Basic question about training to failure and strength progression

[Miller308]

I've been training for 2 years now, but training the right way for about half that time. I've seen some decent strength and size gains but I never truly took the time to understood the different means of progression. I've stuck to programs like P/P/L, PHAT, WS4SB, etc. and have simply added a couple pounds on the bar for my heavy compounds from week to week. For example, my rep range for squatting would be 3-5, for which I'd work up to my 3 rep max over the course of a couple warm up and working sets. The week after, I'd try to hit my 3 rep max with 10 more pounds than the week prior. Does this seem like a sound means of progression? Here is what a typical squatting session for me would entail:

Stretching

Warmup sets:
Bar x 12 (warmup)
135x5 (warmup)

Working sets:
225x3 (not to failure)
245x3 (not to failure)
265x3 (almost to failure)
275x3 (failure)

I know that some are skeptical about training to failure which is why I'm asking what you guys think. Thanks in advance.

[Drycht86]

I haven't been lifting for too long but that's pretty much what I do. From what I've researched you need to keep adding weight every time if you can and if not add a rep per week. I'm also on a cut My squats look a little something like this:

215x5 (hard)
225x5 (really hard)
235x4 (chance of failure on 4th)
245x3 (will fail on 3rd more than likely)
255x1-2 (failure)

I'm pretty much done the exercise on the 4th set. I really just do the 5th set to push myself to the absolute max so hopefully next week I can start the 215 to 225.

[SuffolkPunch]

Failure is not required to make progress with the high weight low rep stuff. I would go so far as to say it's counterproductive because of the cost in terms of fatigue. Look at typical strength oriented routines - they are generally geared towards avoiding it MOST of the time.

Training to fatigues is probably of more value with the higher rep accessory stuff.

[MyEgoProblem]

I would be tempted to say that actually hitting failure (either form breakdown or actual hard failure) isnt so good for strength or PL purposes.

From reputable sources, you can end up reinforcing the sticking points in big grinders and burning in inefficient/sloppy motor patterns effectively limiting your progression..

Practice quality reps, not sloppy reps. gives you better motor patterns and better lifts.
obviously we are all gonna overestimate out max for a day on occasion... so, force that last one out, just dont make it a staple of your program!

for me,ideally, its always one in the tank!

now for BB'ing, man, we all seen them big guys with the sloppy a55 form :P so....


*sources,jeremy hamiliton (3rd highest raw total ever over 2000lbs @ 220) so take that for what its worth :P

[Miller308]

I would be tempted to say that actually hitting failure (either form breakdown or actual hard failure) isnt so good for strength or PL purposes.

From reputable sources, you can end up reinforcing the sticking points in big grinders and burning in inefficient/sloppy motor patterns effectively limiting your progression..

Practice quality reps, not sloppy reps. gives you better motor patterns and better lifts.

now for BB'ing, man, we all seen them big guys with the sloppy a55 form :P so....


*sources,jeremy hamiliton (3rd highest raw total ever over 2000lbs @ 220) so take that for what its worth :P

Sounds like you've been watching omarisuf I understand what you're saying though. What percentage of my 1RM should I train at then (if I'm trying to hit a solid 3-5 reps)? What about using sets with the same weight and trying to hit the 5 reps on each set with that weight before adding more?

[MyEgoProblem]

Sounds like you've been watching omarisuf

damn, rumbled :P indeed..

[Turtora]

It's incredibly counterproductive to go to failure. If you're hitting failure, something's wrong. You're peaking too early. You're grinding too early. Strength is not about being an instagram hero or gym hero, it's about putting the most weight up on the platform on a specific date. Bringing the strongest body you can to the table.

If you're training to failure every day then you're likely undermining your confidence. This is going to play a huge role in how you handle heavier weights. My suggestion would be to get on a program that regulates volume and intensity via %s so that you're not training like a dirty hippy every day I think autoregulation is fine, but I don't think you're going about it in a productive manner.

I could give you some pro bono coaching week to week if you wanna give this routine a shot: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=167304971

Or you could look into this autoregulation based program: http://forum.reactivetrainingsystems...ediate-Program

[Miller308]

It's incredibly counterproductive to go to failure. If you're hitting failure, something's wrong. You're peaking too early. You're grinding too early. Strength is not about being an instagram hero or gym hero, it's about putting the most weight up on the platform on a specific date. Bringing the strongest body you can to the table.

If you're training to failure every day then you're likely undermining your confidence. This is going to play a huge role in how you handle heavier weights. My suggestion would be to get on a program that regulates volume and intensity via %s so that you're not training like a dirty hippy every day I think autoregulation is fine, but I don't think you're going about it in a productive manner.

I could give you some pro bono coaching week to week if you wanna give this routine a shot: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=167304971

Or you could look into this autoregulation based program: http://forum.reactivetrainingsystems...ediate-Program

Looks interesting, i'd be willing to try it. I'm bulking at the moment as well. I'm currently running a 6-day P/P/L + PHAT hybrid but something tells me that I should've done periodization training like the Texas Method.

[Turtora]

Looks interesting, i'd be willing to try it. I'm bulking at the moment as well. I'm currently running a 6-day P/P/L + PHAT hybrid but something tells me that I should've done periodization training like the Texas Method.

Texas Method is another fantastic option if you'd like to go that route.

But yeah, I'm always looking for more test subjects.

[Miller308]

Texas Method is another fantastic option if you'd like to go that route.

But yeah, I'm always looking for more test subjects.

I'll definitely let you know. But just to clarify, how do I know if I'm training adequately if I'm not pushing myself beyond my limits? If I could hit 3 reps with 275 (failure) on my last set, what weight should I train with that wouldn't fatigue me completely but would also allow me to gain strength?

[Turtora]

I'll definitely let you know. But just to clarify, how do I know if I'm training adequately if I'm not pushing myself beyond my limits? If I could hit 3 reps with 275 (failure) on my last set, what weight should I train with that wouldn't fatigue me completely but would also allow me to gain strength?

You'll know at the end of your training cycle when you compete or test and put up more/less than your previous total (assuming you opt to test)

If you're grinding reps to failure during your training cycle on a regular basis, that's a good sign you're blowing your load too early (for lack of a better phrase)

Edit --- Put a tad more eloquently, you have to take into consideration fatigue and fatigue management. Fatigue (wear & tear, damage, cns overload, stress, etc) plays a huge role in how you will perform on any given day. If these aren't managed properly over the course of a cycle, you can end up stalling pretty hard and pretty fast. Your body reduces different hormones going through volume phases and intensity phases. Spend too long in one phase and you might actually backtrack. That's why even in high volume programs like Smolov, the reps/sets/intensity/etc is clumped into different phases. That's why you deload every now and then. That's why you don't train to failure on a regular basis.

Sets in the 1-3 rep range at high intensity tend to cause stress on the body that's very difficult to recover from. This is why the peaking phase in a PL program is generally very short and only consists of 2-3 weeks of decreased volume and increased intensity. This is sometimes called a "Realization" phase, where you reap what you've sown over the past training cycle. If all you've had is fatigue, it's going to be hard to get much else :P

[snrygo]

I'll definitely let you know. But just to clarify, how do I know if I'm training adequately if I'm not pushing myself beyond my limits? If I could hit 3 reps with 275 (failure) on my last set, what weight should I train with that wouldn't fatigue me completely but would also allow me to gain strength?

progress can be measured in many more ways than just adding weight to the bar.

- how easy a given weight feels for x reps
-how fast it moves
-how many reps you can get with a given weight
-how much volume you can do (total weight)

In response to your question, it really depends where you are in a training cycle, as well as a few other things, but consider doing something along the lines of 255-265 for multiple sets of 3 instead of a set of 275x3 (failure)

[Miller308]

You'll know at the end of your training cycle when you compete or test and put up more/less than your previous total (assuming you opt to test)

If you're grinding reps to failure during your training cycle on a regular basis, that's a good sign you're blowing your load too early (for lack of a better phrase)

So I shouldn't attempt to hit PR's during a normal training session? I should just test my 1RM to see if it gets higher on a separate day?

[Miller308]

progress can be measured in many more ways than just adding weight to the bar.

- how easy a given weight feels for x reps
-how fast it moves
-how many reps you can get with a given weight
-how much volume you can do (total weight)

In response to your question, it really depends where you are in a training cycle, as well as a few other things, but consider doing something along the lines of 255-265 for multiple sets of 3 instead of a set of 275x3 (failure)

Okay, I see. Thank you for clearing up the misconceptions

[Turtora]

So I shouldn't attempt to hit PR's during a normal training session? I should just test my 1RM to see if it gets higher on a separate day?

Not necessarily. I edited my post to elaborate a little bit more.

Snrygo also posted some good information.

Training pr's are great and can let you know you're on the right track, but they shouldn't be the primary focus if your goal is long term strength.

Another edit -- Here's a great article by CWS on this topic: http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/...g-not-testing/

[Miller308]

You'll know at the end of your training cycle when you compete or test and put up more/less than your previous total (assuming you opt to test)

If you're grinding reps to failure during your training cycle on a regular basis, that's a good sign you're blowing your load too early (for lack of a better phrase)

Edit --- Put a tad more eloquently, you have to take into consideration fatigue and fatigue management. Fatigue (wear & tear, damage, cns overload, stress, etc) plays a huge role in how you will perform on any given day. If these aren't managed properly over the course of a cycle, you can end up stalling pretty hard and pretty fast. Your body reduces different hormones going through volume phases and intensity phases. Spend too long in one phase and you might actually backtrack. That's why even in high volume programs like Smolov, the reps/sets/intensity/etc is clumped into different phases. That's why you deload every now and then. That's why you don't train to failure on a regular basis.

Sets in the 1-3 rep range at high intensity tend to cause stress on the body that's very difficult to recover from. This is why the peaking phase in a PL program is generally very short and only consists of 2-3 weeks of decreased volume and increased intensity. This is sometimes called a "Realization" phase, where you reap what you've sown over the past training cycle. If all you've had is fatigue, it's going to be hard to get much else :P

Very informative. The program that I'm on doesn't even use phases... and to be honest, every program that I've followed hasn't. I suppose it's about time that I should run a different program, huh? Possibly Texas Method?

[Miller308]

This is what I was following... Overkill? Maybe more advanced than I need?

Push Power:

Barbell Bench Press - 3-5 reps x 5 sets
DB Military Press - 6-10 reps x 4 sets
Weighted Dips - 6-10 reps x 4 sets
Skullcrushers 6-10 reps x 4 sets

Pull Power:

Deadlift (Sumo) - 3-5 reps x 5 sets
Weighted chinups - 5-8 reps x 4 sets
DB Rows - 6-10 reps x 4 sets
BB Curl - 6-10 reps x 4 sets

Legs Power:

Squat - 3-5 reps x 5 sets
Romanian Deadlift - 6-10 reps x 4 sets
Leg Press - 6-10 reps x 4 sets
Leg Curl - 6-10 reps x 4 sets

Rest Day

Push Hypertrophy:

Barbell Bench Press - Speed work - 3 reps x 6 sets with 65-70% of 3-5 rep max
Incline dumbbell press - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Hammer Strength Bench Press - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Low Cable crossover - 10-15 reps x 3 sets
Plate front raise - 10-15 reps x 3 sets
Dumbbell lateral raise - 10-15 reps x 3 sets
Overhead DB Tricep Extension - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Underhand Cable Tricep pushdown - 10-15 reps x 2 sets

Pull Hypertrophy:

Sumo Deadlift - Speed work
Pull-ups - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
T-Bar Row - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Face-pull - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Single-arm cable lat pulldown - 10-15 reps x 2 sets
Static shrugs x 2-3 sets
Preacher curls - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Dumbbell hammer curls - 8-12 reps x 2 sets

Legs Hypertrophy:

Squat - Speed work
Bulgarian Split Squat - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Leg Press - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Leg Extension - 10-15 reps x 2 sets
Stiff Legged Deadlift - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Lying Leg Curls - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Seated Leg Curls - 10-15 reps x 2 sets
Standing calf raises on box - 10-15 reps x 3 sets
Seated calf raises - 10-15 reps x 3 sets

[snrygo]

Very informative. The program that I'm on doesn't even use phases... and to be honest, every program that I've followed hasn't. I suppose it's about time that I should run a different program, huh? Possibly Texas Method?

anything that incorporates some sort of moderate periodization should do. TM/Madcow are both good generalized options

edit: you can definitely toss in a couple BB movements for hypertrophy after your main work on those programs so you can look like you lift.

[Turtora]

Very informative. The program that I'm on doesn't even use phases... and to be honest, every program that I've followed hasn't. I suppose it's about time that I should run a different program, huh? Possibly Texas Method?

Meant to write "produces hormones" not "reduces hormones", but yeah lol.

TM is a great option for long term gains if you're looking to do the same thing over and over again. It can get boring at times, but if you like setting training PRs, it might be right up your alley.

I'd also give a shameless plug for my 7-week training cycle haha.

And omg that is totally overkill lmao.

[Miller308]

Meant to write "produces hormones" not "reduces hormones", but yeah lol.

TM is a great option for long term gains if you're looking to do the same thing over and over again. It can get boring at times, but if you like setting training PRs, it might be right up your alley.

I'd also give a shameless plug for my 7-week training cycle haha.

I'm just a little turned off by TM's lack of accessory work.. but if it's what needs to be done then oh well. There's nothing against your program, I just wanted to try TM for a while now lol

[Miller308]

And omg that is totally overkill lmao.

Damn lol

[Turtora]

I'm just a little turned off by TM's lack of accessory work.. but if it's what needs to be done then oh well. There's nothing against your program, I just wanted to try TM for a while now lol

You can throw in some bodybuilding style movements, just don't overdo it. Pumps are fun (the bicep is a muscle too), but they shouldn't detract from next day's (or even next week's) work. As long as you don't go crazy with floor presses and pause squats you should be fine.

[Miller308]

How's this?:

Monday [High Volume/Moderate Intensity]
Squat 3X5 (90% of 5rm)
Bench Press 3X5
SLDL 3X5 (or Bentover BB Row 3x8)

Optional: incline chest flyes/press 3x8

Wednesday [Low Volume/Low Intensity]
Squat 2X5
Press 3x5
Chin ups 3xAMRAP

Optional: Ab work, rear delts raises

Friday [Low Volume/High Intensity]
Squat 1X5 (build up to 5RM with singles and doubles)
Bench Press 1x5 - build up to 1 set with singles and doubles
Deadlift 1X5 ( try to use a higher weight each week)

Optional: Calves, shrugs

[Turtora]

How's this?:

Monday [High Volume/Moderate Intensity]
Squat 3X5 (90% of 5rm)
Bench Press 3X5
SLDL 3X5 (or Bentover BB Row 3x8)

Optional: incline chest flyes/press 3x8

Wednesday [Low Volume/Low Intensity]
Squat 2X5
Press 3x5
Chin ups 3xAMRAP

Optional: Ab work, rear delts raises

Friday [Low Volume/High Intensity]
Squat 1X5 (build up to 5RM with singles and doubles)
Bench Press 1x5 - build up to 1 set with singles and doubles
Deadlift 1X5 ( try to use a higher weight each week)

Optional: Calves, shrugs

Honestly, I wouldn't even really make it optional for rear delts and abs (provided you're doing stabilization exercises and not going into lumbar flexion).

I don't like chest flies. Incline press would be fine provided intensity is low enough.

You could just copy the Lift.net template if you were really set on running TM.

Ultimately, though, TM is a just that, a method.