Hard work and genetic potential rehashed

[Bo_Flecks]

Genetic potential is an interesting topic for me. As a 50 year old natty competitor, I wonder sometimes just how much additional size I can actually add to my frame. Don't get me wrong, I have size and improvement goals that I am constantly working on. But my aspirations and my reality may be two different things.

The top pic was taking in the summer of 2011, and the middle pic was taken in the summer of 2012, and the bottom pic was taken this summer (2013).







While there are obvious differences between the three pics, my records show that statistically my weight and measurements from the first two time periods are very similar with only the body fat level being of any significant difference due to the 2012 contest prep. In the bottom pic, my weight is about 5lbs heavier than the previous two time periods with the measurements only being slightly larger, which once again speaks to body fat levels. Due to some health issues, 2013 has bee a terrible training year.

So for me, at this point in my training the raw numbers are not giving me the feedback I am looking for where my genetic potential for improvement and growth are concerned. Because of that, I have gone almost completely to progress pictures to assess my development.

[ntrllftr]

Genetic potential is an interesting topic for me. As a 50 year old natty competitor, I wonder sometimes just how much additional size I can actually add to my frame. Don't get me wrong, I have size and improvement goals that I am constantly working on. But my aspirations and my reality may be two different things.

The top pic was taking in the summer of 2011, and the middle pic was taken in the summer of 2012, and the bottom pic was taken this summer (2013).







While there are obvious differences between the three pics, my records show that statistically my weight and measurements from the first two time periods are very similar with only the body fat level being of any significant difference due to the 2012 contest prep. In the bottom pic, my weight is about 5lbs heavier than the previous two time periods with the measurements only being slightly larger, which once again speaks to body fat levels. Due to some health issues, 2013 has bee a terrible training year.

So for me, at this point in my training the raw numbers are not giving me the feedback I am looking for where my genetic potential for improvement and growth are concerned. Because of that, I have gone almost completely to progress pictures to assess my development.

Excellent post Steve!!! Exactly what I have seen with myself as well. Thanks for the input!

[tomnationwide]

A rarity in elite powerlifters is small muscles. I think that a lot of people consider themselves genetically incapable of being a lot bigger and there's nothing wrong with it but I also believe those people are not pushing their strength levels. I agree that genetics plays a roll but I think training is such a large component that many people alleging they cannot get bigger or that they have tried have only applied their own methods to make this determination.

What I would say is that if you have been working out for 10-20years with constant strength increases you would be lifting 450-500lb in a Bench Press or a signifcant squat and deadlift.

I know there's exceptions to everything but strength does increase the "need" for size.

[racedoc]

Exactly, my faith teaches to try and love everyone, especially those that hate and try to hurt you. I was raised a gentleman, and no matter if someone is mean or discourteous, it's my responsibility as a fellow human to still treat you with honor & love.

There are sadly always a certain number of pathetically insecure people in gyms (and the forums, for that matter). Good on you for taking the high road. Personally I have neither the religious conviction nor the self control over my temper to put up with that BS, so I lift at home. Good luck to you.

[Korr]

Ronnie Coleman, Lee Haney or Jay Cutler big..... You know what I mean bro.

Yeah, but none of us would reach that kind of potential naturally.......nor would they have.

But naturally Reg Park levels (his 1949 size) are possible, and he lifted old school. By old school I mean lift heavy and eat big. Not like today's lifters with body part splits and high reps.

If you are going to make comparisons you should be looking at the old school naturals, before the unnatural stuff changed everything in the 1970s.

[racedoc]

If you are going to make comparison you should be looking at the old school naturals, before the unnatural stuff changed everything in the 1970s.

That's a great point. I still use Frank Zane as a role model and inspiration just like I did 25 years ago.

[Rugbyfanfla]

When I went to my HS reunion I was 40 (good) pounds heavier than I was back in the day. I'm not going to lie, it was a little satisfying but it doesn't really mean anything. Living well, working hard in the gym, and enjoying the process is infinitely more rewarding to me.

I think it goes without saying that the overall aspect is that we feel better about life because of our new lifestyle.

[Rugbyfanfla]

IF this is true then how can you feel intimidated by others in the gym? Doesn't make sense to me.

Past experiences. And I am nowhere near perfect, far from it, and I have a lot of growing to do, as we all do. But at least I will admit it.

[Rugbyfanfla]

Wow. I am not one to fight but no way am I going to let anyone talk to me like that.

And if I attempt to fight him, and end up with with a broken limb or jaw what does it gain me other than a lot of physical pain & medical bills ?

[Rugbyfanfla]

There are sadly always a certain number of pathetically insecure people in gyms (and the forums, for that matter). Good on you for taking the high road. Personally I have neither the religious conviction nor the self control over my temper to put up with that BS, so I lift at home. Good luck to you.

I don't worry about it. Eventually those people that attack others, piss off the wrong person and they pay for it.

[ntrllftr]

Past experiences. And I am nowhere near perfect, far from it, and I have a lot of growing to do, as we all do. But at least I will admit it.

Bro I am 150 soaking wet. No whey in hell anyone is going to say any shyt to me like that and not hear me tell them to fukk off!!! I'm not per fect either but fukk that!

And here I am kumbya... grr!

[StressMonkey]

I was a solid 120.

How the F did you look like that at 120? Back in the day I was 113 and I looked emaciated.

[GuyJin]

That's a great point. I still use Frank Zane as a role model and inspiration just like I did 25 years ago.

---

Frank Zane was far from natural. Just sayin'...

His physique, however, is a good model to strive for.

[ntrllftr]

How the F did you look like that at 120? Back in the day I was 113 and I looked emaciated.

I guess the same now at 150 and people think I'm 180. Other than that I don't know.

[discdoggie]

Exactly, my faith teaches to try and love everyone, especially those that hate and try to hurt you. I was raised a gentleman, and no matter if someone is mean or discourteous, it's my responsibility as a fellow human to still treat you with honor & love.

Even you Flex

I think that is very nice. . You don't HAVE to take abuse, though. I wanna knock that douche's teeth out for you myself!

[ntrllftr]

I think that is very nice. . You don't HAVE to take abuse, though. I wanna knock that douche's teeth out for you myself!

Gowd dam I luv this chick!

[Rugbyfanfla]

Bro I am 150 soaking wet. No whey in hell anyone is going to say any shyt to me like that and not hear me tell them to fukk off!!! I'm not per fect either but fukk that!

And here I am kumbya... grr!

I hear ya, but it did catch me kind of off-guard. I know from a couple of spy reports from friends at the gym, that told me later he was arrested on several outstanding warrents. So in the end, he got what was coming to him (and maybe Bubba made him his bitch there too )

[Rugbyfanfla]

I think that is very nice. . You don't HAVE to take abuse, though. I wanna knock that douche's teeth out for you myself!

LOL well as I said he got what was coming to him. But I'll appreciate the backup in case Flex comes at me again

[discdoggie]

Gowd dam I luv this chick!

Ditto.

[discdoggie]

LOL well as I said he got what was coming to him. But I'll appreciate the backup in case Flex comes at me again

You and Flex are going to grow to be great e-friends. You watch.

[Bando]

---

Frank Zane was far from natural. Just sayin'...

His physique, however, is a good model to strive for.

I think Frank was Natty and some of the reading I'm doing backs that up. He competed in a lot of tested shows in an era where it was not easy to beat a drug test.

[-=FLEX=-]

LOL well as I said he got what was coming to him. But I'll appreciate the backup in case Flex comes at me again

LOLWUT?

I 'came at you' ????


Dude, you have some serious issues.....

[GuyJin]

I think Frank was Natty and some of the reading I'm doing backs that up. He competed in a lot of tested shows in an era where it was not easy to beat a drug test.

---

You serious? The guy used back then. Maybe not as much as his contemporaries did, but he used.

[discdoggie]

LOLWUT?

I 'came at you' ????


Dude, you have some serious issues.....

He's just sensitive.

[JOHN GARGANI]

I've had to wait ALL DAMN DAY to respond to this thread! just a crazy busy day....

anyhoo: Carl , we've spoken about this so many times, and yes, it is frustrating...going back to the very beginning of your thread, with the pictures of Kane, a long time internet buddy, although he has put on 20 pounds of lean weight over the years, he is essentially capped out: training naturally, he will NOT get much bigger, regardless of the fact that his physique is just terrific and I have always admired him.

The inherent problem is that we don't know EXACTLY what our natural genetic limit is: my personal feeling is that severe dieting to enter contests LIMITS reaching our potential....you can only push the body back and forth so many times.....

trying to achieve contest level bodyfat percentages plays havoc with reaching your size potential....

check out the pictures that Steve Bo Flecks posted: except for being much more cut in the middle shot, his size is essentially the same...he has NOT gotten any bigger, nor will he....

to constantly get bigger, naturally, we must be in over abundance of calories ALL THE TIME, and let's face it: none of us really want to do that anymore!

comes a time, eventually, in a man's life, where the heart is not so particular in that if it has to drag around 30 or 40 extra pounds, it revolts regardless of whether it is lean OR fat....as we age, and our hearts age, stress is stress.....

so, it would not be healthy to constantly chase the size monkey....

better, much better, to seek REFINEMENT: balance things out, work on symmetry, proportions, etc....be picky and choosy what we do....

I firmly believe we can keep improving the APPEARANCE of our physiques, if not the overall size.....

[fittofattofit]

I've had to wait ALL DAMN DAY to respond to this thread! just a crazy busy day....

anyhoo: Carl , we've spoken about this so many times, and yes, it is frustrating...going back to the very beginning of your thread, with the pictures of Kane, a long time internet buddy, although he has put on 20 pounds of lean weight over the years, he is essentially capped out: training naturally, he will NOT get much bigger, regardless of the fact that his physique is just terrific and I have always admired him.

The inherent problem is that we don't know EXACTLY what our natural genetic limit is: my personal feeling is that severe dieting to enter contests LIMITS reaching our potential....you can only push the body back and forth so many times.....

trying to achieve contest level bodyfat percentages plays havoc with reaching your size potential....

check out the pictures that Steve Bo Flecks posted: except for being much more cut in the middle shot, his size is essentially the same...he has NOT gotten any bigger, nor will he....

to constantly get bigger, naturally, we must be in over abundance of calories ALL THE TIME, and let's face it: none of us really want to do that anymore!

comes a time, eventually, in a man's life, where the heart is not so particular in that if it has to drag around 30 or 40 extra pounds, it revolts regardless of whether it is lean OR fat....as we age, and our hearts age, stress is stress.....

so, it would not be healthy to constantly chase the size monkey....

better, much better, to seek REFINEMENT: balance things out, work on symmetry, proportions, etc....be picky and choosy what we do....

I firmly believe we can keep improving the APPEARANCE of our physiques, if not the overall size.....

All true IMO. Great post

[Bando]

Carl is camping with his family right now and I suspect well into his Budweiser's. Good for him, srs lifter who I respect.

When I reached my "genetic potential" I went to my Doc and had my test checked. Lo and behold after 2 years of just killing the weights without any gains, I had the test level of a girl scout troop.

I made the necessary changes and my progress spiked up to where it should have been all along. Then I started actually lifting the weights I am capable of. Now I'm not sure what my upper limit is, but I cant wait to find out what it is.

Then I'll up it a time or 2.

Or 3.

[Rugbyfanfla]

Carl is camping with his family right now and I suspect well into his Budweiser's. Good for him, srs lifter who I respect.

When I reached my "genetic potential" I went to my Doc and had my test checked. Lo and behold after 2 years of just killing the weights without any gains, I had the test level of a girl scout troop.

I made the necessary changes and my progress spiked up to where it should have been all along. Then I started actually lifting the weights I am capable of. Now I'm not sure what my upper limit is, but I cant wait to find out what it is.

Then I'll up it a time or 2.

Or 3.

Bando I'm curious, what changes you made. I'm supposed to get a blood test by my doc on Monday morning. I'll find out about a week later I guess.

[kcmoto]

Carl! You sir are awesome and deserve great respect. I think as you know I have been saying this since the time i have been on this site.

When I have the opportunity to answer a question about gains and potential....this is my usual response.

Everybody is different.....just like breeds of dogs....some people are Greyhounds...some are Boxers or Rotweilers....no matter how much a Greyhound works out with spot on routine and diet the Greyhound will never look like the Boxer. I like Boxers btw but pick a bigger dog for comparison purposes.....even with supplementation the Greyhound most likely will not compare. Thats just how it is.

What frustrates the hell out of me is the genetically bigger dogs (especially supplemented ones..that includes HRT) talking down to the smaller dogs saying things like calling out their lower weight or lesser physique because they are not like them......and truth be told the smaller dog may workout harder and smarter than the bigger!

Again Carl great respect! Thanks for keeping it real! Matt (Busta) you are exactly not what I just said....thanks for how you contribute on here.

[dpguy]

Carl it's exactly how I perceived the gym. Went there and didn't care for it. It's why I now have a home gym set up.

I wish I'd met more seasoned lifters like yourself, that appreciate others situations. But some (many actually) are numbnuts that believe their **** doesn't stink.

Back in around the year 2000 or 2001 when I was going regularly for about 4 years, there was this one guy who was a competitive bodybuilder, who would come in and he always wore a stringer top no matter if it was cold or not. So he always looked pretty intimidating.

One day he is in there and it's pretty crowded, and all of the benches were occupied, and for whatever reason he picks me out just after I finish my 1st set, and says "hey skinny ***got get off of that bench a real man needs to use it", and of course some of the guys start laughing. Even though I knew he was wrong, and I was embarrassed in front of the whole gym, I said "you can work in if you want", so I let him have the bench and he did his set. Then he turns around and says "you can just wait now *******". Thank god one of the other guys finished and said I could use theirs. I never went back to that gym ever again, and didn't workout for a week after that. That's why I now have my own home gym. Not going to subject myself to people like that again.

Sounds like a rotten gym. I promise they aren't all that way, although you will always have a few dumbasses who try to act like they run the place. I've had it happen to me once or twice, and in nearly every case they have been younger than me and I won't be intimidated by some stupid kid, not even if he's ten times my size.

I was doing dumbell flies one day, and this one of dude told me "don't drop the weights, they break" and I just stood straight up, looked him straight in the eye with a smirk on my face and said nothing. That was the first and last time he did that.

This other kid came up to me once and said "hey man you done doing shrugs on the squat rack?"


"Yeah man," I replied.


"Would you mind unloading the plates next time?"

I stopped doing hyper-extensions, froze, and looked him straight and the eye and said "and who the hell are you?"

This is the part where some idiot will jumps in and start lecturing me about proper gym etiquette. I will tell you that guys drop dumbbells on a daily basis and routinely leave barbells fully loaded (I know because I'm always having to unload them).

Neither one of these pricks who got on my case lectured anyone else about leaving their **** laying around or dropping weights. They couldn't say that I was making a habit of it because they had never seen me in the gym.

They targeted me because they perceived me as weaker, smaller, or whatever. And I let them know that I wasn't afraid of them and didn't give a damn what they thought.

Yeah, I normally unload plates when I'm done and yeah, I try not to drop dumbells, but sometimes you forget and sometimes, yes, you give out when you didn't expect to and they hit the floor. I know that plenty of guys do this stuff but they weren't lecturing plenty of guys, they chose to lecture me but they only did it once because of the way I handled it.