Rich Gaspari talks about out-angling someone to make yourself look bigger

[bartosh]

speaking of gaspari, apparently his company is going through bankruptcy. some really insightful posts in the thread:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=164602761

and apparently lobliner is a scumbag. worth a skim through the thread

[RoroCwalker]

Yes, I did prove my point - there's nothing unfair about it BECAUSE everyone can do the same thing, ELIMINATING any advantage. This is basic logic, Roro. In physics, it's called "relativity" - for example, something moving 25 mph is going that fast *in relation* to another object. The same applies with distance. Therefore, other competitors can *remove* any advantage Phil gains from stepping forward by *also stepping forward*...and since nobody is stopping the other competitors from doing it, there's nothing unfair about it.

I don't think you understand my point.

Phil Heath is deceiving the judges' perspective in his favor, to make himself look bigger than he is.

He is frauding a perspective.
He is deceiving an intended perspective.
He is cheating the perspective.

The perspective is meant to be symmetrical, to make it fair and optimal to judge competitors with eachothers.
To alter that perspective in your favor, is to cheat it.

Phil Heath and Kai Greene were asked to stand back on the line in 2012, they were asked, therefore, it matters, something triggered the judges' decision, they most likely thought that it was unfair that one was in front of the other. In fact, regardless of what their reason was, they called them back in line for a reason, yet, Phil did the same thing again, that same thing that the judges implied not to do.

Do you understand, stealth? Is it clear? What do you not understand? Is there a word I am misusing? Is there a word that confuses you? Do you thoroughly understand the points and arguments I'm providing? Can you pinpoint the exact sentence(point) that you disagree with?

What I'm saying is factual. You cannot agree or disagree with my current point, you can either understand it or not.

What I'm saying is not subjective, I'm not giving you my opinion, it's objective, it's a fact based on a situation and the definition attributed to it.

It is a fact that Phil's tactic produces a situation where the intended concept of symmetrical comparison suffers from unfairness .

unfair;

"not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
synonyms: unjust, inequitable, prejudiced, biased, discriminatory"

[stealth_swimmer]

Glad you din't fall for giving a direct "yes" answer. Nevertheless my question put you in a lose-lose situation...the " its not on the rulebook" argument just died.

Now the last paragraph, we have discussed this. When judges say "step back to the line", its means that its not allowed or otherwise they should would be quiet...the thing is they don't always see that one athlete is in front of others (or so i believe, others might say they don't want to see), they only tell them to step back when its more than one. So, its not allowed, but the judges are faulty in their enforcement.

We have been upset about phil doing because phil is the one that is doing it now. Maybe if you had a forum in arnold's or levrone's or gaspari's time people would have been upset sooner. I sure would, if it had been pointed out to me sooner. Also, the reason people are upset, its because he is winning, so the focus is on him. I stand by it on principle, you point to anyone that is in front of others and i will be against it.

Nice try, but there was thread on this very forum with a video of Levrone talking about it, and nobody got upset about it.

speaking of gaspari, apparently his company is going through bankruptcy. some really insightful posts in the thread:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=164602761

and apparently lobliner is a scumbag. worth a skim through the thread

Interesting.

Not sure where you got that idea about Lobliner though. Was it that person who said he changes his opinion based on who he's in with a video? Cus he doesn't, and that's a ridiculous strawman of his actual positions - which he describes in detail throughout various videos.

Or was it that guy who posted "When you're an actual owner you can spend your time doing whatever you want,"? Cus that's a load of bullsh*t. If you own a company and want it to succeed, chances are you work your butt off. My dad owns a small business, and he works way more than any of the employees by far. He works after hours, that his *actual* workload is at least 12 hours a day. There are people around here who try running their businesses like that, thinking that just because they're a boss/owner that they can slack, and that often results in their business having troubles.

Or is it the posts about people whining that he got huge really fast? Cus he's never actually claimed to be natural, so I don't know why people keep bringing that up.

Or is it that one post saying that Marc wasn't friendly one of the times he met him? Cus everyone has a bad day sometimes (I met Marc twice, and he was really nice both times and even took time to have a conversation with me).

Or was it that post about amino spiking? Cus Marc made a video about companies *accused* of it - he even said that there was not any proof at the time that the videos were made, and he gave examples of companies who he felt confident were *not* amino spiking (like Dymatize).


Gotta say though - that part about Gaspari products being spiked with bunk or with prescription drugs is pretty shady on both extremes (on one side, spiking with stuff that lowers effectiveness/quality, and the other side spiking with stuff that works but that people don't want)

[stealth_swimmer]

I don't think you understand my point.

Phil Heath is deceiving the judges' perspective in his favor, to make himself look bigger than he is.

He is frauding a perspective.
He is deceiving an intended perspective.
He is cheating the perspective.

The perspective is meant to be symmetrical, to make it fair and optimal to judge competitors with eachothers.
To alter that perspective in your favor, is to cheat it.

Phil Heath and Kai Greene were asked to stand back on the line in 2012, they were asked, therefore, it matters, something triggered the judges' decision, they most likely thought that it was unfair that one was in front of the other. In fact, regardless of what their reason was, they called them back in line for a reason, yet, Phil did the same thing again, that same thing that the judges implied not to do.

Do you understand, stealth? Is it clear? What do you not understand? Is there a word I am misusing? Is there a word that confuses you? Do you thoroughly understand the points and arguments I'm providing? Can you pinpoint the exact sentence(point) that you disagree with?

What I'm saying is factual. You cannot agree or disagree with my current point, you can either understand it or not.What I'm saying is not subjective, I'm not giving you my opinion, it's objective, it's a fact.

It is a fact that Phil's tactic produces a situation where the intended concept of symmetrical comparison suffers from unfairness .

unfair;

"not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
synonyms: unjust, inequitable, prejudiced, biased, discriminatory"

The perspective is allowed to be changed by all the competitors because the judges allow them to do it, and every competitor knows they can do it - so there's nothing fraudulent about it.

Once again - all competitors can do it, eliminating any inequality, so it's not unfair.

[RoroCwalker]

The perspective is allowed to be changed by all the competitors because the judges allow them to do it - so there's nothing fraudulent about it.

Again, you're making the same mistake and contradiction I've pointed out in the original discussion.

When I made the distinction between legally cheating and cheating a perspective, you agreed and said that "fairness" had nothing to do with rules.

Now you're making the same mistake.

I am not talking about legal matters. I am talking about cheating the concept of symmetrical comparison, the concept itself is being touched by it, not the rules, the concept of symmetrical/fair comparison.


They were asked back in line, therefore, it matters, the judges asked them to stay back on the line, it was ordered to stay on the line, what did Phil do? He stepped over the line again.


"Stop, stay back on the line, both of you."

"Gotta stay on the same sign."

[bartosh]

I wasnt starting an argument stealth. I just thought it was an interesting thread. Night folks

[IngeKJ]

How are you two still on this ****? Its been two years and you still havent concluded?

[pharmamarketer]

with Marc Lobliner of Tigerfitness. Found this vid hilarious (and true)







And as you can see - stepping in front of other competitors is NOT new and has been done forever. Phil haters ain't gonna stop hating, but just showing some historical context to this whole issue.

You need to get laid. It will help

[Unbiasedfan]

Nice try, but there was thread on this very forum with a video of Levrone talking about it, and nobody got upset about it.

Yup, he wasn't winning, like i mentioned, so no attention on him. See, his tricks weren't working anyway, so nobody cared.

Nice argument against my proof as to why it is, in fact, not allowed to step over the line.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=154414681

This the thread? few to no comments, and phil was mentioned. Obviously people wouldn't be upset lol, its the past and got him nothing...

[Unbiasedfan]

"Stop, stay back on the line, both of you."

"Gotta stay on the same sign."

Judges are just trolling them, its not on the rulebook bro

This debate is over.

[lancs_hotpot]

Standing over the line is not cheating. Its tactics and gamesmanship. The judges dont care and neither do the bodybuilders. Even of it was in the rule book if everyone does it and its overlooked then it cant be considered cheating.

If Phil gained an advantage by stepping closer to the judges then its down to Kai or whoever else is competing to step forward too, not stand like a retard and remain disadvantaged, its that ****in simple. To call it cheating is ridiculous. **** like this happens is all sports (for lack of a better word) and what happens? Either the governing bodies crack down and enforce rules or everyone does it to keep it a level playing field. No need for agrument, thats it.

[Unbiasedfan]

Standing over the line is not cheating. Its tactics and gamesmanship. The judges dont care and neither do the bodybuilders. Even of it was in the rule book if everyone does it and its overlooked then it cant be considered cheating.

If Phil gained an advantage by stepping closer to the judges then its down to Kai or whoever else is competing to step forward too, not stand like a retard and remain disadvantaged, its that ****in simple. To call it cheating is ridiculous. **** like this happens is all sports (for lack of a better word) and what happens? Either the governing bodies crack down and enforce rules or everyone does it to keep it a level playing field. No need for agrument, thats it.

Nope. He judges care, and thats why they tell them to get back in line. The bodybuilders care, thats why they do it. Everyone doesn't overlook it.

If phil gains an advantaged, he stands there, kai follows, and only then are they called back. The cycle repeats. They enforce the "implicit rule" when its more then 1 in front of the others, and starts to crowd. They should enforce it at all times, its quite simple.

[lancs_hotpot]

Nope. He judges care, and thats why they tell them to get back in line. The bodybuilders care, thats why they do it. Everyone doesn't overlook it.

If phil gains an advantaged, he stands there, kai follows, and only then are they called back. The cycle repeats. They enforce the "implicit rule" when its more then 1 in front of the others, and starts to crowd. They should enforce it at all times, its quite simple.

Nobody cares except people in forums. The judges call attention to it now and then. Ive only ever heard of it this year and last year after the olympia. The bodybuilders should keep going forward to the edge of the stage untill someone is forced to make it properly against the rules and enforce it, but they dont because its hardly an issue.

[Unbiasedfan]

Nobody cares except people in forums. The judges call attention to it now and then. Ive only ever heard of it this year and last year after the olympia. The bodybuilders should keep going forward to the edge of the stage untill someone is forced to make it properly against the rules and enforce it, but they dont because its hardly an issue.

As i said, they care otherwise they wouldn't do it. Now and then is the stupid part, if its rule should be always. If not, it should be never. 2012 double comparisons between top 2 was when people paid attention to it, because 1- it was the top 2 and people were paying attention; 2- plenty of pics showed how much in front of the line phil was. They should, but aren't able because the judges won't allow it, therefore making it a rule that is not in the rulebook. It shouldn't be applied only when multiple people step forward, it should be applied either always or never. For everybody or for nobody. The fact that it wasn't made it unfair, and could therefore be called cheating....but the judges are at fault. Again, simple.

[Groggery]

I already showed you folks enough pictures of line shenanigans from all parties and yet you're still grumbling about it.

This **** only keeps going because of the endless "debates" over whether Phil should practically exist or not.

[Unbiasedfan]

I already showed you folks enough pictures of line shenanigans from all parties and yet you're still grumbling about it.

This **** only keeps going because of the endless "debates" over whether Phil should practically exist or not.

Nothing to do with phil, besides him being the one that caught most of our attention first, in 2012, to the subject. Every party who does shouldn't do it. Why wouldn't they supervise it, its ridiculously easy.

[Groggery]

Why wouldn't they supervise it, its ridiculously easy.

They're not going to do anything you'd ever like. Period.

This "sport" is a niche freak show at the end of the day, so asking why it's not run like a legitimate enterprise is redundant.

Seriously, it gets really tiring to see people foaming over irrelevant ****. Take a more laid back approach, enjoy the pics when there's a show, admire the view whenever someone extremely striated gets shown, talk some small talk in the offtopic thread and leave it at that.

Almost five years of observations and everyone's still spinning their wheels like imbeciles. Some new troll pops up and spills stupidity to rile you all up, some old members tired of the status quo start acting like morons and the circus continues.

Every comparison that can happen has happened, every nuance has been discussed to death. You can't keep this train going forever.

Don't give a **** who wins, places, shows up or dies. It's not a dynamic hobby and never will be, so everyone trying to nitpick into oblivion to keep the conversations going is just wasting their breath.

[nonamewut]

speaking of gaspari, apparently his company is going through bankruptcy. some really insightful posts in the thread:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=164602761

and apparently lobliner is a scumbag. worth a skim through the thread

thred ded

if phil steps over the line the judges doesnt say anything

if kai and others steps up to the same position: "step back gentlemen"

[Unbiasedfan]

They're not going to do anything you'd ever like. Period.

This "sport" is a niche freak show at the end of the day, so asking why it's not run like a legitimate enterprise is redundant.

Seriously, it gets really tiring to see people foaming over irrelevant ****. Take a more laid back approach, enjoy the pics when there's a show, admire the view whenever someone extremely striated gets shown, talk some small talk in the offtopic thread and leave it at that.

Almost five years of observations and everyone's still spinning their wheels like imbeciles. Some new troll pops up and spills stupidity to rile you all up, some old members tired of the status quo start acting like morons and the circus continues.

Every comparison that can happen has happened, every nuance has been discussed to death. You can't keep this train going forever.

Don't give a **** who wins, places, shows up or dies. It's not a dynamic hobby and never will be, so everyone trying to nitpick into oblivion to keep the conversations going is just wasting their breath.

That is your approach. The approach that would give the forum basically less then 20 threads a year, with nothing but pics on them, besides the ot thread.

So i guess this applies to your approach too:

"They're not going to do anything you'd ever like. Period."

, because this forum will never be like that. But you keep presenting your approach, right? I am sure some will say its tiring too.

New members will enter, old discussions they are unaware will be brought up again. I've been here long enough to know it cycles too. If/when i find it tiring, i will probably stop posting/logging in, and keep enjoying the new shows as they happen. But i won't try to change it, because that would be a waste of my breath.

[Groggery]

Alright, see you next O and i do hope you enjoy arguing with the wall over there.

[RoroCwalker]

How are you two still on this ****? Its been two years and you still havent concluded?

I've concluded long ago.

To call it cheating is ridiculous.

To say that it's not cheating is not only ridiculous, but also fallacious.

Seriously, it gets really tiring to see people foaming over irrelevant ****.

Don't give a **** who wins, places, shows up or dies. It's not a dynamic hobby and never will be, so everyone trying to nitpick into oblivion to keep the conversations going is just wasting their breath.

"irrelevant"

"don't give a sh*t who wins, places, shows up or dies."

Saying that perspective is irrelevant and not giving a sh*t about who wins, places, shows up or dies, is quite odd for a "follower".

It is relevant.