Post Workout Insulin Spike using Artificial Sugars?

[strongerdefence]

I apologize in advance if this is totally idiotic. Try not to kill me <3
Notes about myself: 19 y.o female: aim: fat loss while retaining muscle via working out

There has been a study that shows that ingestion of essential amino acids within 1 hour PW elicits "an anabolic response from muscle after exercise" i.e. muscle building.

So in order to be a cheater because I like to take advantage of my PW decreased ghrelin and increased peptide YY -satiating hormones- I drink BCAAs PW instead (~either no or up to 40 calories/10g)

However, I also have to acknowledge that it is optimal to spike your insulin levels in order to drive amino acids into muscles a create a protein sparing effect.

Now...since people are claiming artificial sugars are causing insulin spikes without glucose delivery which is harmful...then could I apply this?
and instead consume something with artificial sugar in it to spike my insulin levels and get said "drive amino acids into muscles" effect without the high gi food?


I know I'm silly by trying to avoid like 200 calories..but I'm curious.

Thankyou!

P.S. I initially provided links of all the studies as evidence for my statements but apparently I'm a noob and "post count must be 50 or greater to allow me to post links".

[WonderPug]

FYI: If you do absolute none of that stuff and simply eat when hungry and when it's convenient, with rational daily intake, you'll get at least equal or better results than playing around with silly supplements that are marketed based on misstatements about physiology let alone using artificial sweeteners to try to alter serum insulin levels.


P.S. Protein alone, without a single gram of CHO, is sufficiently insulinotropic to optimize nutrient shuttling and, by the way, that "anabolic window" you're chasing lasts about 24 hours post workout.

[strongerdefence]

FYI: If you do absolute none of that stuff and simply eat when hungry and when it's convenient, with rational daily intake, you'll get at least equal or better results than playing around with silly supplements that are marketed based on misstatements about physiology let alone using artificial sweeteners to try to alter serum insulin levels.

Thanks so much WonderPlug,

I already tried the whole "eat when hungry" stuff.. I have had disordered eating in the past so no longer know what real hunger is..I literally can stop eating for days and not notice it except for increased rate of walking into things or I can eat all day long and still feel "hungry".
So I'm taking another approach: treat myself like one of the science experiments I do at uni. Psychological state will have to catchup later I'm tired of waiting for it.

Thanks for your advice about supplements, if I was studying marketing maybe I wouldn't fall for the contrived data but right now I'm keen on my BCAAs plus they taste good haha

[WonderPug]

Thanks for your advice about supplements, if I was studying marketing maybe I wouldn't fall for the contrived data but right now I'm keen on my BCAAs plus they taste good haha

FYI: Unless your protein intake is (well) below 70 grams per day, your food contains more than enough BCAA's to optimize outcomes.

Now if you want to drink a BCAA supplement just because you like the taste, than that's fine, but just know that it will not provide any special benefits.

[strongerdefence]

P.S. Protein alone, without a single gram of CHO, is sufficiently insulinotropic to optimize nutrient shuttling and, by the way, that "anabolic window" you're chasing lasts about 24 hours post workout.

Could the "extra" insulin from artificial sugar hasten its journey to muscles and maybe elevate this shuttling for longer?

Anabolic window: But..but..the studies? There was actually a study (completed at a university in my city surprisingly) where people gained significantly more muscle mass with feeding around workout period rather than 5 hours before/after workout suggesting an anabolic window.

[snorkelman]

you are completely wasting your energy by pursuing this entire line of concentration.

Artificial sugars post-workout so you can drive aminos to the muscles? Are you training in a fasted state? What does your pre-workout nutrition look like (you ingesting any protein? If yes, what and how many minutes before your training, and how long is your training?)

[strongerdefence]

you are completely wasting your energy by pursuing this entire line of concentration.

Artificial sugars post-workout so you can drive aminos to the muscles? Are you training in a fasted state? What does your pre-workout nutrition look like (you ingesting any protein? If yes, what and how many minutes before your training, and how long is your training?)

Okay thanks. I get curious about details.
Yeah training fasted. Length is about 45mins weight training + cycling 1 hour

[snorkelman]

Yeah training fasted.

so, just for clarification, you are training in the morning, such as after something like a 10 hour fast, correct?

Also, do you take any type of pre-workout product (such as BCAAs?)

[lee__d]

Thanks so much WonderPlug,

I already tried the whole "eat when hungry" stuff.. I have had disordered eating in the past so no longer know what real hunger is..I literally can stop eating for days and not notice it except for increased rate of walking into things or I can eat all day long and still feel "hungry".

You can still have a plan and have calorie and macro targets. Pug merely meant you don't have to over think timing your meals.

[strongerdefence]

so, just for clarification, you are training in the morning, such as after something like a 10 hour fast, correct?

Also, do you take any type of pre-workout product (such as BCAAs?)

Yep, you are correct. Generally, no. On the odd occasion BCAAs if I'm feeling low energy.

[strongerdefence]

You can still have a plan and have calorie and macro targets. Pug merely meant you don't have to over think timing your meals.

Ohh right...cheers

[snorkelman]

The reason I indicated you are wasting your energy on this is not changed after seeing your responses. Unless you are exercising at a high intensity (>70% V O2max) then there really isn't any significant increase in net loss of amino acids during dynamic exercise (such that you need to immediately replace them via free form BCAAs immediately after a workout). So, you don't need to go out of your way to try and speed up the uptake of bcaas. Heck, even though you train in a fasted state, you don't even need bcaas over whey, as I assume you are trying to do it in an attempt to rush the aminos to the muscles. Did you realize that in general, after resistance exercise alone, you will have the rate of mixed muscle protein synthesis increase?

See, lots of people read a study and jump to conclusions, but even when a study is used by a supplement company to make claims about the needs of bcaas, you need to realize that there is a big difference between acute impacts and impacts over time.

[cls91]

Thanks so much WonderPlug,

I already tried the whole "eat when hungry" stuff.. I have had disordered eating in the past so no longer know what real hunger is..I literally can stop eating for days and not notice it except for increased rate of walking into things or I can eat all day long and still feel "hungry".
So I'm taking another approach: treat myself like one of the science experiments I do at uni. Psychological state will have to catchup later I'm tired of waiting for it.

Thanks for your advice about supplements, if I was studying marketing maybe I wouldn't fall for the contrived data but right now I'm keen on my BCAAs plus they taste good haha

Thanks for the lol


But seriously, there's some good information in here OP, listen to their advice.

[WonderPug]

Unless you are exercising at a high intensity (>70% V O2max) then there really isn't any significant increase in net loss of amino acids during dynamic exercise (such that you need to immediately replace them via free form BCAAs immediately after a workout)..

I'd add a protracted time-period above 70% VO2 Max, as burst expenditures of relatively short total duration would have little relevance.

Also, I'd add that RQ at the relevant % VO2 Max is an important variable too, as it might imply a lower or higher threshold of average/sustained energy output where one might start benefiting from dietary optimizations, with lower RQ requiring less tweaking.

[strongerdefence]

I'd add a protracted time-period above 70% VO2 Max, as burst expenditures of relatively short total duration would have little relevance.

Also, I'd add that RQ at the relevant % VO2 Max is an important variable too, as it might imply a lower or higher threshold of average/sustained energy output where one might start benefiting from dietary optimizations, with lower RQ requiring less tweaking.

Oh...I'm so confused now. Post workout meals are completely unnecessary then unless you're something like a marathon runner?

I keep reading studies that suggest PW nutrition favours the protein synthesis vs. breakdown balance in resistance training.

[strongerdefence]

Heck, even though you train in a fasted state, you don't even need bcaas over whey, as I assume you are trying to do it in an attempt to rush the aminos to the muscles. Did you realize that in general, after resistance exercise alone, you will have the rate of mixed muscle protein synthesis increase?

oh, I'm mainly doing fasted training and intake of BCAAs to comply with my intermittent fasting.

but there are studies indicating intake within 1-2 hours increases muscle built compared to a 5 hour waiting period..i.e. faster absorption=build more muscle regardless of the already increased rate protein synthesis?

By the way, thanks so much for your help. Also, I didn't realise that at all.. I thought there was a negative balance after resistance exercise!

[WonderPug]

^^^ All that stuff is basically misinformation to trick the naive and the gullible into wasting money on supplements,

[shesprints]

I agree with WonderPug. I also have a history of disordered eating and I understand how difficult it can be to figure out hunger signals. So the first thing I would suggest is to practice spacing out your meals at regular intervals for a few days. Time them intelligently and eat every 3-4 hours but NOT in between; eat reasonable portions according to your meal plan and make certain to have some carbs (40g? depends on your macros) in the pre- and post-workout meals. Track your hunger. After a few days or ideally a couple of weeks, look at the times when you get most hungry and play with things from there.

Eating 'all day' CAN make you hungrier because your digestive system is constantly stimulated. But eating too infrequently makes you too hungry and more inclined to overeat when you do eat. I know both strategies can work for some people, but for people with a disordered history it might be more difficult.

Oh, and for me cutting OUT artificial sweeteners did wonders for controllig my appetite and helping me to recognize genuine hunger cues. Don't try to trick your body and your body won't try to trick you.

[x-ray vision]

but there are studies indicating intake within 1-2 hours increases muscle built compared to a 5 hour waiting period..i.e. faster absorption=build more muscle regardless of the already increased rate protein synthesis?

Are you asking if such studies exist or claiming that they do? It seems like you made a statement, yet it ended with a question mark. If you're saying such studies exist, I'd be interested in seeing them.

ETA: I'm not asking about studies that show an increased rate of protein synthesis, as you said regardless of that. I'm asking for studies that show "increases muscle built."

[strongerdefence]

Are you asking if such studies exist or claiming that they do? It seems like you made a statement, yet it ended with a question mark. If you're saying such studies exist, I'd be interested in seeing them.

ETA: I'm not asking about studies that show an increased rate of protein synthesis, as you said regardless of that. I'm asking for studies that show "increases muscle built."

Since I am not allowed to link anything do a google search for the "Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy" its a study completed at Victoria University in Melbourne, Australia.

and this one measures the difference between immediate consumption and 2 hour later consumption in elderly men
"Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans."

[strongerdefence]

I agree with WonderPug. I also have a history of disordered eating and I understand how difficult it can be to figure out hunger signals. So the first thing I would suggest is to practice spacing out your meals at regular intervals for a few days. Time them intelligently and eat every 3-4 hours but NOT in between; eat reasonable portions according to your meal plan and make certain to have some carbs (40g? depends on your macros) in the pre- and post-workout meals. Track your hunger. After a few days or ideally a couple of weeks, look at the times when you get most hungry and play with things from there.

Eating 'all day' CAN make you hungrier because your digestive system is constantly stimulated. But eating too infrequently makes you too hungry and more inclined to overeat when you do eat. I know both strategies can work for some people, but for people with a disordered history it might be more difficult.

Oh, and for me cutting OUT artificial sweeteners did wonders for controllig my appetite and helping me to recognize genuine hunger cues. Don't try to trick your body and your body won't try to trick you.

Thankyou for your help. I have experimented with eating completely "clean" as in nothing packaged and I felt it made it worse...I think my body wants my fat set point to be much higher than I will allow it so I'm manipulating it with how I eat nowadays.


On another note..why on earth has my avatar picture become a photo of a guy taking a selfie?