking a Cuban cigar included).



This phenomenon among watch purists isn't all that hard to comprehend however, given that all of these four countries have a long and storied history when it comes to watch manufacturing and manufacturing in general. So how come Russia, a country historically well-known for its many artisans and it's own long and storied history with luxury goods manufacturing (primarily through the works of Gustav Faberge), very rarely comes up in discussions among luxury horology enthusiasts (apart from the occasional reference to Konstantin Chaykin)?

Up until the Russian revolution in 1917, Breguet, a French watch manufacturer, was considered to be the premiere timepiece supplier to some of the most powerful people in Russia and of course, the Russian Imperial court. In fact, Russia was Breguet's main foreign market leading up to the collapse of the Russian monarchy.



But what if I told you Breguet did in fact have competition, that there was another luxury watchmaker in the Russian aristocratic scene? Russian competition. Competition that was older than both Audemars Piguet and Patek Philippe and with a comparable horological prowess to boot?

That brand was H. Moser and Cie. Doesn't ring a bell? Well I'll get to that later.

In 1828, Swiss-born H. Moser moved to Russia and started his own watch brand, which was responsible for supplying watches to politicians, royalty and just about anyone who could afford them. In fact, H. Moser was also responsible for supplying movements to Faberge and even warranted a mention in one of Dostoevsky's works - attaining a status comparable to that of Patek today.



In 1874 Moser died, and his wife, who knew nothing about watchmaking and business apparently, sought the help of a businessman who put a person named Octave Meylan in charge. And while things were all good and dandy for a while, in 1917, the Russian revolution took place and decimated H. Moser and Cie as well as just about every other purveyor of 'bourgeois' excess and luxury, wiping out any trace of Russia's history as a horology powerhouse (photo of mass-produced Soviet-era watch included).



In 2002, the great-grandson of Moser decided to re-establish the company, and in the process of doing so, sought out the help of Audemar Piguet's CEO, who at that time, was responsible for propelling the brand's meteoric growth primarily by introducing what is arguably the brand's best-selling watch of all time: the Royal Oak Offshore. That man's name was Georges-Henri Meylan, and yes, Octave Meylan was his grandfather.



Now you might be wondering: how exactly does this make Moser and Cie, at least the modern iteration of the company, in any way comparable to Patek Philippe? Because of this:



This small round wire in the photo is called a balance spring. Again, so what?

Moser and Cie is as in-house as in-house gets. Everything inside of a H. Moser and Cie watch is produced in-house, even the balance spring - which is something just about every other major luxury watch brand has to source from third party companies, of which there are very few, primarily because it is so difficult to make them. One of those companies is a subsidiary of H. Moser and Cie - which is how they get away with making only 1,500 watches a year and selling each for little more than the cost of a steel Rolex Daytona whilst still earning a profit.

So if everything is made "in-house" why does the dial of the watch you posted say swiss made?

[jaimeruiz99]

So if everything is made "in-house" why does the dial of the watch you posted say swiss made?

H. Moser and Cie in its current form is now Swiss-run and Swiss-produced. From a historical perspective, it was originally a Russian company with a heritage and provenance that was based in Russia and built around the Russian aristocracy - which is something no other existing luxury watch brand can claim on account of how most of them were wiped out during the October revolution.

[Nocturnal310]

picked up this.

ball watches going so cheap?

[jaimeruiz99]

This is the Rothschild Faberge egg.

The price achieved by the egg set three auction records: the most expensive timepiece, Russian object, and Fabergé object ever sold at auction. It sold for 9.8 million euros.

Who created the movement? H. Moser and Cie.

[dbluevette]

H. Moser and Cie in its current form is now Swiss-run and Swiss-produced. From a historical perspective, it was originally a Russian company with a heritage and provenance that was based in Russia and built around the Russian aristocracy - which is something no other existing luxury watch brand can claim on account of how most of them were wiped out during the October revolution.

Oh ok got ya. Cool piece of history man.

[jaimeruiz99]

Oh ok got ya. Cool piece of history man.

Thank you. My next write-up will be on the brief history of Arnold's watch collection. Stay tuned.

[EnforcerOTF]

Thank you. My next write-up will be on the brief history of Arnold's watch collection. Stay tuned.

dont forget to mention how he treats them

[MetroBrah]

^lmao Arnie doesn't give a single fuark. Treats his watch collection like a jar of pennies

[BigRangs]

Thank you. My next write-up will be on the brief history of Arnold's watch collection. Stay tuned.

[img]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-6RHYMSfCXOoARYOZyFROKZgUS0If1nhoo05HIUac1UVtCvupiE XMmK8[/mg]

dont forget to mention how he treats them

[img]https://www.theweek.in/content/dam/week/webworld/feature/society/image/48InsideArnoldSchwarzenegge.jpg.image.975.568.jpg[/mg]

Thought you were referring to Arnold & Son. Then I see these two pictures lmao.

[wailshark]

Gents I am having some trouble deciding between the Explorer I and Explorer II (white or black are both on the table).

Any thoughts?

Regardless of the choice, will be buying from an AD due to a good connection.

[MetroBrah]

Gents I am having some trouble deciding between the Explorer I and Explorer II (white or black are both on the table).

Any thoughts?

Regardless of the choice, will be buying from an AD due to a good connection.

Very different watches that are named sequentially for reasons unbeknownst to me (rolex historians can shed some light). I've always been most fond of the Explorer I because I am very minimalist at heart. It is the watch that could be your one watch forever. It somehow works with every outfit and all occasions. All it takes a strap change at most.

I wouldn't kick the Explorer II out of bed either, but it will never be my first choice.

[BigRangs]

Gents I am having some trouble deciding between the Explorer I and Explorer II (white or black are both on the table).

Any thoughts?

Regardless of the choice, will be buying from an AD due to a good connection.

I'll echo the sentiment of metrobrah above.

Depends on your collection. I personally like a date feature because i use it a lot.

Have you tried both on? I think that would answer your question pretty easily. Can't go wrong either way.

[jaimeruiz99]

What's the deal with Richard Mille?



No other watch brand on this planet screams disposal income to the same extent as Richard Mille. It is quite literally the brand of sultans, sheiks and royals, having supplanted the likes of Patek Philippe and Rolex as the quintessential symbol of decadence and luxury - all of this, in less than two decades, or since the company's foundation in 2001.

But to truly understand the rise of Richard Mille, one has to look not at the eponymous watch designer, but at another well-known figure of horology: Franck Muller.



The photo above is that of a Franck Muller Vanguard. Looks familiar doesn't it?

To put it quite simply, most luxury watches before the quartz crisis of the 70s had a uniform design, shape and essence, almost to the point of redundancy. To get what I mean, look at these two photos below. One is a PP Calatrava and the other is a VC Patrimony.





How many of you would be able to tell these two watches apart from ten feet away? It was this flaw, this neglect for one of the core essences of the luxury market, this being, the ability to stand out and make a statement, that allowed watch designers like Franck Muller and eventually Richard Mille who was inspired by the likes of Muller, to thrive in the luxury watch market, pulling watches away from their status as practical tools towards their current status as aspirational, highly-exclusive luxuries.

Quite oddly enough, the eponymous Richard Mille, is not a watchmaker. It has to be stated, that this man, more than anything, is a manager and marketing executive akin to Thomas Edison - more CEO than inventor. Mille realized that he needed his own Tesla to complement his vision of creating a high-performance, statement-making luxury watch, and he found this in Giulio Papi, director of research and development at Audemars Piguet.

Together with Papi, Mille created a watch that among other things, paid homage to his love for F1 Racing, and the decade he spent working with Matra, a French aeronautics, automobile, and weaponry manufacturer, with the express objective of breaking the traditional codes related to high-end watches, often associated to a baroque style and precious materials like gold and platinum - and he succeeded. In 2001, this watch, the RM 001, was released:



Now to get to the question that everybody wants answered: why are they so damned expensive? To put it quite simply, one should look at RM watches not through the eyes of a jewelry maker, but through those of a rocket scientist. Each RM watch is the product of millions of dollars worth of research and development, where each part, down to the very screws that keep the case in place, has to be designed, produced, checked for quality, assembled and tested to the same degree that one might expect from the production process normally associated with the likes of building a rocket ship.

All of the processes and materials utilized in the creation of a RM watch carry with them the hallmarks of bleeding-edge technology, even in the industries outside of watchmaking. For example, not only is the metal or material utilized in making RM cases new in terms of composition, the ability to use them in watchmaking is completely unknown outside of the R&D labs of Audemars Piguet. Mille dedicates years - and invested millions of dollars - to understanding these materials and how to incorporate them into his watches. This my friends, to put it quite simply, goes past the term 'in-house'. It is in-house on steroids.

Long story short: Richard Mille might be considered the antithesis to Patek, more about innovation and technology than history and tradition, and that the only way one can make a profit producing so few of these watches while spending so much in the process of creating them is by putting a huge premium when it comes to their cost.

Unfortunately, the brand has drawn a lot of criticism related to certain aspects of its design, one of them being in particular, its disregard for the role of watches as practical and reliable tools. In 2018, tennis star and Richard Mille brand ambassador Rafael Nadal was fined 15,000 pounds after being timed out on court during his match with Mikhail Kukushkin, blaming his tardiness on the absence of tennis court clocks and calling on Wimbledon to install them - all while wearing his very own RM watch, which is not a very good advert or stunning endorsement for the reliability of RM, to say the least .

And now you boys know why Federer is the GOAT (special shoutout to EnforcerOTF, his watch in the photo below should be familiar to you) :

[jaimeruiz99]

If any of you have any specific questions about watches in the same vein as the questions I've posted ITT, such as why do people hate Panerai, what's the deal with Richard Mille etc., feel free to ask.

Although to be honest, I am extremely tempted to write my next article on why people despise Invicta watches so much.

[BigRangs]

What's the deal with Richard Mille?

Thanks man, enjoyed that one. On spread.

[wailshark]

If any of you have any specific questions about watches in the same vein as the questions I've posted ITT, such as why do people hate Panerai, what's the deal with Richard Mille etc., feel free to ask.

Although to be honest, I am extremely tempted to write my next article on why people despise Invicta watches so much.

You should start posting these somewhere other than this thread (srs)

A simple blog template would be easy- I am sure there are others who'd love to read this sort of thing

[EnforcerOTF]

What's the deal with Richard Mille?

Great read,thanks for taking the time to do that.

[LinuxJon]

[ToPHeR35]

What's the deal with Richard Mille?



No other watch brand on this planet screams disposal income to the same extent as Richard Mille. It is quite literally the brand of sultans, sheiks and royals, having supplanted the likes of Patek Philippe and Rolex as the quintessential symbol of decadence and luxury - all of this, in less than two decades, or since the company's foundation in 2001.

But to truly understand the rise of Richard Mille, one has to look not at the eponymous watch designer, but at another well-known figure of horology: Franck Muller.



The photo above is that of a Franck Muller Vanguard. Looks familiar doesn't it?

To put it quite simply, most luxury watches before the quartz crisis of the 70s had a uniform design, shape and essence, almost to the point of redundancy. To get what I mean, look at these two photos below. One is a PP Calatrava and the other is a VC Patrimony.





How many of you would be able to tell these two watches apart from ten feet away? It was this flaw, this neglect for one of the core essences of the luxury market, this being, the ability to stand out and make a statement, that allowed watch designers like Franck Muller and eventually Richard Mille who was inspired by the likes of Muller, to thrive in the luxury watch market, pulling watches away from their status as practical tools towards their current status as aspirational, highly-exclusive luxuries.

Quite oddly enough, the eponymous Richard Mille, is not a watchmaker. It has to be stated, that this man, more than anything, is a manager and marketing executive akin to Thomas Edison - more CEO than inventor. Mille realized that he needed his own Tesla to complement his vision of creating a high-performance, statement-making luxury watch, and he found this in Giulio Papi, director of research and development at Audemars Piguet.

Together with Papi, Mille created a watch that among other things, paid homage to his love for F1 Racing, and the decade he spent working with Matra, a French aeronautics, automobile, and weaponry manufacturer, with the express objective of breaking the traditional codes related to high-end watches, often associated to a baroque style and precious materials like gold and platinum - and he succeeded. In 2001, this watch, the RM 001, was released:



Now to get to the question that everybody wants answered: why are they so damned expensive? To put it quite simply, one should look at RM watches not through the eyes of a jewelry maker, but through those of a rocket scientist. Each RM watch is the product of millions of dollars worth of research and development, where each part, down to the very screws that keep the case in place, has to be designed, produced, checked for quality, assembled and tested to the same degree that one might expect from the production process normally associated with the likes of building a rocket ship.

All of the processes and materials utilized in the creation of a RM watch carry with them the hallmarks of bleeding-edge technology, even in the industries outside of watchmaking. For example, not only is the metal or material utilized in making RM cases new in terms of composition, the ability to use them in watchmaking is completely unknown outside of the R&D labs of Audemars Piguet. Mille dedicates years - and invested millions of dollars - to understanding these materials and how to incorporate them into his watches. This my friends, to put it quite simply, goes past the term 'in-house'. It is in-house on steroids.

Long story short: Richard Mille might be considered the antithesis to Patek, more about innovation and technology than history and tradition, and that the only way one can make a profit producing so few of these watches while spending so much in the process of creating them is by putting a huge premium when it comes to their cost.

Unfortunately, the brand has drawn a lot of criticism related to certain aspects of its design, one of them being in particular, its disregard for the role of watches as practical and reliable tools. In 2018, tennis star and Richard Mille brand ambassador Rafael Nadal was fined 15,000 pounds after being timed out on court during his match with Mikhail Kukushkin, blaming his tardiness on the absence of tennis court clocks and calling on Wimbledon to install them - all while wearing his very own RM watch, which is not a very good advert or stunning endorsement for the reliability of RM, to say the least .

And now you boys know why Federer is the GOAT (special shoutout to EnforcerOTF, his watch in the photo below should be familiar to you) :

Love my Rose Gold Franck Muller Conquistador King

[ROARlions]

That feel when you hit your watch on something and slowly turn to assess the damage

[LinuxJon]

[pep_meister]

dope! ive been wanting that one.

[ROARlions]

My first watch I’ve ever purchased. Bought it in late June and have worn it every day. In love with it and have been engrossed in all things horological. Recommend watching The Urban Gentry on YouTube

[weightsb4dates]

Any one interested in an Omega 2531.80, It was last serviced at the end of 2015, it keeps great time, but it is a user, I will PM pics if interested. We can work out a price, I have a pretty good idea of what its worth in its current condition. Has paperwork, warranty card, and service record, but no box. I originally purchased it from Exelonman on WUS (very well regarded Omega collector/seller). PM if interested