Manual vs DCT

[arekieh]

Thoughts on Manual vs DCT?

Seriously getting depressed that most cars are going DCT with no option for manual. They almost did it for the F10 M5 and again for the M3/M4. Lambos and Ferraris are DCT only, 911 GT3's are PDK only.

Makes me sad, when I can finally afford the car(s) I want I'm going to have to buy them 5-6 years old to get them in manual. Really hope this trend changes soon.


I understand DCT for track purposes, they are faster. But for enjoyment manual > all. Also I don't understand how people cry about driving manual in traffic. DD a manual G35 with aftermarket JWT clutch and 14lb single mass flywheel. Clutch is extremely heavy and the light flywheel isn't very forgiving. Bumper to bumper 30 min commute every morning and I have zero problems. Not once have I thought "I wish I was driving an auto right now".

[yourname2221]

The people who buy those cars dont usually buy them for there track prowess or under the guise that manuals are more fun than autos. To them its all about bragging rights and whatever looks best and for those types of people (the majority) the ease of driving an auto usually goes with that.

[BakeryMaster]

Many people who can actually afford the cars you listed are owned by people who buy them for the status. Like yourname2221 said most people want something that looks good, is easy to drive and that they can brag about to their friends with. "My ferrari does 0-60 in 3 secs" or whatever.

People who are looking to buy a car for the sake of the driving experience in the high end market makes up a very small percentage of the people that own those cars. Cars like the GT3 come in PDK because that car in particular is often owned by people who do track their cars and ARE looking for the fastest lap times. I think that it will be a while still untill all manuals are dead in the enthusiast market.

Cars like the M3 still have a large portion of their cars sold as manuals. I wouldnt be suprised if they made the DCT the standard transmission soon, but i would hope they wouldnt kill the manual untill it was at the point where they stopped making money by keeping them around

[Engineer_Guy]

Thoughts on Manual vs DCT?

Seriously getting depressed that most cars are going DCT with no option for manual. They almost did it for the F10 M5 and again for the M3/M4. Lambos and Ferraris are DCT only, 911 GT3's are PDK only.

Makes me sad, when I can finally afford the car(s) I want I'm going to have to buy them 5-6 years old to get them in manual. Really hope this trend changes soon.


I understand DCT for track purposes, they are faster. But for enjoyment manual > all. Also I don't understand how people cry about driving manual in traffic. DD a manual G35 with aftermarket JWT clutch and 14lb single mass flywheel. Clutch is extremely heavy and the light flywheel isn't very forgiving. Bumper to bumper 30 min commute every morning and I have zero problems. Not once have I thought "I wish I was driving an auto right now".

Not everyone shares your opinion. I have a DSG GTI and I love it. Unlike you, I really didn't want to deal with a clutch in bumper to bumper traffic. The dual clutch is nice because it still gives you full control over the gears and it's still a manual gearbox so it behaves like a manual would. Yes it's slightly less engaging because there's no clutch pedal but my car is used for daily driving purposes 90% of the time anyways.

[arekieh]

Not everyone shares your opinion. I have a DSG GTI and I love it. Unlike you, I really didn't want to deal with a clutch in bumper to bumper traffic. The dual clutch is nice because it still gives you full control over the gears and it's still a manual gearbox so it behaves like a manual would. Yes it's slightly less engaging because there's no clutch pedal but my car is used for daily driving purposes 90% of the time anyways.

But it doesn't give you full control. Skipping gears, double downshifting in same time it takes to single downshift, and who was modulating the clutch???

I get that lots of people like DCT's or just don't care enough for it to be a deal breaker. It still sucks that manuals are going the way of the dinosaur though.

Many people who can actually afford the cars you listed are owned by people who buy them for the status. Like yourname2221 said most people want something that looks good, is easy to drive and that they can brag about to their friends with. "My ferrari does 0-60 in 3 secs" or whatever.

People who are looking to buy a car for the sake of the driving experience in the high end market makes up a very small percentage of the people that own those cars. Cars like the GT3 come in PDK because that car in particular is often owned by people who do track their cars and ARE looking for the fastest lap times. I think that it will be a while still untill all manuals are dead in the enthusiast market.

Cars like the M3 still have a large portion of their cars sold as manuals. I wouldnt be suprised if they made the DCT the standard transmission soon, but i would hope they wouldnt kill the manual untill it was at the point where they stopped making money by keeping them around

Negative, forget where I read it but something like 95% of M3's produced are DCT.

Also they are no longer making manual gallardos because only 5% of gallardos sold were manual.


That feeling of a perfect downshift, and actually being engaged while driving. DCT's literally remove so much from the equation. Way less skill and finesse involved. You hit a button or push a paddle, yay good for you.

Any idiot can hit the rated 0-60 in a DCT, you have to know how to drive to get the most out of a manual. I get its not everyones cup of tea but sucks that "drivers cars" are becoming cars that drive you.


I'm also curious to see what happens in 5 to 6 years when the DCT's start showing some age. Maintenance and shelf life etc. Should be interesting.

[Engineer_Guy]

But it doesn't give you full control. Skipping gears, double downshifting in same time it takes to single downshift

Double tap your paddles to "skip" over gears. It doesn't actually skip them but it shifts so fast than you basically do skip it. And it probably still shifts through two gears faster than you can shift once manually.

That feeling of a perfect downshift, and actually being engaged while driving. DCT's literally remove so much from the equation. Way less skill and finesse involved. You hit a button or push a paddle, yay good for you.

Any idiot can hit the rated 0-60 in a DCT, you have to know how to drive to get the most out of a manual. I get its not everyones cup of tea but sucks that "drivers cars" are becoming cars that drive you.

lol @ this. Any idiot can hit the rated 0-60 in a manual too. Driving a manual is not rocket science brah. The only time driving really takes any finesse and skill is on a track. Driving a manual on the phucking highway doesn't take finesse lol.

[ThisIsMyAlias]

Okay you know we could just dispense with the arguments and say that dual clutch transmissions are super duper fast and way higher performance than manual transmissions and that manual transmissions are enjoyable and engaging and fun to drive unless you're a girl and you're worried about breaking a nail in traffic.


Whatever you prefer is fine but it would be nice if we continued to have options and choices.

[BuildUpNow]

DCT are a different driving experience and you're probably not used to it hence why you derive less perceived pleasure from it. I've had just as much fun driving a dct car on the same roads and track as my c6z. I do feel the manner in which you drive or race a dct car is far more punishing on the car or at least causes far more wear to tires and brakes at the very least. But claims that DCT removes so much from the driving experience is nonsense. It removes certain elements and makes you focus more on others. IF it removes so much from the driving experience for you it's either because you don't know how to drive one or you're just used to a different driving style and thus showing your bias.

[arekieh]

Double tap your paddles to "skip" over gears. It doesn't actually skip them but it shifts so fast than you basically do skip it. And it probably still shifts through two gears faster than you can shift once manually.



lol @ this. Any idiot can hit the rated 0-60 in a manual too. Driving a manual is not rocket science brah. The only time driving really takes any finesse and skill is on a track. Driving a manual on the phucking highway doesn't take finesse lol.

I want to see some numbers about that. How fast does it shift if you double shift? How a DCT works wont let you pre select the second gear, only the next one. So how fast is a single shift compared to a double shift in time? I doubt its much faster than a human can shift manual.

Also how fast does it shift when you shift opposite of what it has pre selected or what it anticipates you are going to shift to?

And no, @ the second point. Looking at 1/4 mile times on forums the differences are pretty big .

Okay you know we could just dispense with the arguments and say that dual clutch transmissions are super duper fast and way higher performance than manual transmissions and that manual transmissions are enjoyable and engaging and fun to drive unless you're a girl and you're worried about breaking a nail in traffic.


Whatever you prefer is fine but it would be nice if we continued to have options and choices.

This is pretty much all I'm saying, makes me sad to have less options.

DCT are a different driving experience and you're probably not used to it hence why you derive less perceived pleasure from it. I've had just as much fun driving a dct car on the same roads and track as my c6z. I do feel the manner in which you drive or race a dct car is far more punishing on the car or at least causes far more wear to tires and brakes at the very least. But claims that DCT removes so much from the driving experience is nonsense. It removes certain elements and makes you focus more on others. IF it removes so much from the driving experience for you it's either because you don't know how to drive one or you're just used to a different driving style and thus showing your bias.

Can you please expand on that? It removes shifting but what does it add?

[sanblz33]

I would go manual b/c the repair costs of DCT cars are scary

[WSG1]

I would go manual b/c the repair costs of DCT cars are scary

this.

[Jax05]

DCT is actually better in Lambos/Ferraris/etc. than a manual. Manual transmissions in those cars are just terrible, with the exception of Audi R8. Ever tried pressing a clutch on Lamborghini Diablo? It's like a Stg. 4 on EVO 8...lol

VW's DSG is pretty nice too. I have a friend who has a GTI with APR stage 2+ and DSG transmission and that thing is quick. Shifts are very fast and there's no way in hell you could match that with a manual. Also having magnesium shift pedals makes it feel fancy as fuark

With that said, I'm all for manuals, but if I was to buy a Ferrari or Lambo it would be the DCT

[BuildUpNow]

Can you please expand on that? It removes shifting but what does it add?

It doesn't really remove shifting tho I guess this is more an issue of semantics. It removes the clutch pedal and skip shifting. It can change the way you drive as you don't have the clutch for engine braking so it changes braking and acceleration patterns. If the car has a turbo it makes brake boosting much easier.

[Looter]

I want to see some numbers about that. How fast does it shift if you double shift? How a DCT works wont let you pre select the second gear, only the next one. So how fast is a single shift compared to a double shift in time? I doubt its much faster than a human can shift manual.

Also how fast does it shift when you shift opposite of what it has pre selected or what it anticipates you are going to shift to?

I don't have numbers on it but double tapping downshift in my GTI happens in a blink of an eye. You can't even tell that it settles into the middle gear. It's definitely faster downshifting from 6>4 than what I can do with a manual.

[arekieh]

It doesn't really remove shifting tho I guess this is more an issue of semantics. It removes the clutch pedal and skip shifting. It can change the way you drive as you don't have the clutch for engine braking so it changes braking and acceleration patterns. If the car has a turbo it makes brake boosting much easier.

You can't engine brake with a DCT? What kind of DCT have you been driving??

Brake boosting easier how, when you are brake boosting you should already be in the proper gear?

The mechanics are literally identical, the only difference is you have a computer shifting for you... and you have to go through gears linearly and no clutch modulation.


And what does DCT add to allow you to drive differently?

[arekieh]

I don't have numbers on it but double tapping downshift in my GTI happens in a blink of an eye. You can't even tell that it settles into the middle gear. It's definitely faster downshifting from 6>4 than what I can do with a manual.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412453

Seems you're right, that is an interesting thread

DCT's are pretty amazing technology. I think they're awesome, I just prefer manual.

[ninous26]

Are you on G35driver? It's dead now but back in the day everyone was like OP.. Praise manuals and talk chit about autos..

Times have changed. Humans can't really compete with DCT.



What does DCT add as mentioned above? Well lets say I'm going 100 MPH running away from someone shooting at me on the highway and I need to weave in and out of traffic. Instead of having to divert some of my attention to clutch, move shifter, give engine revs, clutch out and focus on the road. I can tap my paddle shifter 2-3 times by lifting a finger or two and keep my eyes/mind dedicated fully to whats ahead and whats behind me.

I agree though, MT is more fun in some cases. DCT can also be a blast.

[arekieh]

[youtube]PJpNjPNNBsM[youtube]

Are you on G35driver? It's dead now but back in the day everyone was like OP.. Praise manuals and talk chit about autos..

Times have changed. Humans can't really compete with DCT.



What does DCT add as mentioned above? Well lets say I'm going 100 MPH running away from someone shooting at me on the highway and I need to weave in and out of traffic. Instead of having to divert some of my attention to clutch, move shifter, give engine revs, clutch out and focus on the road. I can tap my paddle shifter 2-3 times by lifting a finger or two and keep my eyes/mind dedicated fully to whats ahead and whats behind me.

I agree though, MT is more fun in some cases. DCT can also be a blast.

I am on G35driver but i've never been very active.

DCT's are techically manuals controlled by computers with two input shafts. Autos actually do suck massively lol.

Haha, I get what your saying. They are pretty cool just sucks the option is being taken away.

[GetBigyo]

Who the **** cares about the minimal speed gained from a DCT vs. a traditional Manual?

Unless you're racing at a track, i'll take the fun factor of a 6 speed over some paddle shifters. If I buy an M3 for my daily driver, I can give two sh*ts if my 6MT runs a 12.5 1/4 time compared to a 12.2 DCT time.

[Engineer_Guy]

I want to see some numbers about that. How fast does it shift if you double shift? How a DCT works wont let you pre select the second gear, only the next one. So how fast is a single shift compared to a double shift in time? I doubt its much faster than a human can shift manual.

Also how fast does it shift when you shift opposite of what it has pre selected or what it anticipates you are going to shift to?

And no, @ the second point. Looking at 1/4 mile times on forums the differences are pretty big.

I I don't have numbers on double shifting, I know the VW DSG upshifts in 8ms when the next gear is pre-selected. I don't have the numbers on hand for a double shift though, in other words, how long it takes to pre-select a gear. It certainly won't be any slower than what it takes a manual shifter to shift a gear though. Anyone who has driven both, like myself, can tell you that from experience. It might end up being about the same time. I don't know. The point was that you can double shift a DCT to get the same effect as skipping a gear in a manual. My point wasn't really about the timing.

If you think shifting a manual is what driving finesse is I suggest you hit a track sometime and learn what driving finesse really means.

[depaulhifi]

I I don't have numbers on double shifting, I know the VW DSG upshifts in 8ms when the next gear is pre-selected. I don't have the numbers on hand for a double shift though, in other words, how long it takes to pre-select a gear. It certainly won't be any slower than what it takes a manual shifter to shift a gear though. Anyone who has driven both, like myself, can tell you that from experience. It might end up being about the same time. I don't know. The point was that you can double shift a DCT to get the same effect as skipping a gear in a manual. My point wasn't really about the timing.

If you think shifting a manual is what driving finesse is I suggest you hit a track sometime and learn what driving finesse really means.

I have a decent amount of experience driving a DSG car as well. There really is more to driving a DSG/M-DCT car than just pulling some paddles. While it is true you can put the car in manual mode, blip the right paddle, and put it in the next highest gear... but to really get the car to sing, you have to work at it just as much as you would a stick car.

For my money, and given where I live and what kind of driving that would entail, I would go for a DSG/M-DCT over a stick any day.

[arekieh]

I I don't have numbers on double shifting, I know the VW DSG upshifts in 8ms when the next gear is pre-selected. I don't have the numbers on hand for a double shift though, in other words, how long it takes to pre-select a gear. It certainly won't be any slower than what it takes a manual shifter to shift a gear though. Anyone who has driven both, like myself, can tell you that from experience. It might end up being about the same time. I don't know. The point was that you can double shift a DCT to get the same effect as skipping a gear in a manual. My point wasn't really about the timing.

If you think shifting a manual is what driving finesse is I suggest you hit a track sometime and learn what driving finesse really means.

I didn't say it is what driving finesse is, I said it takes finesse to drive a stick properly. Even moreso on a track.

Heel-toeing, rev matching, etc. Everything is more involved.

I have a decent amount of experience driving a DSG car as well. There really is more to driving a DSG/M-DCT car than just pulling some paddles. While it is true you can put the car in manual mode, blip the right paddle, and put it in the next highest gear... but to really get the car to sing, you have to work at it just as much as you would a stick car.

For my money, and given where I live and what kind of driving that would entail, I would go for a DSG/M-DCT over a stick any day.

Lol people always say this but never expand. How do you have to "work it"? Do you have to slowly apply infintesmal amounts of pressure to the paddle to ride the trigger til the perfect time, or time that 8ms shift to shift at the exact instant you want? Give me a break, thats just bs.

DCT allows you to worry less about shifting and focus on other parts of driving, but you don't have to work it as much as a stick car. A stick car requires one more appendage and a lot more motion.

[depaulhifi]

I didn't say it is what driving finesse is, I said it takes finesse to drive a stick properly. Even moreso on a track.

Heel-toeing, rev matching, etc. Everything is more involved.



Lol people always say this but never expand. How do you have to "work it"? Do you have to slowly apply infintesmal amounts of pressure to the paddle to ride the trigger til the perfect time, or time that 8ms shift to shift at the exact instant you want? Give me a break, thats just bs.

DCT allows you to worry less about shifting and focus on other parts of driving, but you don't have to work it as much as a stick car. A stick car requires one more appendage and a lot more motion.

Thanks for validating my viewpoint. Shifting is less about the hand motion required to engage a different gear, and more about knowing when and why to engage a different gear. And lettuce be cereal here... driving a stick isn't really rocket science either. You step on a pedal and pull a lever, big deal.

If you're in a stick car, and heading hard into a 2nd gear turn, and you pop it into 1st, bad things are going to happen, just like in a DSG. On the flip side, if you're heading hard into a 2nd gear turn and for some reason decide to pop it in 6th, not so great things are gonna happen too. Point being, getting the most out of both transmissions does take skill and practice. We're talking about driving skill here, not just shifting skill.

[arekieh]

Thanks for validating my viewpoint. Shifting is less about the hand motion required to engage a different gear, and more about knowing when and why to engage a different gear. And lettuce be cereal here... driving a stick isn't really rocket science either. You step on a pedal and pull a lever, big deal.

If you're in a stick car, and heading hard into a 2nd gear turn, and you pop it into 1st, bad things are going to happen, just like in a DSG. On the flip side, if you're heading hard into a 2nd gear turn and for some reason decide to pop it in 6th, not so great things are gonna happen too. Point being, getting the most out of both transmissions does take skill and practice. We're talking about driving skill here, not just shifting skill.

Actually no you just validated my point.

All things being equal, a manual is more engaging and requires more skill. You have to know when to shift, and you have to shift properly while doing other things at the same time.

Shifting is pretty simple, but heel toeing while flying into a corner and the wheel is squirreling in your hands takes skill.
Driving stick isn't rocket science... which is why so many people are terrible at it right?

Manual is an inversely exponential learning curve, getting decent at it is easy, getting really good at it is hard.