100 g protein at once !!

[Canadiantuxedo]

Lots of information here. It's starting to look like to me it's more important to just hit your daily protein goal with some consistency in frequency.

[alan aragon]

Lots of information here. It's starting to look like to me it's more important to just hit your daily protein goal with some consistency in frequency.

Based on the data I've seen, a minimum of 3 protein-rich meals per day should be enough to maximize retention in hypocaloric conditions, whereas pushing anabolism to its maximal rate might require a minimum of 4 protein-rich meals.

[Mrpb]

You'll have to weigh the short-term research against this chronic one: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/303/8/E973.long

Interesting but sedentary obese / no resistance exercise... Don't you have a more interesting soon to be published study that you could spill some details on?

Nothing is black/white in this area - there is still plenty of gray. However, I'd encourage you to read this, IMO it's one of the best reviews on the topic & provides a relatively comprehensive picture: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3595342/

I haven't given it a full read yet but the way they used the Bouillanne study came off as a bit misleading.

PS - in no way am I saying that the OP's scenario is optimal, I'm just cautioning against thinking only 20-30 g of his 100 g chicken protein went toward muscle protein balance (think of the time course).

Not optimal was indeed my point. As far as I understand beyond that dosage you're not going to see a significant increase anymore. I left out the word significant earlier, which I shouldn't have.

[MosToorani]

You'll have to weigh the short-term research against this chronic one: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/303/8/E973.long

And also take this meta-analysis of meal frequency into account: http://nutritionreviews.oxfordjourna...ontent/73/2/69

Nothing is black/white in this area - there is still plenty of gray. However, I'd encourage you to read this, IMO it's one of the best reviews on the topic & provides a relatively comprehensive picture: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3595342/

PS - in no way am I saying that the OP's scenario is optimal, I'm just cautioning against thinking only 20-30 g of his 100 g chicken protein went toward muscle protein balance (think of the time course).

Hi Alan,

Huge Fan here! (Feel like a kid in a candy store haha).

I typically fast on rest days and consume the majority of my caloric intake in a couple of a hours at night. This includes roughly 160grams of protein. Is this going to harm me in any way?

Thanks

[Mrpb]

Hi Alan,

Huge Fan here! (Feel like a kid in a candy store haha).

I typically fast on rest days and consume the majority of my caloric intake in a couple of a hours at night. This includes roughly 160grams of protein. Is this going to harm me in any way?

Thanks

Not sure if Alan will have time to respond but he'll probably agree on my answer.

Is it harmful? probably not.

Is it optimal for someone trying to build/retain as much muscle as possible? probably not.

Also see:

Based on the data I've seen, a minimum of 3 protein-rich meals per day should be enough to maximize retention in hypocaloric conditions, whereas pushing anabolism to its maximal rate might require a minimum of 4 protein-rich meals.

[MosToorani]

Not sure if Alan will have time to respond but he'll probably agree on my answer.

Is it harmful? probably not.

Is it optimal for someone trying to build/retain as much muscle as possible? probably not.

Also see:

That's what I thought as well.

The main reason why i'm doing this is because of hunger issues .. I have a huge appetite and it seems to be the only way to curb my hunger especially considering my caloric intake whether at a deficit or a surplus when trying to lose weight or gain is quite low as my TDEE is low.

[Mrpb]

That's what I thought as well.

The main reason why i'm doing this is because of hunger issues .. I have a huge appetite and it seems to be the only way to curb my hunger especially considering my caloric intake whether at a deficit or a surplus when trying to lose weight or gain is quite low as my TDEE is low.

I understand. Less appetite is one thing many report with fasting.

An alternative could be to increase the satiety of your diet. Things that can help are higher protein, more fibrous vegetables and more fiber.

If you'd prefer to stick to fasting you could try having a whey shake somewhere during your fast. Then you go from 1 significant protein feeding to 2, which should be a bit better for your results.

[MosToorani]

I understand. Less appetite is one thing many report with fasting.

An alternative could be to increase the satiety of your diet. Things that can help are higher protein, more fibrous vegetables and more fiber.

If you'd prefer to stick to fasting you could try having a whey shake somewhere during your fast. Then you go from 1 significant protein feeding to 2, which should be a bit better for your results.

oh okay! A whey shake would be a good idea to have in the middle of the day, yes!

thank you, sir!

[SubWooferCooker]

WTF i thought this was a well known myth:/ , ive been eating 2 large meals per day with around 70g of protein in each one. I thought the whole spreading protein into at least 4 meals was a myth.

Fuawk, Feels like ive been wasting the last 6 months bulking not making optimal gains now.

[Mrpb]

WTF i thought this was a well known myth:/ , ive been eating 2 large meals per day with around 70g of protein in each one. I thought the whole spreading protein into at least 4 meals was a myth.

Fuawk, Feels like ive been wasting the last 6 months bulking not making optimal gains now.

You're probably overestimating the importance of these strategies. Especially if you're a beginner or novice it's unlikely you missed out on significant gains.

[timpapa]

TAnother interesting study: 3 meals with ~30 gram protein (EVEN) compared to breakfast with 10 gram, lunch with 16 gram and dinner with 64 gram protein (SKEW).
"The 24-h mixed muscle protein fractional synthesis rate was 25% higher in the EVEN (0.075 ± 0.006%/h) vs. the SKEW (0.056 ± 0.006%/h) protein distribution groups (P = 0.003)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018950/

From this study:

"The question remains whether 24-h net muscle protein anabolism could be improved by adding even more protein to either group. Recent commentary suggests that larger protein meals (≥30 g protein/meal) may provide a greater net anabolic effect by maximally stimulating muscle protein synthesis while progressively inhibiting protein breakdown (11). [...] the theory that larger protein meals provide a greater net anabolic effect is applicable and perhaps beneficial in situations in which an individual’s meal plan and total energy requirements can accommodate additional protein."

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co.../1/91/abstract

Poor analytical methods.

In other words, as many have pointed out, stop spewing misleading and selective science.

[Mrpb]

From this study:

"The question remains whether 24-h net muscle protein anabolism could be improved by adding even more protein to either group. Recent commentary suggests that larger protein meals (≥30 g protein/meal) may provide a greater net anabolic effect by maximally stimulating muscle protein synthesis while progressively inhibiting protein breakdown (11). [...] the theory that larger protein meals provide a greater net anabolic effect is applicable and perhaps beneficial in situations in which an individual’s meal plan and total energy requirements can accommodate additional protein."

Sure. The studies also show that 40 gram protein from whey was about 7 to 10% more effective than 20 gram whey in stimulating MPS. Taking into account the effects on protein breakdown and the fact that mixed meals are digested slower and thus need more leucine to reach the leucine threshold, there's a good case to be made to have more protein in one meal.

What you and some others seem to overlook though is that the OP weighs 127 pounds. By having 100 gram protein in one meal he had his daily recommended protein in one meal. If you think that's smart or optimal we'll have to agree to disagree.

In other words, as many have pointed out, stop spewing misleading and selective science.

Hehe ... yeah you and Nigeltheoutlaw.

I'm still curious: Were you using a fake avi or is this a second account for trolling purposes?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1289870241

[timpapa]

there's a good case to be made to have more protein in one meal.

So you agree your conclusions were misleading, or incomplete.

What you and some others seem to overlook though is that the OP weighs 127 pounds. By having 100 gram protein in one meal he had his daily recommended protein in one meal. If you think that's smart or optimal we'll have to agree to disagree.

You have been saying the same crap in more than one thread, to more than one OP. And have been posting links to studies that have little to do with the weight/body composition of the OP.

Hehe ... yeah you and Nigeltheoutlaw.

And Alan Aragon. Who basically told you to calm down.

is this a second account for trolling purposes?

Which second account? Not sure I'm following. Misleading science irritates me, as do people who think they are qualified to provide advice when all they do is Google PubMed. Do you have a PhD in molecular biology or biochemistry? Have you carried out any of these studies? Or are you just an "Internet pseudo-scientist" and casual reader of scientific literature?

[Mrpb]

So you agree your conclusions were misleading, or incomplete.

Different magnitudes. More than 20-30 gram can be sensible while 100 gram in one meal for a 126 pound guy is not so sensible.

And Alan Aragon. Who basically told you to calm down.

As you may have noted Alan and Stuart Phillips don't completely agree on this subject. They have been debating this subject extensively on ******** and on this forum.

Personally I lean a bit more towards the interpretation of Stu, in that by consuming more than ~30-40 grams protein you're mostly fuelling a lot of other processes but not doing anything significant anymore for muscle protein synthesis.

And Alan also confirmed that what the OP is doing is probably not optimal (which was my point) and spreading your daily recommended protein over 4 meals is likely a better strategy to maximise hypertrophy.

PS. I'm not nor have I claimed to be a scientist with relevant background. I have some scientific schooling in a different area (business & marketing).

Which second account? Not sure I'm following.

In a thread where you were 'bragging' about your physique (see link) you posted an avi that belonged to another account.

I see two possible explanations: you were using a fake avi or a second account.



Source: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1289870241

[timpapa]

Personally I lean a bit more towards the interpretation of Stu [...]

PS. I'm not nor have I claimed to be a scientist with relevant background. I have some scientific schooling in a different area (business & marketing).

"Leaning more" is pure opinion. Agreeing with the fact that this is a grey area is exactly my point: because there is such disparaging evidence supporting multiple approaches, it is unreasonable that you seem to be giving the kind of advice related to MPS that you are giving as though your claims have been clinically verified and extensively peer-reviewed.

At the end of the day, you offer nothing more than a not-entirely qualified one-sided opinion based on other people's interpretation of scientific data.

[Mrpb]

At the end of the day, you offer nothing more than a not-entirely qualified one-sided opinion based on other people's interpretation of scientific data.

That and my own look on the scientific data. How is what you're doing any different?

[rhadam]

WTF i thought this was a well known myth:/ , ive been eating 2 large meals per day with around 70g of protein in each one. I thought the whole spreading protein into at least 4 meals was a myth.

Fuawk, Feels like ive been wasting the last 6 months bulking not making optimal gains now.

There is a gap between interpreting data and applying it to the real world. Most likely you would have seen no composition change had you switched to 3-4 meals instead of 2.

[timpapa]

That and my own look on the scientific data. How is what you're doing any different?

I did not provide any advice about protein consumption in this thread.

I just cautioned against selective extrapolation of scientific studies, and highlighted the worrying practice of drawing subjective conclusions which are given out as nutritional advice when one is not qualified to do so.

[Mrpb]

I did not provide any advice about protein consumption in this thread.

Not in so many words, but by taking the contrary position in the debate, it's clear what your interpretation is.

Which is fine by me by the way, that's what happens on these forums. If we would only let the fully qualified people give advice or their interpretations of the available data it would get very quiet here.

[timpapa]

Not in so many words, but by taking the contrary position in the debate, it's clear what your interpretation is.

Again, don't extrapolate my statements to favor your argument. I was only contrarian to you and said that you were wrong, not that the opposite is right. There's a difference.

Which is fine by me by the way, that's what happens on these forums. If we would only let the fully qualified people give advice or their interpretations of the available data it would get very quiet here.

I still believe giving no advice is better than giving bad advice. Or at least, next time, start with "this is just my opinion."

[rhadam]

I did not provide any advice about protein consumption in this thread.

I just cautioned against selective extrapolation of scientific studies, and highlighted the worrying practice of drawing subjective conclusions which are given out as nutritional advice when one is not qualified to do so.

I've been in school with dietitians that i'd never let counsel me or anyone else. "Qualification" is a tricky word. Just as tricky as interpretation.

[timpapa]

I've been in school with dietitians that i'd never let counsel me or anyone else. "Qualification" is a tricky word. Just as tricky as interpretation.

Sure, agreed - having a science degree does not make one a good scientist. Just like not every published, peer-reviewed paper is a good source of scientific data. There's a lot of weak published science out there. People need to remember this.

[Mrpb]

Again, don't extrapolate my statements to favor your argument. I was only contrarian to you and said that you were wrong, not that the opposite is right. There's a difference.

Actually your posts do indicate that according to you Alan is the one who is right in the debate.

What is your background? What makes you qualified to dismiss someone else's interpretation?

[Mrpb]

I suspected this before but then I didn't have access to the full study of Bouillanne 2012. It's the study that Deutze and Wolfe use as support of their advice.

CONCLUSION AND IMPLICATIONS
[...]
This perspective is supported by a recent publication in this journal (22) in which consumption of 80% of the 1.5 gram protein/kg BW/day in a single meal was more anabolic than spreading the same amount of protein intake throughout the day. If the limit to the maximal anabolic response of 30 gram/meal, the approach of providing most protein in one meal would have been unsuccessful in achieving the optimal anabolic response. The practical implication of this conclusion is that protein nutrition can be improved by increasing the protein intake at breakfast and lunch and maintaining a high amount of protein intake with dinner, or increasing the amount of protein eaten with dinner if that is more convenient. Alternatively, replacing low quality proteins with high quality proteins, containing higher levels of a balanced essential amino acid mixture, will additionally stimulate protein anabolism.

The participants in the study that received their protein spread over the day had an average age of 85.7 years. Their average weight was 54.8 kg. Going by the available research, at age ~70 approximately 0.5 gram protein per kg per meal is necessary to stimulate MPS. At age 85 this dosage should be higher. In the case of the SPREAD group that would have meant probably at least ~30 gram protein per meal. The highest amount of protein they received during the study was only 21 gram per meal. And a considerable amount of that 21 gram was milk protein, which isn't the highest on leucine.

It should come as no surprise that 4 meals with insufficient protein did worse than feeding them 1 meal with sufficient protein. Why the authors do not mention these very important details I don't know.

Their suggestion to increase the amount of protein at dinner instead of spreading it over all meals is questionable advice in my opinion.

Personally I would much rather go with Alan's advice.

Based on the data I've seen, a minimum of 3 protein-rich meals per day should be enough to maximize retention in hypocaloric conditions, whereas pushing anabolism to its maximal rate might require a minimum of 4 protein-rich meals.

[boo99]

^^ That's interesting mrpb.

Would be interesting to see how those elderly would do with sufficient protein higher than 21g and from a higher leucine source in the spread out meals.

I'd also go with Alan's advice here as well.

[psalms1441]

so if i weigh 230lbs, i need about 230g a day. at 30g/ meal thats 7.6 meals a day?

[ZMan45]

so if i weigh 230lbs, i need about 230g a day. at 30g/ meal thats 7.6 meals a day?

Or you could just have at least 30g per meal and not have so many meals.

[psalms1441]

Or you could just have at least 30g per meal and not have so many meals.

so 4 meals a day with 57.5g per meal?

[sevenhm]

so 4 meals a day with 57.5g per meal?

I think you're missing the point.

Based on the data I've seen, a minimum of 3 protein-rich meals per day should be enough to maximize retention in hypocaloric conditions, whereas pushing anabolism to its maximal rate might require a minimum of 4 protein-rich meals.

Read the bold

[psalms1441]

I think you're missing the point.



Read the bold

na im not missing the point, just asking questions