Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Routine

[EmperorRyker]

I hit that ratio daily and my carbohydrates are derived from whole milk and white rice.

Alright, I guess if you use fat sources other than whole milk that have a relatively higher percentage of saturated fats (say, coconut oil) then you might hit it if you really try and tailor your diet accordingly. Since it seems like you have to go out of your way quite a bit, though, would you mind posting what you eat on a daily basis to hit that ratio?

[NewAgeMayan]

Alright, I guess if you use fat sources other than whole milk that have a relatively higher percentage of saturated fats (say, coconut oil) then you might hit it if you really try and tailor your diet accordingly. Since it seems like you have to go out of your way quite a bit, though, would you mind posting what you eat on a daily basis to hit that ratio?

Indeed. According to mfpal, Im roughly 50-25-25. I think Id have to re-jig my food sources quite significantly if I were to try and more closely match Kelei's recommendations; unlikely, though, as Id be reluctant to reduce/remove certain staples (such as soy lecithin granules).

[CrayJay]

Alright, I guess if you use fat sources other than whole milk that have a relatively higher percentage of saturated fats (say, coconut oil) then you might hit it if you really try and tailor your diet accordingly. Since it seems like you have to go out of your way quite a bit, though, would you mind posting what you eat on a daily basis to hit that ratio?

I have suffered from an inflammatory disease of the eso****us since childhood, it's known as eosinophilic eso****itis. Basically, certain food allergens result in an inflammatory response resulting in the accumulation of eosinophils on my eso****us. The subsequent ingestion of food results in difficulty swallowing and often times, food becoming impacted which requires either mechanical dilation or regurgitation to resolve. Anyhow, the treatment is either a swallowed corticosteroid or the six food elimination diet. The six foods are milk, egg, wheat, soy, peanuts (and tree nuts) and seafood. The idea is that these are the most common triggers. So after months of this elimination diet I achieved remission without any medications. Now I am starting the reintroduction phase where I add one food back at time to empirically identify what causes this immune response (there is no diagnostic test for this). I added back whey protein for two weeks, no response. I added whole milk back for two weeks, no response. I added back eggs on the first of this month, and so far so good. So right now my diet consists of whole milk, eggs, pork, white rice, frozen veggies and some spinach. My discipline with the diet comes from years of trying to figure out the cause of this disease and as such, preparing my own meals and never eating out. I am very accustomed to strict dietary habits because of this condition and have only recently learned to take full advantage of it.

[EmperorRyker]

I have suffered from an inflammatory disease of the eso****us since childhood, it's known as eosinophilic eso****itis. Basically, certain food allergens result in an inflammatory response resulting in the accumulation of eosinophils on my eso****us. The subsequent ingestion of food results in difficulty swallowing and often times, food becoming impacted which requires either mechanical dilation or regurgitation to resolve. Anyhow, the treatment is either a swallowed corticosteroid or the six food elimination diet. The six foods are milk, egg, wheat, soy, peanuts (and tree nuts) and seafood. The idea is that these are the most common triggers. So after months of this elimination diet I achieved remission without any medications. Now I am starting the reintroduction phase where I add one food back at time to empirically identify what causes this immune response (there is no diagnostic test for this). I added back whey protein for two weeks, no response. I added whole milk back for two weeks, no response. I added back eggs on the first of this month, and so far so good. So right now my diet consists of whole milk, eggs, pork, white rice, frozen veggies and some spinach. My discipline with the diet comes from years of trying to figure out the cause of this disease and as such, preparing my own meals and never eating out. I am very accustomed to strict dietary habits because of this condition and have only recently learned to take full advantage of it.

Damn, sorry to hear about your disease, that sounds like a tough one. I hope you get it sorted out as best you can, or as best you can in terms of being to live with it and not feel deprived.

But since you did state what your diet consists of, I will further ask how it is that 60% of your fat intake is from saturated fats. Namely, the fats in whole milk come close to that number, but those in eggs and pork, as well as other stuff you mentioned, don't. I'm just curious, that's all.

[Kelei]

The exercises listed are my personal selections, you can substitute them and/or add extra exercises if you have the time and work capacity. People often question my flat bench press form because most people are accustomed to a powerlifting style bench press which in my opinion is underwhelming when it comes to developing the pecs.

My chest was always poor before I made the switch to a bodybuilding style bench press form, even though I had to reduce the amount of weight I was lifting by 40% my chest immediately starting exploding with growth.

There are some concerns regarding shoulder health when benching with this form which is why I recommend limiting your ROM if you experience shoulder pain/discomfort, you can set some safety bars just above the height of your chest in order to limit excessive shoulder hyperextension (the primary cause of shoulder pain/discomfort while benching with the elbows flared).

Often small form adjustments can turn otherwise "dangerous" exercises into safe and productive exercises, another common example is the upright row, people like to bash it but if you take a wide grip (which prevents excessive internal rotation) the exercise is actually quite safe and effective for training the side delts.

To the guys worrying about fat intake/ratios, keep polyunsaturated fat limited to no more than 10% of your total fat intake, this is by far more important than the ratio between sat/mono, just make sure 90% of your fat intake comes from sat and mono fats while emphasising sat over mono wherever possible.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

I keep seeing this elbows flared thing, what do you guys mean? Like elbows pointed down to the floor or elbows pointed more to the knees?

[Kelei]

I keep seeing this elbows flared thing, what do you guys mean? Like elbows pointed down to the floor or elbows pointed more to the knees?

Elbows futher away from the body, a 75-90 degree angle between your upper arms and torso (flared) rather than say perhaps a 30-45 degree angle (tucked).

[Yeahbrah333]

What would be your recommendations of weight gain for bulking weight loss for cutting ? If your recommendations for cutting is actually recomping if moderate bf you can leave out that part.




"you can substitute them and/or add extra exercises if you have the time and work capacity" What exercises you would ADD for variety, just asking out of curiosity ?



"straight sets are a perfectly acceptable option as well, at the end of the day it doesn't really mater how long you choose to rest between sets" I understand this how ever if you take something like rear delt flyes and ur sets instead of the classic rest-pausing like 12 3-5 3-5 3-5 the reps in those sets would probably be hard how ever if you do something like 12 and rest not for 3-5 but go by the "feel" (if that is what u mean by personal preference) and end up having something like 12 11 9 9 ( the first repetitions of those sets would probably be like butter) ---> would that be effective too ? And should rest times be consistent or just go by the "go when u are ready each time" and tuning in will happen with experience ?


What should be done if you stall with a weight on a movement ? I am talking about a true stall which is for more than just 1-2 sessions and still is there after a deload perhaps ?




Thanks in advance, routine looks solid

[CrayJay]

Damn, sorry to hear about your disease, that sounds like a tough one. I hope you get it sorted out as best you can, or as best you can in terms of being to live with it and not feel deprived.

But since you did state what your diet consists of, I will further ask how it is that 60% of your fat intake is from saturated fats. Namely, the fats in whole milk come close to that number, but those in eggs and pork, as well as other stuff you mentioned, don't. I'm just curious, that's all.

Exactly, yeah my ratio of saturated to monounsaturated is less than 2:1, but polyunsaturated is quite low. My actual ratio checks in around 5.3:4:1, but like Kelei said, minimizing polyunsaturated fat is paramount. And I have become very accustomed to the dietary limitations, but unlike a lot of people with this disease, it looks like I may only have one or two allergens since milk and egg have not elicited a reaction. My guess is that whey and soy are triggers, but those I can live without. It's milk and egg that were the two that I was really interested to incorporate back into my diet so I am a happy camper.

[Yeahbrah333]

Exactly, yeah my ratio of saturated to monounsaturated is less than 2:1, but polyunsaturated is quite low. My actual ratio checks in around 5.3:4:1, but like Kelei said, minimizing polyunsaturated fat is paramount. And I have become very accustomed to the dietary limitations, but unlike a lot of people with this disease, it looks like I may only have one or two allergens since milk and egg have not elicited a reaction. My guess is that whey and soy are triggers, but those I can live without. It's milk and egg that were the two that I was really interested to incorporate back into my diet so I am a happy camper.

So Kelei's recommendations for fat is mostly saturated, less monounsaturated and very low polyunsaturated ?


In your opinion how fats are the minimum one can get away with ? I don't like the taste of the sources + they take up ones calories pretty fast

[bfoley]

Often small form adjustments can turn otherwise "dangerous" exercises into safe and productive exercises, another common example is the upright row, people like to bash it but if you take a wide grip (which prevents excessive internal rotation) the exercise is actually quite safe and effective for training the side delts.

This is so true. I never liked doing barbell upright rows, always felt a strain in my shoulders. I switched to db upright rows, and I have no pain/strain whatsoever. And, I get a better pump in my entire shoulder area.

--Brian

[Jasonk282]

The exercises listed are my personal selections, you can substitute them and/or add extra exercises if you have the time and work capacity..

I don't understand how this gets missed in pretty much every program, save for novice ones. More so when you literally say these are my personal choices. People act like it's the author writes it then it's set in stone and can never, ever be changed.

[CrayJay]

So Kelei's recommendations for fat is mostly saturated, less monounsaturated and very low polyunsaturated ?


In your opinion how fats are the minimum one can get away with ? I don't like the taste of the sources + they take up ones calories pretty fast

Yeah that sums it up nicely. As far as a practical minimum, I think it's prudent to aim for at least 1 g dietary fat per kg of body weight, or ~.45 g per lb of body weight.

[Kelei]

What would be your recommendations of weight gain for bulking weight loss for cutting ? If your recommendations for cutting is actually recomping if moderate bf you can leave out that part.




"you can substitute them and/or add extra exercises if you have the time and work capacity" What exercises you would ADD for variety, just asking out of curiosity ?



"straight sets are a perfectly acceptable option as well, at the end of the day it doesn't really mater how long you choose to rest between sets" I understand this how ever if you take something like rear delt flyes and ur sets instead of the classic rest-pausing like 12 3-5 3-5 3-5 the reps in those sets would probably be hard how ever if you do something like 12 and rest not for 3-5 but go by the "feel" (if that is what u mean by personal preference) and end up having something like 12 11 9 9 ( the first repetitions of those sets would probably be like butter) ---> would that be effective too ? And should rest times be consistent or just go by the "go when u are ready each time" and tuning in will happen with experience ?


What should be done if you stall with a weight on a movement ? I am talking about a true stall which is for more than just 1-2 sessions and still is there after a deload perhaps ?




Thanks in advance, routine looks solid

When it comes to bulking or cutting it's best to gain/lose weight slowly. If I were to add extra exercises my personal selections would be hyperextensions, leg press, chin-ups, dips, wide grip upright rows, chest-supported rows (elbows flared), dumbbell shrugs.

It doesn't matter how you reach your total rep target, just take every set to/near failure, that's the only stipulation I would add.

[Jasonk282]

Yeah that sums it up nicely. As far as a practical minimum, I think it's prudent to aim for at least 1 g dietary fat per kg of body weight, or ~.45 g per lb of body weight.

.45g seems pretty much the recommended minimum here.

[Jasonk282]

When it comes to bulking or cutting it's best to gain/lose weight slowly. If I were to add extra exercises my personal selections would be hyperextensions, leg press, chin-ups, dips, wide grip upright rows, chest-supported rows (elbows flared), dumbbell shrugs.

It doesn't matter how you reach your total rep target, just take every set to/near failure, that's the only stipulation I would add.

You're naturally going to have a rapid gain/loss due to the excess/reduction of cals right away. However this should level off after 2 weeks, IMO. After that I personally advise people no more than a .5 lb gain/reduction each week or 1 lb every 2 weeks and to use a weekly average/mirror to judge how their progress is going.

When I ran your RP program for my cut I was surprised how fast the weight came off, probably because I was pretty damn over weight. going from 193-170 in 3 months

[Kelei]

You're naturally going to have a rapid gain/loss due to the excess/reduction of cals right away. However this should level off after 2 weeks, IMO. After that I personally advise people no more than a .5 lb gain/reduction each week or 1 lb every 2 weeks and to use a weekly average/mirror to judge how their progress is going.

When I ran your RP program for my cut I was surprised how fast the weight came off, probably because I was pretty damn over weight. going from 193-170 in 3 months

When I make adjustments to my food intake I always use the first week as a washout period, decreasing or increasing your carbohydrate and/or sodium intake/s can give you a false/misleading reading on the scale, I find a week is usually long enough for my scale weight to stabalize.

So usually what I do after making adjustments to my food intake is to follow my new diet for a week and then use my weight at the end of the week as my setpoint or starting weight.

On a side note it makes it far easier to accurately track your weight if your carb and sodium intakes are kept steady, if your carb and sodium intakes fluctuate from day to day and week to week you'll have a hard time getting a reliable scale reading, you'd need to use some kind of long term averaging system instead.

[Jasonk282]

When I make adjustments to my food intake I always use the first week as a washout period, decreasing or increasing your carbohydrate and/or sodium intake/s can give you a false/misleading reading on the scale, I find a week is usually long enough for my scale weight to stabalize.

So usually what I do after making adjustments to my food intake is to follow my new diet for a week and then use my weight at the end of the week as my setpoint or starting weight.

On a side note it makes it far easier to accurately track your weight if your carb and sodium intakes are kept steady, if your carb and sodium intakes fluctuate from day to day and week to week you'll have a hard time getting a reliable scale reading, you'd need to use some kind of long term averaging system instead.

Indeed it does. My cardiologist put me on a low sodium diet, which is why my weight dropped so damn fast. I was going from like 5-6000mg to literally 14-2000mg and even now I keep them low, typically under 2000mg.
What I have noitced though are times that i do go over, due to family stuff or eating at say a Chinese buffet is that I bloat up real easy now.

However, I like the low sodium as it seems a lot easier for me to keep my weight in check.,

[Kelei]

Indeed it does. My cardiologist put me on a low sodium diet, which is why my weight dropped so damn fast. I was going from like 5-6000mg to literally 14-2000mg and even now I keep them low, typically under 2000mg.
What I have noitced though are times that i do go over, due to family stuff or eating at say a Chinese buffet is that I bloat up real easy now.

However, I like the low sodium as it seems a lot easier for me to keep my weight in check.,

I'm not a cardiologist or doctor so you can take my advice with a grain of salt but I believe it's your potassium/sodium ratio that matters more than the absolute amount of sodium in your diet. There's research indicating that a low sodium intake could very well be detrimental or harmful so I'm more inclined to advise someone with high blood pressure to increase their potassium intake instead of reducing their sodium intake, unless of course their sodium intake is obviously overkill in which case a reduction in sodium intake would aslo be warranted.

The common advice to severely reduce/restrict sodium intake will certainly improve your sodium/potassium ratio but it also runs the risk of reducing your sodium intake so low that you no longer meet your minimum sodium requirement (athletes and highly active people need more sodium than sedentary people), so essentially you're solving one problem only to create another problem. 1500 mg of sodium per day is very low for an athlete or physically active person (manual labourer etc), especially during hot weather when sodium losses in sweat are high, hyponatremia is quite common in athletes and people who work long hours in the heat.

Increasing your potassium intake will improve your sodium/potassium ratio and reduce your blood pessure without risking a sodium deficiency. For physically active people (especially during hot weather) I recommend a minimum sodium intake of 3 grams per day while also making an effort to include plenty of potassium rich foods in their diets.

But as I mentioned earlier I'm not a doctor so none of this constitutes medical advice.

[Yeahbrah333]

It doesn't matter how you reach your total rep target, just take every set to/near failure, that's the only stipulation I would add.

Even if there is a scenario when I manage one rep more/the same reps on a set than the previous one ? (due to resting time)



What is your full-fat dairy product btw ?

[Kelei]

Sodium losses in sweat is actually one of the primary ways in which exercise reduces your risk of high blood pressure and heart disease, exercise also reduces blood/plasma glucose concentrations by two mechanisms, firstly exercise directly burns blood glucose and secondly exercise depletes muscle/liver glycogen stores which are replenished by taking glucose from the blood. Reducing blood glucose levels has been shown to offer protection against diabetes and heart disease.

Just in case anyone was curious as to how exercise actually imparts its protective effects.

[Kelei]

Even if there is a scenario when I manage one rep more/the same reps on a set than the previous one ? (due to resting time)



What is your full-fat dairy product btw ?

It doesn't/wouldn't matter, just take every set to/near failure and complete your total number of reps however you prefer, short rest periods with lots of sets (even to the point of rest-pause) or long rest periods with fewer sets, whatever.

I drink 3 litres of whole milk every day along with 500 grams beef mince, 6 whole eggs and 300 grams basmati rice (when measured raw), these are my staples and my entire diet revolves around them.

[Jasonk282]

I'm not a cardiologist or doctor so you can take my advice with a grain of salt but I believe it's your potassium/sodium ratio that matters more than the absolute amount of sodium in your diet. There's research indicating that a low sodium intake could very well be detrimental or harmful so I'm more inclined to advise someone with high blood pressure to increase their potassium intake instead of reducing their sodium intake, unless of course their sodium intake is obviously overkill in which case a reduction in sodium intake would aslo be warranted.

The common advice to severely reduce/restrict sodium intake will certainly improve your sodium/potassium ratio but it also runs the risk of reducing your sodium intake so low that you no longer meet your minimum sodium requirement (athletes and highly active people need more sodium than sedentary people), so essentially you're solving one problem only to create another problem. 1500 mg of sodium per day is very low for an athlete or physically active person (manual labourer etc), especially during hot weather when sodium losses in sweat are high, hyponatremia is quite common in athletes and people who work long hours in the heat.

Increasing your potassium intake will improve your sodium/potassium ratio and reduce your blood pessure without risking a sodium deficiency. For physically active people (especially during hot weather) I recommend a minimum sodium intake of 3 grams per day while also making an effort to include plenty of potassium rich foods in their diets.

But as I mentioned earlier I'm not a doctor so none of this constitutes medical advice.

oh j get all of that. He checked my ankles and notice slight swelling and I had moderate hypertrophy with my heart from my last check up.

Granted I was also 215 versus 165 from my last visit and on the see food diet with lots of processed foods.

I got back in a few weeks for my heart MRI so I'm hoping for much better results. Due to my medical condition, I had open heart surgery at 18 months old where my valves were crossed, I generally follow the advise of the cardiologist.

They were pretty shocked at how low my resting heart rate was and that during my stress rest they stopped the machine and even though I was around 170 Bpm I didn't even break a sweat. I also eat at least 1-2 bananas a day for potassium

[Kelei]

oh j get all of that. He checked my ankles and notice slight swelling and I had moderate hypertrophy with my heart from my last check up.

Granted I was also 215 versus 165 from my last visit and on the see food diet with lots of processed foods.

I got back in a few weeks for my heart MRI so I'm hoping for much better results. Due to my medical condition, I had open heart surgery at 18 months old where my valves were crossed, I generally follow the advise of the cardiologist.

They were pretty shocked at how low my resting heart rate was and that during my stress rest they stopped the machine and even though I was around 170 Bpm I didn't even break a sweat. I also eat at least 1-2 bananas a day for potassium

Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy?

[Yeahbrah333]

I drink 3 litres of whole milk every day along with 500 grams beef mince, 6 whole eggs and 300 grams basmati rice (when measured raw), these are my staples and my entire diet revolves around them.

Damn ! Nice.


What is your opinion on IIFYM in terms of not abusing it as most people do but just fitting stuff in like chocolate, cake etc. My diet coincides with your recommendations as I truly need carbs pre/port workout and most of them complex. Actually, my diet now/staples are eggs, chicken, olives, whole wheat pasta.





I wanted to ask also I understand the reasoning of no back arching but should the "retracting your shoulder blades" still be done ? I find it hard to do it as when I retract them I have a natural back arch, but it is miniature.



Oh, and I know that for you failure is as many full reps as possible and for bench for example I can understand that as you should stop after the rep after which you will get stuck... I know that stopping 1 rep shy even of that or actually failing due to misjudging is not bad and can and will clear up with experience, however on things such as curls and rope extensions it is a bit more different than bench

[Jasonk282]

Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy?

Transposition of the great vessels. Basically my blood was pumping backwards in teh heart. So they had to do a Mustard procedure where the put a bovine baffle so my heart pumps the correct way albeit in the wrong chambers.

[MichielN]

Kelei, do you still share your earlier visions on which supplements to take?

Especially curious on your vision on vitamin C. You used to recommend higher intakes, but I read that a high vitamin C intake reduces ROS activity or something like that (at least it concerns its antioxidant activity) which potentially has a negative effect on gains (don't know the exact magnitude of the effect, but still).

Thoughts?

[64509chvl]

I don't understand how this gets missed in pretty much every program, save for novice ones. More so when you literally say these are my personal choices. People act like it's the author writes it then it's set in stone and can never, ever be changed.

Lol...I completely understand why. Personally I don't think this way, but...
Generally who ever starts a new program/thread, they're looked at as the "boss". That being said, I've never worked a job where the boss laid out his practices & then I just went on & changed everything to what I thought was best. Atleast not without getting fired, lol!
I get your point, but I'm just stating this is more than likely why & will always be this way.

Plus it's the Internet so it's gotta be the only way !

[Yeahbrah333]

Kelei, do you still share your earlier visions on which supplements to take?

Especially curious on your vision on vitamin C. You used to recommend higher intakes, but I read that a high vitamin C intake reduces ROS activity or something like that (at least it concerns its antioxidant activity) which potentially has a negative effect on gains (don't know the exact magnitude of the effect, but still).

Thoughts?

Interested in this as well. If I remember correctly, I think orangetriad was recommended

[Kelei]

Damn ! Nice.


What is your opinion on IIFYM in terms of not abusing it as most people do but just fitting stuff in like chocolate, cake etc. My diet coincides with your recommendations as I truly need carbs pre/port workout and most of them complex. Actually, my diet now/staples are eggs, chicken, olives, whole wheat pasta.





I wanted to ask also I understand the reasoning of no back arching but should the "retracting your shoulder blades" still be done ? I find it hard to do it as when I retract them I have a natural back arch, but it is miniature.

I don't retract my shoulder blades, it's unnatural, when you press against a wall or something in real life do you ever retract your shoulder blades? No, you actually protract your shoulder blades.

The serratus anterior is responsible for maintaining shoulder/scapula stability during protraction, by intentionally avoiding protraction and enforcing retraction you're actually neglecting your serratus anterior which is absolutely disastrous when it comes to shoulder/scapula health.

I'm literally dumbfounded that anyone would actually advise retracting the scapulae during pressing movements, especially when they try to justify it by saying that it's safer/healthier, truly the epitome of irony.

I don't like IIFYM because it encourages people to eat crappy processed foods which are often devoid of vitamins and minerals and more often than not contain dangerous/detrimental food additives. It also fails to distinguish between sugars and starch which can have real consequences, for example fructose (sucrose and HFCS contain around 50% fructose) does not suppress appetite/hunger, if you eat 300 calories from fat or glucose/galactose your appetite/hunger is suppressed accordingly, your body registers the 300 calories, if on the other hand you eat 300 calories from fructose it's as if it never happened, you could almost call them "ghost" calories.

This is one of the primary reasons why old school bodybuilders avoided fruit during contest prep, when your calories are already low and you're ravenous with hunger the last thing you want to be eating is calories that your body doesn't even register, if you're eating 2000 calories but 300 are coming from fructose your appetite/hunger will feel as though you're only eating 1700 calories.

The other reason why bodybuilders usually avoid fructose during contest prep is that fructose can't replenish muscle glycogen stores and when your carbohydrate intake is already greatly reduced you want every gram to count, glucose is preferred because it can replenish muscle glycogen stores which are required to maintain at least half decent workouts.

If I could give only one piece of advice to the general public in regards to weight loss it'd be to eliminate sugar as much as possible/practical from their diets, they'd start eating less calories without even realising it because now when they ate 2300 calories their bodies would register 2300 calories and suppress their appetites and hunger levels accordingly.

Currently people are eating so much sugar that several hundred (or even worse) calories per day are simply flying under the radar, they're eating 2300 but they feel like they're only eating 1700, if they were to eliminate sugar they might only eat 2000 calories per day which might very well be their maintenance.

Avoiding fructose (which also means avoiding sucrose and HFCS) during a cut/recomp will suppress your hunger/appetite, don't just take my word for it guys, go ahead and give it a trial the next time you decide to cut/recomp.