Want to start ketosis on recomp, but afraid of lowered intensity in gym?

[proteins2k13]

Should I eat around 30 grams of carbs preworkout, and keep total carbs less than 50-60 grams throughout the day? Also, what about my post workout carbs?

[InItForFitness]

Should I eat around 30 grams of carbs preworkout, and keep total carbs less than 50-60 grams throughout the day? Also, what about my post workout carbs?

This question would be better suited for the Keto section of the forum.
I'd also recommend you do plenty of reading in the sticky threads of that section to understand Keto and proper execution.

[BWC101]

Another question might be - why keto?

Maybe you can "recomp" while still eating carbs......

[Mrpb]

why keto?

^ This!

[Burial]

Keto just makes everything harder.. there is no metabolic advantage.. If you wanna train like a beast you have to eat carbs. end of.

[respawn]

yep. did keto for 2 weeks to try it. I could barely lift a thing and just wanted to sleep all day. its not the best thats for sure.

[EmperorRyker]

yep. did keto for 2 weeks to try it. I could barely lift a thing and just wanted to sleep all day. its not the best thats for sure.

Well, two weeks is about the minimum people usually say they require to get used to it, so trying it out for that amount of time is pretty pointless. From what I hear, some people thrive on it, many don't. But if you're going to try, you need to give it at least a month, you can't just jump on it for two weeks. I namely don't think it's unusual to feel like crap at the start.

Having said that, nothing special about keto. But as mentioned, some people swear by it, and say their mood, alertness etc. improves, so I say the OP should try it and see for himself. He's obviously curious, so why not. The worst that can happen is he feels like **** for a month and loses some muscle, as could happen with any other approach. But as InItForFitness said, the key here is to properly execute it, because it's a diet you can't half-ass.

[respawn]

Well, two weeks is about the minimum people usually say they require to get used to it, so trying it out for that amount of time is pretty pointless. From what I hear, some people thrive on it, many don't. But if you're going to try, you need to give it at least a month, you can't just jump on it for two weeks. I namely don't think it's unusual to feel like crap at the start.

Having said that, nothing special about keto. But as mentioned, some people swear by it, and say their mood, alertness etc. improves, so I say the OP should try it and see for himself. He's obviously curious, so why not. The worst that can happen is he feels like **** for a month and loses some muscle, as could happen with any other approach. But as InItForFitness said, the key here is to properly execute it, because it's a diet you can't half-ass.

I saw def weight loss on the abs over the 2 weeks and lost 3kg. tried stuffing myself with tons of chicken and fish at the mess "army" would force it all down. just my opinion I didn't rate it at all. could barely bench 80kg at the end of it and just had no gas in the tank. 0 carbs = 0 glycogen. But if some people enjoy it why not, just what I experienced

[AlwaysTryin]

I saw def weight loss on the abs over the 2 weeks and lost 3kg. tried stuffing myself with tons of chicken and fish at the mess "army" would force it all down. just my opinion I didn't rate it at all. could barely bench 80kg at the end of it and just had no gas in the tank. 0 carbs = 0 glycogen. But if some people enjoy it why not, just what I experienced

You lost water weight yes

I personally think keto is great and I function better and am far stronger on it OP. I'd suggest you decide if you rather eat carbs or not. If you don't, then give keto a go for a few months

[WonderPug]

I personally think keto is great and I function better and am far stronger on it OP.

Me too.

The difference is astonishing.

[xJellyBirdx]

You lost water weight yes

I personally think keto is great and I function better and am far stronger on it OP. I'd suggest you decide if you rather eat carbs or not. If you don't, then give keto a go for a few months

Me too.

The difference is astonishing.

I envy you two. I felt super great on keto; however, nothing I tried seemed to help my performance in the gym

[WonderPug]

I envy you two. I felt super great on keto; however, nothing I tried seemed to help my performance in the gym

Have you tried a strict LCHF diet, with protein intake no more than 0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight and no less than 0.6 grams, carb intake <50 grams and all remaining calories from fat?

If so, have you persisted the diet for at least three months to ensure adaptation (though full benefits can sometimes take as long as 18 months)?

Are you sure that your mineral intake was sufficient?

Lastly, have you tried consuming significant amounts of MCTs from, for example, coconut oil and coconut milk, as such can sometimes dramatically improve energy and performance?

[plateau_max]

Low carb diet plans have been raging on since Atkins hit the scene over a decade ago (I remember my mother doing it when i was still in High School). I remember during my undergrad days even in my lower division nutrition courses it was discussed into the ground constantly.

Obviously Keto refers to the ketone bodies produced when your body has burned up all of its glycogen stores and is relying on proteins and triglycerides for fuel. The bottom line is, the body wants to use sugars for energy. Glycolysis --> Krebs Cycle --> Electron Transport Chain --> ENERGY! When you exercise to the point where you use up all of your available energy from food carbs, then burn through the stores in your muscles and liver, then your body has no choice but to burn muscle and fat. If you exercise with a caloric deficit, this happens because you're burning more than you're eating in general. With Keto this just happens a lot faster because it takes a lot longer to convert fats and proteins into energy, so when you exercise, there's nothing there to begin with, thus you start burning muscle and fat quicker.

Obviously there's a downside to this. If you have no readily available energy, how do you expect to get a good workout? Most people on keto exercise very little and with their daily activity and zero glycogen stores, they can lose weight. Some people tough through it and have very exhausting workouts while performing less than if they had the carbs. Then there's another niche group of people whom (I'm told this is difficult to nail) consume carbs shortly before working out, then do everything they can to make sure they burn up every last carb so that when they are finished, they are still in ketosis.

It involves research and careful planning, and you are going to experience behavioral changes due to the lack of readily available energy. What those changes are depends on you, everyone is different. I tried it myself for 3 months back in 2011 and while I was successful with it, I found that it was pretty useless for me (I'm in good shape) and I didn't enjoy the behavioral changes (no appetite, very emotionally dull like a robot, etc). If you want to try it, go for it. Many have been successful with it, just make sure you do your research and approach it carefully.

[ccmarks]

I love Keto. I feel great when I'm in ketosis. I think what is hard for people is consuming more fat then protein, I know that's something I struggle with..but the fat is where the energy is coming from. I completed an iron girl triathlon while in Keto and i keep breaking PR's in the gym. I may be a girl but I'm not afraid to lift as heavy as possible.

[xJellyBirdx]

Have you tried a strict LCHF diet, with protein intake no more than 0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight and no less than 0.6 grams, carb intake <50 grams and all remaining calories from fat?

If so, have you persisted the diet for at least three months to ensure adaptation (though full benefits can sometimes take as long as 18 months)?

Are you sure that your mineral intake was sufficient?

Lastly, have you tried consuming significant amounts of MCTs from, for example, coconut oil and coconut milk, as such can sometimes dramatically improve energy and performance?

I wasn't on that strict of a keto diet, surely not that long. I did during 3-4 weeks adaption but due to gym performance I'd always carb up after that. My mineral intake was sufficient to the best of my knowledge and I did use coconut oil everyday. I do want to try and make the switch again at some point because based of the studies I've seen I'd say it is superior. You really have to wait up to 18 months? How do you perform in the gym until full adaption because I remember in one of our discussions you said to receive full benefits you need to avoid carb ups.

I swear, if I could do keto and keep my gym performance I'd be set haha. I just assumed I was one of those people that couldn't do have my cake and eat it too in those regards.

[respawn]

I have heard good and bad from it.

if you do it and you find good then so be it. i won't argue and tell you your wrong when you clearly know how you feel more then me

[eriquee]

I wasn't on that strict of a keto diet, surely not that long. I did during 3-4 weeks adaption but due to gym performance I'd always carb up after that. My mineral intake was sufficient to the best of my knowledge and I did use coconut oil everyday. I do want to try and make the switch again at some point because based of the studies I've seen I'd say it is superior. You really have to wait up to 18 months? How do you perform in the gym until full adaption because I remember in one of our discussions you said to receive full benefits you need to avoid carb ups.

I swear, if I could do keto and keep my gym performance I'd be set haha. I just assumed I was one of those people that couldn't do have my cake and eat it too in those regards.

Well you know that glycogen stores are fueled by the glycerol released from the triglycerides and metabolized in the liver to form glycogen right?

Carbs are not the only source of glycogen.

I tried keto, never felt a single difference from a moderate carb diet, but then I returned to moderate carbs because its so damn hard to avoid carbs these days.

[respawn]

here layne norton doesn't advice ketosis and goies all in to carbs

http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-...ting-diet.html

[xJellyBirdx]

Well you know that glycogen stores are fueled by the glycerol released from the triglycerides and metabolized in the liver to form glycogen right?

Carbs are not the only source of glycogen.

I tried keto, never felt a single difference from a moderate carb diet, but then I returned to moderate carbs because its so damn hard to avoid carbs these days.

To the best of my knowledge this is highly limited. My understanding is it is only like 18g a day.

[WonderPug]

You really have to wait up to 18 months? How do you perform in the gym until full adaption because I remember in one of our discussions you said to receive full benefits you need to avoid carb ups.

Maximum performance benefits can take upto 18 months, but after 4 to 8 weeks you should be performing very well if the diet is going to work for you.

Carb ups partly defeat the purpose.

[eriquee]

To the best of my knowledge this is highly limited. My understanding is it is only like 18g a day.

Although I dont have data on that, I highly, highly, doubt its only 18g, even <100g glycogen/day, I do believe its way more than that.

[xJellyBirdx]

Maximum performance benefits can take upto 18 months, but after 4 to 8 weeks you should be performing very well if the diet is going to work for you.

Carb ups partly defeat the purpose.

Hmmm.... This really makes me want to go 8 weeks to your specifications again to see. I pretty much did everything you stated except there were times where I went over on protein. Curious, what do you recommend as a workout while adapting. Lyle suggests low reps following the 1/3 rule for retaining muscle mass. And with TKD and CKD 'partly' defeating the purpose, it sounds like a catch 22, for me at least.

[WonderPug]

To the best of my knowledge this is highly limited. My understanding is it is only like 18g a day.

It's governed by needs, with protein scavenged from tissue if necessary to meet glucose requirements (circulating and stored).

[xJellyBirdx]

Although I dont have data on that, I highly, highly, doubt its only 18g, even <100g glycogen/day, I do believe its way more than that.

Greens if you find the information from a credible source by time I get back from the gym Sorry, I'm not lazy, just gym time and would appreciate the help.

It's governed by needs, with protein scavenged from tissue if necessary to meet glucose requirements (circulating and stored).

So where does that leave a person falling in your specifications following Lyle's recommendation of low-rep 1/3 rule?

[WonderPug]

Hmmm.... This really makes me want to go 8 weeks to your specifications again to see. I pretty much did everything you stated except there were times where I went over on protein. Curious, what do you recommend as a workout while adapting. Lyle suggests low reps following the 1/3 rule for retaining muscle mass. And with TKD and CKD 'partly' defeating the purpose, it sounds like a catch 22, for me at least.

Ketogenic diets don't work for everyone, but it might be worth another try.

Workouts. I'd titrate volume and intensity instinctively during adaptation.

Make sure protein intake is no more than 0.8 grams/d.

For me, nutritional ketosis allows for amazing performance. I manage 2 to 2.5 hours of intensive lifting in an overnight fasted state 5 to 6 days per week. And I'm 46. Zero supplements. Zero medication. Zero "enhancements".

[WonderPug]

So where does that leave a person falling in your specifications following Lyle's recommendation of low-rep 1/3 rule?

I don't know what he recommend, but most workouts I do a range of reps from 1 RM to 20 reps. And I do endurance style stuff too, like 200 pullups in as few sets as possible with little rest between sets. Number of reps per set drops, obviously, as I push towards the 200 mark.

[xJellyBirdx]

I don't know what he recommend, but most workouts I do a range of reps from 1 RM to 20 reps. And I do endurance style stuff too, like 200 pullups in as few sets as possible with little rest between sets. Number of reps per set drops, obviously, as I push towards the 200 mark.

That sure is enticing. I'll have to try it again and stick with it for a couple months without carb ups period. Outside of my veggies, the only carbs I eat are potatoes and raw honey and that is purely so I have energy to lift. As long as I can have 1oz honey a day I'm good. Sorry Pug, on spread.

[eriquee]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7647479

Couldnt find an exact number, but after 72h of fasting glycerol acounts from 21.6% of all glucose production.

[respawn]

I heard glycogen replenish is 5% per hour with carbs. with fats and proteins (ketosis) its much longer due to the long chains.

But true or not I dunno didn't look too much in to it.