I've started doing a lot of research on the Palestinian conflict in the middle east and I'm struggling to understand something... Why is there so much support for Israel?
To me they clearly committed acts of terrorism against Palestine, yet all I hear about is how America is pro-israel and that they're trying to negotiate peace. But is it really peace if you rape someone, steal their apartment, and then try to settle with them by giving a couch back?
Curious to hear a concise, educated, argument for why Hamas are the "bad guys" in the conflict and Israel should be supported.
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Thread: Pro-Israeli argument
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03-31-2014, 01:49 PM #1
Pro-Israeli argument
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03-31-2014, 01:54 PM #2
They have a very powerful lobby and Israel is supportive to the west's endeavors of global hegemony.
Resistance groups such as Palestinians Islamic Jihad and Hamas are seen as the bad guy and often labeled as a terrorist organization (usually by the same pro-Israeli nations like the US, UK, France etc.) because they don't serve the aforementioned agenda. Basically speaking the US decides which armed resistance movements are legitimate and which aren't. This is precisely why groups like Ahrar ash-Sham in Syria are not labeled as terrorists even though they are founded by al Qaeda veterans, like Abu Khaled al Suri who fought against America in Afghanistan 2001-present but more moderate group like, say, the Popular Resistance Committees in Gaza are considered terrorists.
This so called terrorism is a by-product of Occupation. Wherever there are foreign invaders or foreign occupiers there will be armed struggles of liberation. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.Last edited by PSUbrah; 03-31-2014 at 02:23 PM.
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03-31-2014, 01:58 PM #3
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03-31-2014, 01:58 PM #4
So in other words you don't think that it matters what is the proper solution to the conflict, what's more important is political influence and what benefits US ambition?
I don't see how Palestine interferes with hegemony, I don't really know a lot about it or global economics but is this your way of saying that Israel plans to empower America?
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03-31-2014, 02:00 PM #5
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03-31-2014, 02:00 PM #6
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03-31-2014, 02:00 PM #7
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03-31-2014, 02:03 PM #8
Precisely brah. Peace is not what the West is after "WHEN IT DOES NOT SERVE ITS AGENDA". Now that the US is having peace talks with Iran, Obama and Kerry are calling for peace deals to shut Israel up from their anti-Iranian agenda. These talks Kerry is pushing is not for the Palestinians but for the US hegemony structure to continue. In the end they do help so Palestinians are grateful and are supportive but they know the US has ulterior motives.
edit: also read my edit in my above post on Hamas.
Israeli imperialism and American imperialism go hand i hand. The Israeli government and US government brought many ruthless dictators like Idi Amin to power and overthrew many other anti-Western African leaders for their own imperialist desires. Why would the US want to scrap a partner in Crime?Last edited by PSUbrah; 03-31-2014 at 02:09 PM.
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03-31-2014, 02:03 PM #9
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03-31-2014, 02:07 PM #10
Is it wrong though to want US hegemony? To me it seems that the world economies are not very evenly distributed at all. If US falls then China will rise.
Are there no legitimate reasons to support Israel other than acknowledging rockets and jihad? I don't think that those acts of violence on their own hold up an argument.
edit: to be concise, if US economy truly falls, the entire world will suffer, causing issues globally; though perhaps that'd hurt china the most as I heard they're heavily invested in the US economy
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03-31-2014, 02:10 PM #11
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03-31-2014, 02:12 PM #12
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03-31-2014, 02:14 PM #13
I'm not saying its a bad thing. There are many great things the US has done but this is a key detail in why the West supports Israel.
Think about it this way the US and Saudi Arabia are staunch allies and as result the their agendas are intertwined. The Saudis have a AWFUL human rights record but we continue to associate with them because we have common ambitions and they offer us a strategic base in a valuable region. This one of many reasons why we 'love' Israel. If Israel did not offer us anything and they refused to play ball like Iran or Sudan while the Palestinians were sportive of us the world would be largely anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian.
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03-31-2014, 02:16 PM #14
Blowing yourself up and killing innocent civilians because you think that will get you into heaven isn't a form of religious extremism?
You're clearly biased on the topic and attempting to troll us be playing stupid
There was no foreign invasion.
Do you consider India being divided into two Muslim countries (Pakistan + Bangladesh) as being a form of foreign invasion? Keep in mind that many Hindus lost their home and were forced to move.
Also, what are your thoughts on the Cyprus situation? Do you support Turkey invading Cyprus, kicking out Christians from northern Cyprus, and establishing a new Muslim country? Guess you'd be fine with Greek Cypriots blowing up civilians in pizzaerias(●̃)
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03-31-2014, 02:17 PM #15
INB4 bb.com IDF crew obliterates thread.
I'm not getting into a pointless circular debate with the IDF, read Illan Pape, Chomsky, Finkelstein for some interesting thoughts on the matter.
http://normanfinkelstein.com/
http://www.chomsky.info/articles.htmretired poster
Only miscs for Genova threads crew.
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03-31-2014, 02:18 PM #16
Once again you are correct! You see like a very educated person, unlike others here. Hamas would still exist even if Islam did not exist. Prior to the advent of global Islamism in the 70's led by the work of Sayed Qutb, Yusuf Abdullah Azzam and Ayatollah Khomeini militant movements were largely SECULAR and NATIONALISTIC. Actually what happened was Israel fostered Islamism in Palestine because it is a hell of a lot easier to demonize a so called "religiously fanatical" group than a socialist or leftist brigade.
I apologize for spelling, I'm on my phone )Last edited by PSUbrah; 04-01-2014 at 12:42 PM.
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03-31-2014, 02:23 PM #17
Look son...
To understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict you have to go back to the roots of the Israeli state, why it was founded and why its being supported.
Things in this world have nothing to do with "protecting human rights" or "spreading freedom".
Sorry to burst your bubble but USA is not fighting for that. Geopolitics don't work that way.
Other user pretty much nailed it with the lobbies. It's actually interesting to note that historically USA & Israel were originally not that close.
USA actually initially opposed Israel and supported the Arabs and Israel's biggest ally was France.
The Jewish/Zionist lobbies have been pushing hard and through various organizations (ADL) have endoctrinated the neocon masses into supporting Israel as an outpost of "Freedom and Justice and everything that is Good in this world", so this is where we are at in 2014.
In realpolitik terms I think Israel is more of a thorn in the side of American geopolitics than anything useful.
But really American geopolitics have shifted from being pragmatic to the George W Bush era of abstract notions such as "fighting terrorism" (which really translates to killing as many arabs as possible and alienating the entire middle east).
Meanwhile Russia, China, and other pragmatic states are advancing their interests while USA "fights terror" (which it originally created back in the day when they funded Jihadis to fight the communists worldwide).
I dont know...
In long run I see USA divorcing itself from Israel, if USA becomes pragmatic again.
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03-31-2014, 02:24 PM #18
The india pakistan comparison isn't really relevant, since in that case it was a population transfer, whereas in the case of Israel it was a foreign invasion (yes, I know some jews lived in present day Israel before 1947, but the bulk of the population immigrated after).
If today Turkey invaded south cyprus to establish a muslim state I would support 100% the cypriot liberation movements, although I would obviously prefer if they were peaceful.
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03-31-2014, 02:32 PM #19
Really millions of Hindus being kicked out of their homes and Indian territory being used to create two Muslim countries is simply a "population transfer" but British territory (formerly owned by the Ottomans) ceded to the United Nations that was divided on ethnic and religious lines (to accommodate both populations) is a foreign invasion, lmao.
You do realize that the entire middle east was basically divided on ethnic and religious lines in the last century?
The difference is that Muslims don't want to give up territory that they view as "Muslim land" and they don't want to lose the holy land.
If today Turkey invaded south cyprus to establish a muslim state I would support 100% the cypriot liberation movements, although I would obviously prefer if they were peaceful.
Why don't you and your fellow Anti-Zionist brothers care about the Christian Cypriots that were ethnically cleansed and still have their land occupied to this day?(●̃)
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03-31-2014, 02:32 PM #20
OP I'm not sure if you are really curious, or trying to make a statement, since you already determined that the Palestinians are the 'good' side here. But in case you truly are curious about the truth, then I suggest you get your facts straight, and you should take a couple of minutes to watch the following vids:
now cutting
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03-31-2014, 02:42 PM #21
Don't forget that millions of muslims were kicked out of the hindu areas too. Hence the term "population transfer"
Yes, if the british empire had carved out a piece of the indian subcontinent and given it to chinese immigrants then that would also be a foreign invasion.
Except for the state of Israel, which is why it sticks out as a sore thumb. It is unnatural.
That seems reasonable.
Yes that was terrible. Although you could justify it by pointing the out the fact that Cyprus had just undergone a coup d'tat and that a Greek nationalist military junta had claimed power, threatening the thousands of turkish cypriots, natives of cyprus that you conveniently forgot to mention. Although I completely agree that the subsequent occupation is unjustifiable.
Because there aren't any turkish lobbyists in France who constantly annoy me.Last edited by mbala; 03-31-2014 at 02:44 PM.
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03-31-2014, 02:58 PM #22
Wait, so you support population transfers?
You do realize that almost the entire Jewish population in the middle-east was transferred to Israel after they were forcibly kicked out of their homes and had their property confiscated by Muslims
See: Jewish Exodus from Arab and Muslim Countries
Guess you're now a fellow Zionist!! Happy to hear it man.
(I'm seriously laughing at how you're desperately trying to justify millions of Hindus losing their home and property, while their territory was confiscated to create two Muslim countries in historically Indian land, LMAO)
Yes, if the british empire had carved out a piece of the indian subcontinent and given it to chinese immigrants then that would also be a foreign invasion.
Except for the state of Israel, which is why it sticks out as a sore thumb. It is unnatural.
Yes that was terrible. Although you could justify it by pointing the out the fact that Cyprus had just undergone a coup d'tat and that a Greek nationalist military junta had claimed power, threatening the thousands of turkish cypriots, natives of cyprus that you conveniently forgot to mention. Although I completely agree that the subsequent occupation is unjustifiable.
When can we see you start making some threads about about this travesty?
If Christians started to blow up pizzerias and killed innocent people, would you support that?
Because there aren't any turkish lobbyists in France who constantly annoy me.(●̃)
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03-31-2014, 03:00 PM #23
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03-31-2014, 03:18 PM #24
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03-31-2014, 03:22 PM #25
If it means we can avoid bloodshed, then yes. I don't believe in multiculturalism.
You do realize that almost the entire Jewish population in the middle-east was transferred to Israel after they were forcibly kicked out of their homes and had their property confiscated by Muslims
See: Jewish Exodus from Arab and Muslim Countries
[/QUOTE]
Half the jews in Israel have ashkenazi ancestors, who did not live in muslim countries.
Anyway that isn't really a valid point since the expulsion of jews from muslim countries was a response to the creation of Israel! If Israel had never been created jews would never have been kicked out.
You're projecting.
I'm not justifying anything. I'm just pointing out that millions of muslims were also displaced.
Also you might want to brush up your history a bit. The indian subcontinent was ruled by various mulim sultanates (and a few hindu kingdoms) for the near entirety of the second millenia. Most people living in the Bengal and present-day Pakistan were muslims. There was no "India". India is as much a country as Europe is.
AFAIK palestine only belonged to the british from the end of WW1 to the creation of Israel. Anyway, the muslims were an overwhelming majority, creating a jewish state would have been as ridiculous as creating a jewish state in Russia.(inb4 jewish autonomous oblast)
You seem to be a proponent of the right of victors. I'm guessing you vew favorably the occupation of Poland by Nazi germany during WW2. After all, they won 'fair and square', why did the butthurt poles keep on complaining?
It is far far less brutal than the Israeli occupation of palestine.
I don't really care. I wouldn't really care for the Israeli palestinian conflict either if it were not for jews in my country actively promoting pro-Israeli propaganda.
No, I'm a pacifist (inb4 nazi pacifist lelelelel), I don't support anybody getting blown up, especially not civilians. However, I wouldn't call them "terrorists", and I would condemn equally if not more the turkish occupation which triggered this armed resistance.
Yeah, I already knew that there are millions of morons in the USA.
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03-31-2014, 03:30 PM #26
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03-31-2014, 03:47 PM #27
Great man. If you don't believe in multiculturalism that means you support people of different backgrounds having their own countries. Surely you support Israel in that case (which is a Jewish homeland)!!
Glad to see you're a fellow Zionist man.
Half the jews in Israel have ashkenazi ancestors, who did not live in muslim countries.
Anyway that isn't really a valid point since the expulsion of jews from muslim countries was a response to the creation of Israel! If Israel had never been created jews would never have been kicked out.
I'm not justifying anything. I'm just pointing out that millions of muslims were also displaced.
Also you might want to brush up your history a bit. The indian subcontinent was ruled by various mulim sultanates (and a few hindu kingdoms) for the near entirety of the second millenia. Most people living in the Bengal and present-day Pakistan were muslims. There was no "India". India is as much a country as Europe is.
Your liberal brothers keep forgetting about
AFAIK palestine only belonged to the british from the end of WW1 to the creation of Israel. Anyway, the muslims were an overwhelming majority, creating a jewish state would have been as ridiculous as creating a jewish state in Russia.(inb4 jewish autonomous oblast)
You seem to be a proponent of the right of victors. I'm guessing you vew favorably the occupation of Poland by Nazi germany during WW2. After all, they won 'fair and square', why did the butthurt poles keep on complaining?
There was never a state of Palestine. By the 1940's when countries were being created after Britain gave up land transferred to them by the Ottoman's, the territory was divided on ethnic lines, and the Jews and Arabs both got some land (like what happened in most of the middle-east)
It is far far less brutal than the Israeli occupation of palestine.
I don't really care. I wouldn't really care for the Israeli palestinian conflict either if it were not for jews in my country actively promoting pro-Israeli propaganda.
No, I'm a pacifist (inb4 nazi pacifist lelelelel), I don't support anybody getting blown up, especially not civilians. However, I wouldn't call them "terrorists", and I would condemn equally if not more the turkish occupation which triggered this armed resistance.
Conditions would improve for the Palestinians and they can maybe move forward once they stop trying to drive out the Jews.(●̃)
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03-31-2014, 04:24 PM #28
1. Israel is for a 2 state solution.
Hamas is not.
2. Israel does not target civilians to kill
Hamas does.
3. Israel gives Arab citizens same rights as Jews
Hamas wants to kill Jews.
4. Israel believes in freedom of speech
Hamas does not.
5. Israel believes in freedom of the press
Hamas does not.
6. Israel teaches its children to become scientists
Hamas teaches its children to become suicide bombers.
7. Israel is a country recognized by the Western world
Hamas is a terrorist organization recognized by the Western world
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03-31-2014, 04:36 PM #29
First I.d like to say I in no way suport hamas and I view them as a bad group but at the same time I am not a brainwashed fool who can't think critically.
1. Wrong. Hamas's leadership has drifted remarkably from their charter following Israel killing off their core leadership including Yassin. They support a two state solution so as long as Israels pulls out of West Bank, Gaza, Shebaa Farms, and Golan. Unlike other groups Hamas believes in militaristic liberation as opposed topeaceful protest.
2. Wrong. Hamas does not want to kill Jews. They have for one thing as I said ceased the use of militancy against civilians with the INTENTION of killing civilians. Any civilians that die are merely collateral damage and are minimalistic compared to Israel's abuse of the term. There has not been a single suicide bomber since before 2005 or so.
3. *Same as above.
4. Believing in free speech is not a reason not support a group as a MEANS and not as an END. Not believing in FOS is also not a reason to label a group a 'terrorist.'
5. *See above. And let us not act like Israel truly believes in Freedom of press either.
6. Becoming a scientist is not as feasible in Gaza. As you now with the siege and all. If in fact this was the case we'd be seeing many suicide attacks which we don't.
7. Far more countries view Hamas as a legitimate group like Russia, China, Syria, Iran, Venezuela, etc. In fact less than 10 do not view them as such. Why should the western world have a monopoly on the labeling of terror.
Lastly people hardly like Hamas anymore except for random hipster western Palestinian activists. Even Gazans view them as utter crap. There time will be up soon and another more educated group will come to power hopefully.Last edited by PSUbrah; 03-31-2014 at 04:52 PM.
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03-31-2014, 04:48 PM #30
Israel is not leaving their home land and neighbouring arabs cant take it by force (as much as they try)
so hammas is the baddy because instead of acknowledging this and making there country the best it can like israel does. it teaches children how to become suicide bombers and forces death on there own innocent people by harassing israel with rockets and other terrorist attacks.Vedgimite every day crew
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