RESPONSES: Clinton Explains Why Raising Min. Wage is "good economics"

[nutsy54]

It's like talking to a 10 year old.

OK nutsy, whatever you say.

By the way, Canada's unemployment rate is higher than the U.S. (7% compared to 6.1%), so why are you holding up Canada as "better" in this regard, when they're not?

Seriously, what point are you trying to make?

[gachase21]

You sound retarded when you say this.



The argument over whether or not we should raise minimum wage is purely an economical one, correct? So where are the arguments on the opposite side of the aisle? What am I missing (economically, not philosophically) about what Clinton is saying?

This makes a lot of sense to me.

Read my explanation In post 60. Clinton's claim that 35 million other workers pay would increase somewhat supports my argument.

[Manc33]

Bill Clinton has too high of an IQ for people to understand him.

By the way, Canada's unemployment rate is higher than the U.S. (7% compared to 6.1%), so why are you holding up Canada as "better" in this regard, when they're not?

Seriously, what point are you trying to make?

Maybe because the US has gone to chit compared to what it was like 50 years ago while Canada remained about the same. I think he might be trying to point out what you used to have in the US.

Where in the fuk do people like you get your reps lol. You get told stuff endlessly and never catch on.

EDIT: Saw age: 44 sorry. We do have to rely on younger people with more open minds I guess. Don't be so set in your ways!

[nutsy54]

Bill Clinton has too high of an IQ for people to understand him.



Maybe because the US has gone to chit compared to what it was like 50 years ago while Canada remained about the same. I think he might be trying to point out what you used to have in the US.

Where in the fuk do people like you get your reps lol. You get told stuff endlessly and never twig on.

Um... Wut? US unemployment rate is better because we've gone to chit? Did you even read what you posted?

[linemanbrah]

Norwegian win at life brah checking in.

its beneficial to have a high minimum wage, it prevents you from investing even more in a ridiculous police force and prison system as most people can survive with some form of luxuries like education, materialistic bliss etc.

working 12 hour shifts, eating **** and living in a **** apartment would make anyone criminal.

Inb4 someone says we are rich on oil. strong ignorance

[Sublime82]

By the way, Canada's unemployment rate is higher than the U.S. (7% compared to 6.1%), so why are you holding up Canada as "better" in this regard, when they're not?

Seriously, what point are you trying to make?

In Canada the unemployment rate is calculated slightly differently than in the U.S. If they were measured using the same specifications, the Canadian measurement would drop around 1%.

http://milescorak.com/2012/05/04/the...an-it-appears/
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2000/06/art1full.pdf

[Manc33]

Um... Wut? US unemployment rate is better because we've gone to chit? Did you even read what you posted?

The fact that the US only just has a better unemployment rate than a frozen wasteland should be a clue to the US's obvious economic demise over the last 50 years.

Plus the Government will be using every trick in the book like calling people "employed" that work 2 hours a week.

Here in the UK you can even be classed as employed while being unemployed (srs).

[nutsy54]

In Canada the unemployment rate is calculated slightly differently than in the U.S. If they were measured using the same specifications, the Canadian measurement would drop around 1%.

http://milescorak.com/2012/05/04/the...an-it-appears/
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2000/06/art1full.pdf

Which still disproves CalmWinds bizarre push to claim Canada is much better off because of their minimum wage...

[Manc33]

Minimum wages shut down small businesses.

I myself would work for less than the minimum wage no problem if I really had to.

It isn't about giving people a minimum wage, it is about favouring massive corporations.

Guess who probably lobbied the Government for a minimum wage? The public might have appeared to have been the ones demanding it but thats just the "escape valve" to the lie.

This also breaks up communities because all the smaller shops just close. What do we have left now? Hairdressers, thats about the only thing left where a guy goes in and chats about the community and others he shares it with.

Its not just minimum wage, here they are even taking all the phone boxes away from the countryside to force people into cities more. No one can just live peacefully somewhere anymore. Look at Monsanto and the GM thing, putting pressure on farmers, its all orchestrated, all the same people own all those big corporations along with the banking system, education system, media and any other sphere of influence.

The mad thing is they have planned this all along going back centuries, perhaps even thousands of years, it is their wet dream to eradicate all forms of creativity or individuality.

[Stizzel]

Focus.

Conservatives, what's the basic economic argument against raising minimum wage? Because there's enough evidence to suggest the economy as a whole benefits, including those workers that would supposedly be 'let go' if an employer could not longer hire all of them.

There's no one argument. The idea is utterly retarded. And the data you're referring to is cherry picked.

If minimum wages really did what you claim, don't you think the corporate lobbies would have done away with them by now?

[Jasonw1178]

Minimum wage is basically a base line. When you move the base line up, everyone moves up from there, and prices increase. End result is inflation. There is a period of time where the inflation has not yet been realized, and during that time many jobs will be eliminated because the labor value simply doesn't cover the cost. They should adjust the min wage to keep up with inflation, every year.

Honestly, if they eliminated the minimum wage, you would see many jobs open up. For instance, my friend worked under the table at a construction site, making probably not even half min wage, but all his job was to do is spend the night at a construction site as a presence to prevent vandalism and theft. He worked his normal job, and just came to spend the night in the trailer. No duty to actually guard but to call the cops if he heard anything. Some good times were had there that summer. We came up there with our AR's and crap just wishing someone would come try to do something. lol
- To pay someone even min wage would be too costly. My friend didn't have to work, just be there, and got an extra 150 a week. At $7.25/hr over a period of 5 days a week would be about $300 per week, it would be cheaper to just buy more insurance.

[Mr Beer]

Not necessarily, it could also just mean less (but still healthy) corporate profits. As the graph shows, the gap between corporate profits and wages is rising, and if that trend continues, we're eventually reverting into the serf system.

The idea of a company used to be that it would benefit all employees. Not equally of course, since some are more valuable than others, however, it seems to be evolving into feudalism, where large shareholders and the executive board are the vassals, and everyone else is a serf.

This isn't true for all companies, its certainly not true where I work, where profits are high and people are paid well, but it is increasingly true in many companies.

Yep, this.

So we have this hag in Australia called Gina Rinehart, who is an enormously wealthy mining magnate. She was recently pissing and moaning about the minimum wage being too high and how the hoi polloi should waste less money on smoking and drinking - a bit crass for a women who inherited her vast wealth and makes millions of dollars every day just by breathing. I guess she wants another gold plated yacht but God forbid her serfs should go out and get pissed on Friday night.

[Tekkendo]

Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be temporary jobs. Not something to make a living on. If we are to help people, it is to get them to move up from minimum wage jobs, AND not to reward them by making minium achievement pay well.


You have businesses struggling to find qualified skill labors...

eg


http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...rican-business

http://www.olmis.org/olmisj/ArticleR...temid=00008285


http://www.wcvb.com/money/many-massa...rkers/25131122

[Stizzel]

Yep, this.

So we have this hag in Australia called Gina Rinehart, who is an enormously wealthy mining magnate. She was recently pissing and moaning about the minimum wage being too high and how the hoi polloi should waste less money on smoking and drinking - a bit crass for a women who inherited her vast wealth and makes millions of dollars every day just by breathing. I guess she wants another gold plated yacht but God forbid her serfs should go out and get pissed on Friday night.

I grew up poor and have had to work for every dollar I have and I agree with her

[IronRooster2]

aren't we literally a few $$/hour from all of those fast food workers being replaced with robots?

No not really. We've been long past that point for a long time now. The problem has been a number of issues on the tech side:

* Robots to date have been large, expensive single purpose devices. Such as the welding arms in a car plant or Momentum Machine's burger vending prototypes. When one breaks down, it's difficult to get something in there to replace it. That's been slowly changing, such as the porter bots in warehouses that fetch orders for people. It's not like a human lifts up stuff in a Amazon or Netflix warehouse.

* Human incompetence. Even when the self check out kiosk works flawlessly, you have to assume the worst case when it comes to your customers.

The holy grail is a general purpose robot, such as how the general purpose computer lets you do so many different things. The first generation of these I guess would be Baxter:



1/10th the speed of a human, $10,000 to buy, can work 24/7, doesn't get paid, no benefits, no commute, $0.05 in electricity per hour (or $0.00 if we ever get those Thorium reactors built) - minimum wage has **** all impact on automation. Automation is always orders of magnitude better than a human if you can do it.

There's a douchey youtube video that's been making the rounds that goes into this into more detail.

tldr: If Nixon (an enemy of science) hadn't nixed Thorium reactors back in the day, and we adopted a citizen's dividend like Alaska has on its oil, then we could actually live in the beginning of a Star Trek-esque utopia. Maybe.

Remember when the Nixon administration set back our Manned Mars Space Mission by decades with that shuttle debacle? Geez..

The Feds have been raising the minimum wage longer than I've been alive.

Howse' that worked out so far?

We haven't had people eating their own poop, collapse of the country, or ten year olds prostituting themselves en masse since FDR implemented it, so pretty fuking good by any objective measure.

The past was really, really bad guys. We changed things for a reason.

Also: lol at how opponents of it attacked it for being "socialist" back then. People never change, do they.

[Stizzel]

Oh look another liberal supporting a stupid economic idea with strawman arguments

[Enso]

The argument is explained in detail in these vids:





Not saying he's right, but not saying he is not right either because what he says makes sense. Problem is, how do you get greedy people who only care about money to let go of their money in order to let the money redistribute itself back to them.

The main weakness to this point of view though, in my estimation, would be rampant consumerism. That is part of the problem we have in our society is rampant consumerism. What we really need is a more conservative mindset with spending our money on things we actually need...not just falling for advertising and and buying things we are tricked into thinking we need. Thus, due to strain on supply...prices will rise, ie inflation....and also resources may become scarce.

[thegr8t]

Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be temporary jobs. Not something to make a living on.

I see this claim repeated over and over.... is this true? What was the initial purpose of the minimum wage?

[Stizzel]

The argument is explained in detail in these vids:





Not saying he's right, but not saying he is not right either because what he says makes sense. Problem is, how do you get greedy people who only care about money to let go of their money in order to let the money redistribute itself back to them.

The main weakness to this point of view though, in my estimation, would be rampant consumerism. That is part of the problem we have in our society is rampant consumerism. What we really need is a more conservative mindset with spending our money on things we actually need...not just falling for advertising and and buying things we are tricked into thinking we need. Thus, due to strain on supply...prices will rise, ie inflation....and also resources may become scarce.

The easiest way to make sure money is not wasted is to stop giving it to bureaucrats.

I see this claim repeated over and over.... is this true? What was the initial purpose of the minimum wage?

The first minimum wage laws were lobbied for by unions that wanted to stop black workers from competing with them.

[thegr8t]

The first minimum wage laws were lobbied for by unions that wanted to stop black workers from competing with them.

What do you mean competing with them? In the sense that they were giving away their labour in exchange for peanuts? lel

[Stizzel]

What do you mean competing with them? In the sense that they were giving away their labour in exchange for peanuts? lel

Yes.

Blacks were willing to work cheaper, and that was a problem for unions because they were losing jobs. Vested money interests hate cheap labor because they hate competition. So people trying to join the work force get priced out. You can see that now as well by looking at youth unemployment rates.

[Mulyark]

Minimum wages shut down small businesses.

I myself would work for less than the minimum wage no problem if I really had to.

It isn't about giving people a minimum wage, it is about favouring massive corporations.

Guess who probably lobbied the Government for a minimum wage? The public might have appeared to have been the ones demanding it but thats just the "escape valve" to the lie.

This also breaks up communities because all the smaller shops just close. What do we have left now? Hairdressers, thats about the only thing left where a guy goes in and chats about the community and others he shares it with.

Its not just minimum wage, here they are even taking all the phone boxes away from the countryside to force people into cities more. No one can just live peacefully somewhere anymore. Look at Monsanto and the GM thing, putting pressure on farmers, its all orchestrated, all the same people own all those big corporations along with the banking system, education system, media and any other sphere of influence.

The mad thing is they have planned this all along going back centuries, perhaps even thousands of years, it is their wet dream to eradicate all forms of creativity or individuality.

Big businesses are much better able to cope with a jump in the minimum wage which explains why they don't lobby against it. Small businesses can get crushed by the higher fixed costs but I doubt the corporate giants even care about them. What they do care about is taxes which is why we're about to see a slew of inversions.

As for Canada, it's a resource-dependent economy. Areas that don't have massive oil and gas deposits are mired in slow growth and higher unemployment.

[IronRooster2]

What was the initial purpose of the minimum wage?

To placate the masses just enough to keep from going full blown communist.

The fear of commies back then was very real instead of the fantasy it is today. Like I said; Kids were selling themselves to feed their families. It was ****ing awful, and there's people that want to go back to that.

[Stizzel]

To placate the masses just enough to keep from going full blown communist.

The fear of commies back then was very real instead of the fantasy it is today. Like I said; Kids were selling themselves to feed their families. It was ****ing awful, and there's people that want to go back to that.

ITT liberals think minimum wage laws ended prostitution

[Jasonw1178]

To placate the masses just enough to keep from going full blown communist.

The fear of commies back then was very real instead of the fantasy it is today. Like I said; Kids were selling themselves to feed their families. It was ****ing awful, and there's people that want to go back to that.

Communism has a new name and a new face. It's called EQUALITY. In some ways it's worse. Communism is just flat out everyone gets the same. Equality is a system of manipulation in which there really isnt anything equal at all.

[thegr8t]

To placate the masses just enough to keep from going full blown communist.

The fear of commies back then was very real instead of the fantasy it is today. Like I said; Kids were selling themselves to feed their families. It was ****ing awful, and there's people that want to go back to that.

ITT liberals think minimum wage laws ended prostitution

So which one is it?

No offense, but both stances seem tinted with biased undertones.

[GermanBB]

He didn't lie, it bumps the pay wage everywhere........ it's just that the action creates a temporary scenario in which those at the bottom are given a small increase in spending power AT THE EXPENSE of ALL MIDDLE CLASS (above minimum wage) whom receive no pay increase, but my pay the higher prices for goods/service. The company's have factored in the price increases before they enact the wage increase.. they're prepared, the middle class is the one fcked.

I want a merit nation. I believe the only way forward is to become a merit nation. To find success must require volunteerism.. otherwise you elevate that which holds back the high quality. We need a simple federal law forbidding the collective govt assistance $amount to EVER,EVER,EVER exceed minimum wage. States refusing should simply be restricted to what the sub-minimum-wage would entail.

[leafs43]

All I get from libs in this thread is...."Poor people deserve iphone 6's too!"

[IronRooster2]

So which one is it?

No offense, but both stances seem tinted with biased undertones.

Are you really gonna believe the guy advocating a soft systematic genocide by radically changing something that's endured for over 70 years now? They had this figured out hundreds of years ago:

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

We'd be full blown commie long ago if we hadn't dragged the Democratic party into doing something with chains. (The FDR era did a massive amount of reform across the board to the system, but they nationalized very little.) If history has taught us anything, that will be also be how we'll get out of the next great depression. Technology only ever improves, the human:job ratio only ever decreases.

It's depressing that it's so obvious, but try to be surprised when we're seriously talking about a universal socialist citizen's dividend like Alaska has with its oil 60 years from now.

the middle class is the one fcked.

It sure does blow when the price of bread or whatever goes up 2%, but not every industry has 100% of their workforce on minimum wage. If the middle class can't handle a 2% increase in the cost of a big mac, they are by definition not middle class.

[CBRob]

All I get from libs in this thread is...."Poor people deserve iphone 6's too!"

Yea, cause $20,000 a year is rollin' in some serious dough.