Failing required reps on 531?

[PiperBill]

What do I do if I don't make the required reps on 531? On week 1 of my second cycle I only just made the required 5 reps (with good form) for the military press at 110 lbs. No way I could do more than 5 without cheating. If I had only made 3 or 4 reps then what would be the correct way to fix this?

I am on a cut and taking a break from creatine. I think these two combined have made me a bit under par as far as strength goes. My calculated 1RM is 132 lbs based on the last cycle.

Bill

[Jtbny]

What do I do if I don't make the required reps on 531? On week 1 of my second cycle I only just made the required 5 reps (with good form) for the military press at 110 lbs. No way I could do more than 5 without cheating. If I had only made 3 or 4 reps then what would be the correct way to fix this?

I am on a cut and taking a break from creatine. I think these two combined have made me a bit under par as far as strength goes. My calculated 1RM is 132 lbs based on the last cycle.

Bill

If you are missing reps on the second cycle you started to high to begin with.

Many people run into the same issue and end up spinning their wheels. JW is very explicit that you need to error on the low side of your 1 rep maxes. He even knocks the 1 rep max number down to 90% to help.

I would reevaluate the numbers you used and start much lighter than you think. In a few cycles the numbers will be where they need to be and you'll progress. If not you will just spin your wheels over and over.

[PiperBill]

If you are missing reps on the second cycle you started to high to begin with.

Yes I read that in Wendlers book. I did make the required reps of 5 though. Just not able to do any extras. On the first cycle I did the 5 required reps plus 5 extra on the first week of MP at 100 lbs. Maybe I just had an off day?

Bill

[Jtbny]

Yes I read that in Wendlers book. I did make the required reps of 5 though. Just not able to do any extras. On the first cycle I did the 5 required reps plus 5 extra on the first week of MP at 100 lbs. Maybe I just had an off day?

Bill

Could be but it's still way to close to early. From my expereince and the numerous others I've seen run the program the +5 day usually yields 10 or so reps for the first few cycles.

[EjnarKolinkar]

Your start weights are set too high.

[tsoden]

Yes I read that in Wendlers book. I did make the required reps of 5 though. Just not able to do any extras. On the first cycle I did the 5 required reps plus 5 extra on the first week of MP at 100 lbs. Maybe I just had an off day?

Bill

Sounds to me that you are doing the exact same thing that you did in Stronglifts 5x5. You need to drop the weight to get in all the reps and sets. Don't be in a hurry to building the weight up - you might have conquered the 5 reps, but you still need fuel in the tank for the additional reps and sets. If you have no gas, you went to high on your first set.

[azeeb]

Yes I read that in Wendlers book. I did make the required reps of 5 though. Just not able to do any extras. On the first cycle I did the 5 required reps plus 5 extra on the first week of MP at 100 lbs. Maybe I just had an off day?

Bill

If you were using 100 lbs on your last cycle, you shouldn't have been using 110 lbs this time.

You don't recalculate your 1RM every cycle. You are only supposed to add 5lbs to your training max from last cycle for upper body lifts, and 10lbs for lower body lifts.

[GnomusMaximus]

I think he said to take 90% of the current 5/3/1 max (where you are when you start missing) and then start from there. Also what azeeb said. You just add 5 or 10 lbs (I use 2.5 or 5 kg) to the next cycle, not recalculate it each time.

[PiperBill]

If you were using 100 lbs on your last cycle, you shouldn't have been using 110 lbs this time.

You don't recalculate your 1RM every cycle. You are only supposed to add 5lbs to your training max from last cycle for upper body lifts, and 10lbs for lower body lifts.

OIC now! I am using this 531 calculator

http://grigaitis.net/5/3/1/

As far as I remember it works out your next cycle based on your max reps from max weight of the current cycle when completed (I think?) but in any case it (or I) have added 5kg and 10kg. instead of 5 and 10 lbs.

I should mention that I didn't do the deload since I was advised that is was not needed when first starting 531. After this cycle I am off on vacation for a week and plan on doing bugger all for a week of sun and surf.

[Jtbny]

If you were using 100 lbs on your last cycle, you shouldn't have been using 110 lbs this time.

You don't recalculate your 1RM every cycle. You are only supposed to add 5lbs to your training max from last cycle for upper body lifts, and 10lbs for lower body lifts.

This except you left out you then recalculate based on that "new" training max.

[scotpak1979]

This thread has a great spreadsheet you can use:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=147563303


Im only cycle 7 and still not close to stalling.

I would just start again. Use a conservative 1rpm then use 90% of that as you training max. Then use the spreadsheet so you dont have to worry
about all the calculations.

[Dave4D]

Last week I was doing my 3rd week on Deadlifts. On my final set, for 1 rep, I was able to put out 10 reps. This week, I struggled to get my recommended 5 reps on the last set. Diet, energy, time of day, and many other factors contribute to your workout. If I remember Wendler recommended not doing the program on a cut, and if you did, to look for smaller gains, (only going up by 2 1/2 lbs instead of the 5 or 10 lbs.) As long as you are hitting the recommended weights, you are okay. If you fail to get all your reps, re-run with the same 1 rep max on your next cycle, and if you fail again. reset your max to what your failed weight gives you, and work from there.

I took several months off from lifting, and had to drop my 1 rep max weights a lot. It will take me a while to get back to where I used to be.

[PersonaNonGrata]

This is why i dont get on with 531. You have a slightly off day and they you either have to reset or you start questioning everything.

[PiperBill]

Well today I did 531 bench. The required reps on the last set were 5 x 165 lbs (I love using pounds as it sounds like so much more than kgs) I did 7 and could have done more if I had really pushed it. Right after that I did a set of 10 at 130 just coz I felt I wanted to do more at a lesser weight. Bench still scares me a bit after tearing a rotator cuff at 210 in march last year so I am being cautious with it.

I think that's pretty good considering I mistakingly added 5kg instead of 5 lbs to this cycle. I will see how the next session of MPs go and if I struggle too much to get the required reps in then I will back off 5 lbs.

Bill

[Jtbny]

This is why i dont get on with 531. You have a slightly off day and they you either have to reset or you start questioning everything.

lol no...

[EjnarKolinkar]

This is why i dont get on with 531. You have a slightly off day and they you either have to reset or you start questioning everything.

Not really people can do as they choose. Often when starting out this or any other progression people just start with no room to grow. Then beat themselves to a pulp workong at 100% of 5,3, or 1 rep maxes.

You can always miss and try again, and again if you want to.

[67Vert]

Yes I read that in Wendlers book. I did make the required reps of 5 though. Just not able to do any extras. On the first cycle I did the 5 required reps plus 5 extra on the first week of MP at 100 lbs. Maybe I just had an off day?

Bill

If you did 100 lbs last cycle, you should not be at 110 the next. Something's wrong with your calculations.

But once you get your math straightened out, if you feel like you just had a bad day, just continue to the next week. If you miss that too, it's probably time to reset.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Not really people can do as they choose. Often when starting out this or any other progression people just start with no room to grow. Then beat themselves to a pulp workong at 100% of 5,3, or 1 rep maxes.

You can always miss and try again, and again if you want to.

That's what i ended up doing, but if you follow the program, you are supposed to back off if you miss the targets

Either way, it's too prescriptive for me - i know when i walk in the gym whether it's going to be an "off day" ... listen to your body etc

[Desparado]

That's what i ended up doing, but if you follow the program, you are supposed to back off if you miss the targets

Either way, it's too prescriptive for me - i know when i walk in the gym whether it's going to be an "off day" ... listen to your body etc

Backing off when you miss the required reps isn't a bad thing. Sometimes you have to take one step backwards in order to gain traction to move forward again. Knowing that you are going to have an "off" day as soon as you walk in the gym SOMETIMES produce the opposite effect: a fantastic workout, set a new PR. That's happened to me, and to many others, quite a few times.

5/3/1 isn't for everyone but if you're looking for a program that will allow you to make slow and steady progress, IMO it's one of the better programs out there.

[Jtbny]

That's what i ended up doing, but if you follow the program, you are supposed to back off if you miss the targets

Either way, it's too prescriptive for me - i know when i walk in the gym whether it's going to be an "off day" ... listen to your body etc

If you are missing reps, even on off days, a few cycles in you started to heavy. That's not the program's fault. JW tries to get the reader/lifter to start lighter and work your way in. He even knocks off 10% off of the 1 rep max so even if you still go all potatoe with your starting training max it will keep you from stalling immediately.

Also, there is nothing wrong with taking a step back to move two forward. Imo you build strength from the bottom up (rep work in the 60-80% range) rather than in the 90-100% range you see so many in the gym constantly work in. I've been running 5/3/1 or one of its variants since April of 2013 so I have a pretty good handle on it.

As for it being to prescriptive that's personal preference. Listening to your body is great but many use that as a license to be a pussy on days they aren't shooting rainbows out of their asses. It's the days where you don't feel it that you really find out what your made of. Ymmv

[EjnarKolinkar]

That's what i ended up doing, but if you follow the program, you are supposed to back off if you miss the targets

Either way, it's too prescriptive for me - i know when i walk in the gym whether it's going to be an "off day" ... listen to your body etc

Yeah, I think programming daily maxes is too complicated for most people that are leaving a 5x5 looking for a slower progresion. Thats the point of the amrap set. If you are not set at 100% of your everyday max and you are having a good day maybe you get 4 reps bad day 2. Running the program and listening to the body aren't mutually exclusive.

And the program recommends 1-2 reps in the tank on the amrap.

None of this works if you are set too high. Especially if you are 1,2,3 cycles in. Its a training template, not a peaking protocol.

There are 1/2 dozen points trying to keep people training and not sitting stuck at a 100% single Built into the program. But the allure of more plates right now, heh well its a flame and the moths all come flying.

But I firmly believe if your at an all out single with nothing left even on a good day getting the prescriptive message back from your program that you need to reset your progression is the correct notion regardles of the program.

Im unaware of a intermediate program that reccomends sustained weekly training at that intensity.

Different strokes for different folks though.


Tldr

[Flounderbout]

I have never missed the required reps on 531 until well into the program (usually cycle 7 or 8) if injury free. Like everyone has already said if you don't do the program as written (i.e. you start too heavy) then there is only one person to blame.

Listening to your body is great but many use that as a license to be a pussy on days they aren't shooting rainbows out of their asses. It's the days where you don't feel it that you really find out what your made of. Ymmv

Strong this. Many of my best days have been when I felt like utter crap going to the gym. If I listened to my body, I'd still be pretty much where I was 2 years ago. My weak-ass body needs dragging along kicking and screaming.

As for prescriptive, the only way I can see of being less prescriptive than doing 531 is doing no set program progression at all. Obviously that is fine for some, but I would hazard a guess that most benefit from a set progression of some sort, particularly anyone at beginner or intermediate level.

[mirroroferised]

If you are missing reps, even on off days, a few cycles in you started to heavy. That's not the program's fault. JW tries to get the reader/lifter to start lighter and work your way in. He even knocks off 10% off of the 1 rep max so even if you still go all potatoe with your starting training max it will keep you from stalling immediately.

Also, there is nothing wrong with taking a step back to move two forward. Imo you build strength from the bottom up (rep work in the 60-80% range) rather than in the 90-100% range you see so many in the gym constantly work in. I've been running 5/3/1 or one of its variants since April of 2013 so I have a pretty good handle on it.

As for it being to prescriptive that's personal preference. Listening to your body is great but many use that as a license to be a pussy on days they aren't shooting rainbows out of their asses. It's the days where you don't feel it that you really find out what your made of. Ymmv

But the allure of more plates right now, heh well its a flame and the moths all come flying.

QFT

I'm guilty as well of toying with my numbers a bit during and between cycles and paying the price sometimes. It's all a learning process. Just keep after it. Don't worry about what's on the bar, worry about getting your reps in. It's not uncommon in the first cycle or 2 to hit the teens on your 5+ day. That doesn't stick around very long though. The weights will got up if you follow the program. Took me awhile to get my numbers straight in the beginning as well.

[PersonaNonGrata]

I have never missed the required reps on 531 until well into the program (usually cycle 7 or 8) if injury free. Like everyone has already said if you don't do the program as written (i.e. you start too heavy) then there is only one person to blame.



Strong this. Many of my best days have been when I felt like utter crap going to the gym. If I listened to my body, I'd still be pretty much where I was 2 years ago. My weak-ass body needs dragging along kicking and screaming.

As for prescriptive, the only way I can see of being less prescriptive than doing 531 is doing no set program progression at all. Obviously that is fine for some, but I would hazard a guess that most benefit from a set progression of some sort, particularly anyone at beginner or intermediate level.

i used to think like that. in fact, 2 years ago i could have written that post.

2 years and 2 injuries later, i've changed my mind. I hope you dont learn that lesson the hard way.

[PiperBill]

Back to my original post. Today I did 531 Squat and then MP BBB 5 x 10 at just 75lbs. I failed on the third set of MPs at rep 7. Dropped the weight by 10 lbs and did 2 x 10 to finish. This must be to do with the fact that I am eating at a 300 - 500 cals under maintenace. In fact today I had eaten very little during the day as I just wasn't hungy at all. I had a whey shake and a peanut butter sandwich before training but had only eaten about 500 cals in the 8 hours before that.

My question is: On MP days would it be a good idea to eat at maintenance or above? Will it make any differance just eating more on that day, before working out? I need to find a balance where I still lose 1 - 2 lbs a week but still be able to make some progression on 531.

My weight loss is going real slow so far so I def have to keep to 300-500 cals under.

Bill

[Jtbny]

Back to my original post. Today I did 531 Squat and then MP BBB 5 x 10 at just 75lbs. I failed on the third set of MPs at rep 7. Dropped the weight by 10 lbs and did 2 x 10 to finish. This must be to do with the fact that I am eating at a 300 - 500 cals under maintenace. In fact today I had eaten very little during the day as I just wasn't hungy at all. I had a whey shake and a peanut butter sandwich before training but had only eaten about 500 cals in the 8 hours before that.

My question is: On MP days would it be a good idea to eat at maintenance or above? Will it make any differance just eating more on that day, before working out? I need to find a balance where I still lose 1 - 2 lbs a week but still be able to make some progression on 531.

My weight loss is going real slow so far so I def have to keep to 300-500 cals under.

Bill

If you failed on the 5 sets of 10 just lower the amount you are using. The 5x10 is an accessory. It's the minor leagues. Don't focus in the minor leagues just the majors. Your main objective should be to get the required reps on the main lifts.

Fwiw when I'm dieting my presses take the biggest hit after about 3 weeks. If your goal is to lose weight don't sweat missing a few accessory reps.

I would not up my calories if my goal was to lose weight and I was on track with that.