Hydrolyzed Whey vs Regular Whey?

[JohnMariettePT]

Kind of on topic kind of not. Just interesting, i honestly have no idea on this topic, just thought semi relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNgxBfWvIzE

[Hawks58]

Kind of on topic kind of not. Just interesting, i honestly have no idea on this topic, just thought semi relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNgxBfWvIzE

Can we get cliffs on it, or what part of this we are supposed to watch? Not sitting through 53 minutes of them. I just heard Egg Whites are not a great form of protein or highly digestive, that was the end of it for me. And typically with protein supplements pro's push whatever regime will give their company the most money.


I'm not saying I'm more knowledgeable then him, but the fact is when on camera, they are in it for the money. Rather we want to admit it or not, the supplement industry in Body Building is a giant hustle.

[BetterThanLife]

Added Aminos are useless? Please, do explain how added aminos in a protein shake is useless, especially BCAAs. I mean BCAAs are metabolized in the muscle as opposed to the liver so I would like to hear from you as to why added aminos, particularly BCAA, is useless. Explain away, my fellow bro scientist.

We've been over this before, so I know you're just getting your troll on and trying to drag me into an argument. There is no such thing as protein without aminos. If your diet has sufficient protein, it has sufficient BCAA. High-quality dietary protein contains 15-25% BCAA, so by getting an adequate amount of protein each day (as everyone should be), you are getting plenty of BCAAs. A maximal anabolic response per meal can be elicited by about 3-4 grams of leucine. According to Donald Layman (arguably the foremost expert on leucine and muscle anabolism), muscle protein synthesis is stimulated maximally with an oral leucine dose of 0.045-0.06g/kg (3-4g). This amount is easy to achieve from typical food sources, such as 6oz lean meat, fish, and poultry, or 1 cup cottage cheese, or 1.5 scoops of Trutein. Forcing extra BCAAs on top of a high-protein diet is simply a waste. This is because there's already an abundance of those compounds in the diet. There’s a limit to how much AA can be taken up by muscle per unit of time. Any amount of AA beyond what your body can use is.......... USELESS.

Can we get cliffs on it, or what part of this we are supposed to watch? Not sitting through 53 minutes of them. I just heard Egg Whites are not a great form of protein or highly digestive, that was the end of it for me. And typically with protein supplements pro's push whatever regime will give their company the most money.


I'm not saying I'm more knowledgeable then him, but the fact is when on camera, they are in it for the money. Rather we want to admit it or not, the supplement industry in Body Building is a giant hustle.

These guys are the reason newcomers worry about tiny little details, like the exact second to chug their hydrolyzed super whey. When you ask newcomers a simple question, like what’s your daily protein intake and how many calories are you eating, they can’t answer it.

[DannySampsonite]

I'd like to see some data that peptides don't enter the plasma because enterocytes use all of them. Sure, the lumenal end of enterocytes is constantly being sloughed off and requires protein synthesis to make up for the lost portions, but you aren't going to have a supraphysiological demand for protein synthesis simply because proteins were digested ex vivo rather than by trypsins.

bump

[beastmode47]

We've been over this before, so I know you're just getting your troll on and trying to drag me into an argument. There is no such thing as protein without aminos. If your diet has sufficient protein, it has sufficient BCAA. High-quality dietary protein contains 15-25% BCAA, so by getting an adequate amount of protein each day (as everyone should be), you are getting plenty of BCAAs. A maximal anabolic response per meal can be elicited by about 3-4 grams of leucine. According to Donald Layman (arguably the foremost expert on leucine and muscle anabolism), muscle protein synthesis is stimulated maximally with an oral leucine dose of 0.045-0.06g/kg (3-4g). This amount is easy to achieve from typical food sources, such as 6oz lean meat, fish, and poultry, or 1 cup cottage cheese, or 1.5 scoops of Trutein. Forcing extra BCAAs on top of a high-protein diet is simply a waste. This is because there's already an abundance of those compounds in the diet. There’s a limit to how much AA can be taken up by muscle per unit of time. Any amount of AA beyond what your body can use is.......... USELESS.

These guys are the reason newcomers worry about tiny little details, like the exact second to chug their hydrolyzed super whey. When you ask newcomers a simple question, like what’s your daily protein intake and how many calories are you eating, they can’t answer it.

So you're telling me that Tru Nutrition Sciences is lying on their website when they say 4g of Lecune is the minimum amount for optimal protein synthesis?

[DannySampsonite]

Any amount of AA beyond what your body can use is.......... USELESS.

There is no such thing as this situation. If nitrogen balance is met or exceeded, amino acids can be used for gluconeogenesis or ketogenesis.

[beastmode47]

There is no such thing as this situation. If nitrogen balance is met or exceeded, amino acids can be used for gluconeogenesis or ketogenesis.

Yeah, it's not as if amino acids are used only for the sole purpose of repairing damaged muscle cells. Amino acids are used for an abundant of other purposes in the human body. That's why supplementing with BCAA when under a Caloric deficient diet is extremely helpful because these BCAAs are almost like glycogen. These BCAAs will be the first to get metabolized before your body starts breaking down muscle protein.

[DannySampsonite]

Yeah, it's not as if amino acids are used only for the sole purpose of repairing damaged muscle cells. Amino acids are used for an abundant of other purposes in the human body. That's why supplementing with BCAA when under a Caloric deficient diet is extremely helpful because these BCAAs are almost like glycogen. These BCAAs will be the first to get metabolized before your body starts breaking down muscle protein.

This is actually true, but you know what else would have the exact same endpoint: carbs.

[BetterThanLife]

So you're telling me that Tru Nutrition Sciences is lying on their website when they say 4g of Lecune is the minimum amount for optimal protein synthesis?

I knew you liked lounging on the truscience website . Nice try, but it says that it's best to consume a complete protein that contains about 4g of Leucine (based upon a 200lb[90kg] individual, or about 1g Leucine per 50lbs[22kg] bodyweight), which is right in line with my recommendation.

There is no such thing as this situation. If nitrogen balance is met or exceeded, amino acids can be used for gluconeogenesis or ketogenesis.

Every time you post, you expect everyone to take your word for it. If I did that, I'd be believing the same things that beastmode47 believes. There’s a limit to how much AA can be taken up by muscle per unit of time. Anything beyond this will merely increase AA oxidation and/or deamination without any increase in net muscle protein synthesis. There’s nothing showing any benefit of excessive dosing. BCAAs are very glucogenic and they will most likely end up in your bloodstream as glucose. Thus, adding BCAAs on top of a diet containing adequate protein is literally a waste. If you have any research in favor of equal amounts free form BCAA over protein-bound BCAA under adequate total protein amounts, don't hesitate to post it. Although what you're saying is that there's no such thing as too much amino acids, so we should keep sipping BCAAs and our muscles would continue growing and growing? Same with protein, BCAAs get to a point where consuming more has no added benefit.

[beastmode47]

I knew you liked lounging on the truscience website . Nice try, but it says that it's best to consume a complete protein that contains about 4g of Leucine (based upon a 200lb[90kg] individual, or about 1g Leucine per 50lbs[22kg] bodyweight), which is right in line with my recommendation.

Every time you post, you expect everyone to take your word for it. If I did that, I'd be believing the same things that beastmode47 believes. There’s a limit to how much AA can be taken up by muscle per unit of time. Anything beyond this will merely increase AA oxidation and/or deamination without any increase in net muscle protein synthesis. There’s nothing showing any benefit of excessive dosing. BCAAs are very glucogenic and they will most likely end up in your bloodstream as glucose. Thus, adding BCAAs on top of a diet containing adequate protein is literally a waste. If you have any research in favor of equal amounts free form BCAA over protein-bound BCAA under adequate total protein amounts, don't hesitate to post it. Although what you're saying is that there's no such thing as too much amino acids, so we should keep sipping BCAAs and our muscles would continue growing and growing? Same with protein, BCAAs get to a point where consuming more has no added benefit.

I like to do my reading. I take everything with a grain of salt.

[DannySampsonite]

Every time you post, you expect everyone to take your word for it. If I did that, I'd be believing the same things that beastmode47 believes. There’s a limit to how much AA can be taken up by muscle per unit of time. Anything beyond this will merely increase AA oxidation and/or deamination without any increase in net muscle protein synthesis. There’s nothing showing any benefit of excessive dosing. BCAAs are very glucogenic and they will most likely end up in your bloodstream as glucose. Thus, when getting adequate protein in the diet, adding more BCAAs is literally a waste. If you have any research in favor of equal amounts free form BCAA over protein-bound BCAA under adequate total protein amounts, don't hesitate to post it. Although what you're saying is that there's no such thing as too much amino acids, so we should keep sipping BCAAs and our muscles would continue growing and growing? Same with protein, BCAAs get to a point where consuming more has no added benefit.

I couldn't give a **** about whether my word is taken or not. Unlike you, I in no way profit from posting here.

I didn't say a word about amino acids being taken up by muscle. If you consume an excess of amino acids, they will be deaminated and the carbon chains will go through gluconeogenesis or ketosis. Thank you for repeating what I just said.

Next: leucine, the "main" BCAA, is KETOGENIC (and isl is both). So wrong again.

Why are you bringing up some random argument about free form vs bound BCAAs? I agree that free form poses no advantage in humans outside of ergogenesis. My comments were addressing this whole "waste" nonsense that you keep throwing around. If amino acids are used to generate glucose or ketone bodies, then they are effectively glucose-sparing, which isn't a bad thing at all.

Do you honestly think all 160 grams of protein you're eating are going to muscle protein synthesis? Dietary protein provides only a minor source of amino acids for MPS on a daily basis; proteolysis in the body is the primary source. So if MPS occurs maximally at far less protein than you consume daily, why do you consume so much? Because there's much, much more to protein than MPS.

[beastmode47]

I knew you liked lounging on the truscience website . Nice try, but it says that it's best to consume a complete protein that contains about 4g of Leucine (based upon a 200lb[90kg] individual, or about 1g Leucine per 50lbs[22kg] bodyweight), which is right in line with my recommendation.

Every time you post, you expect everyone to take your word for it. If I did that, I'd be believing the same things that beastmode47 believes. There’s a limit to how much AA can be taken up by muscle per unit of time. Anything beyond this will merely increase AA oxidation and/or deamination without any increase in net muscle protein synthesis. There’s nothing showing any benefit of excessive dosing. BCAAs are very glucogenic and they will most likely end up in your bloodstream as glucose. Thus, adding BCAAs on top of a diet containing adequate protein is literally a waste. If you have any research in favor of equal amounts free form BCAA over protein-bound BCAA under adequate total protein amounts, don't hesitate to post it. Although what you're saying is that there's no such thing as too much amino acids, so we should keep sipping BCAAs and our muscles would continue growing and growing? Same with protein, BCAAs get to a point where consuming more has no added benefit.

This is what it says on your beloved company's website: "Suggested PWO Leucine Intake for Greatest Muscle Growth is 4-5g". They also speak of an optimal anabolic time window. I guess Tru Nutrition Sciences, a company with so much "integrity", is lying as well. I mean after all, you did say that anabolic time window is a myth, and that drinking your protein as soon as you get up with no protein post workout/pre workout will yield the exact same results as drinking a pre workout or post workout protein shake.

[BetterThanLife]

I couldn't give a **** about whether my word is taken or not. Unlike you, I in no way profit from posting here.

I didn't say a word about amino acids being taken up by muscle. If you consume an excess of amino acids, they will be deaminated and the carbon chains will go through gluconeogenesis or ketosis. Thank you for repeating what I just said.

Next: leucine, the "main" BCAA, is KETOGENIC (and isl is both). So wrong again.

Why are you bringing up some random argument about free form vs bound BCAAs? I agree that free form poses no advantage in humans outside of ergogenesis. My comments were addressing this whole "waste" nonsense that you keep throwing around. If amino acids are used to generate glucose or ketone bodies, then they are effectively glucose-sparing, which isn't a bad thing at all.

Do you honestly think all 160 grams of protein you're eating are going to muscle protein synthesis? Dietary protein provides only a minor source of amino acids for MPS on a daily basis; proteolysis in the body is the primary source. So if MPS occurs maximally at far less protein than you consume daily, why do you consume so much? Because there's much, much more to protein than MPS.

We are going around in circles, because my response to this would be reiterating what I have already said in previous posts. If protein requirements are met for the day, I don't know what benefit (body comp changes, performance effects) you're seeing by adding more BCAAs... or why that would be different than adding more protein. Considering you contested my assertion that a protein powder with an additional 2-3 grams of BCAAs per serving yields no magic, I assumed you had some sort of reasoning. After all, you could just consume a little bit more of a cheaper protein and get an extra 2-3 grams of BCAAs that way.

[BetterThanLife]

This is what it says on your beloved company's website: "Suggested PWO Leucine Intake for Greatest Muscle Growth is 4-5g". They also speak of an optimal anabolic time window. I guess Tru Nutrition Sciences, a company with so much "integrity", is lying as well. I mean after all, you did say that anabolic time window is a myth, and that drinking your protein as soon as you get up with no protein post workout/pre workout will yield the exact same results as drinking a pre workout or post workout protein shake.

Since you’re still emphasizing the significance of what’s in your post-workout shake, I obviously haven’t been clear up to this point. I don't think it makes a meaningful difference whether you consume whey, casein, a protein blend, or a whole food meal after workouts. This is because it's only a fraction of your entire diet. If you're getting enough total daily protein from a variety of high-quality sources, one shake is not going to make or break your gains. The whole deal with protein quality has been blown way out of proportion. Unless we’re talking about eating small amounts of poor quality protein every day, it’s essentially irrelevant. For people eating large amounts of protein from high-quality/mixed sources, their choice in protein powder is not a critical issue to worry about, unless they are planning to make it their sole source of protein. The differences in speed, digestion efficiency, and amino acids among high-quality proteins cease to be an issue.

I stress the importance of total caloric intake over timing because the best pattern of nutrient intake is unclear and open to speculation. Compared to nailing your macro targets for the day, the precise timing and distribution of specific nutrients around the training session will make little measurable difference. However, failing to meet nutritional needs will be detrimental to strength and body composition in the long term. Unfortunately, many people think that drinking a muscle building potion after workouts is all that matters, and they ignore their daily caloric intake. This is why the opening question in this thread regarding two protein powders is, "What is better and what is the difference?" The difference is merely price and taste. If anything is to be said regarding the types of protein, research suggests that hydrolysates are less effective and a combination of slow and fast proteins after a workout is ideal. Numerous studies show that slower proteins generate more long-term growth in terms of lean body mass gains, and people forget that casein > whey for actual leucine retention. In the absence of head-to-head comparisons, I think any further speculation here would be useless wanking. Besides, how close are people to maximum genetic potential that they think any of this will make a bit of difference in their results? People believe that finding the perfect digestion speed of their post-workout protein shake is the difference between getting jacked and not. I’m sorry, that’s not what determines whether or not someone is going to make progress.

Getting the right amount of protein each day remains the primary objective, and the rest is just nitpicking toward what might hypothetically clinch that extremely narrow edge. A wise man once said that total protein is the cake, and timing is the icing. Plenty of damn good cakes can be made without icing.

[Hawks58]

...

Comes a time when you just have to accept that you're wasting your time. Either RyanRodrigo/beastmode is actually a good troll....or really really really really really really dense.

[Swamp Dog]

Since you’re still emphasizing the significance of what’s in your post-workout shake, I obviously haven’t been clear up to this point. I don't think it makes a meaningful difference whether you consume whey, casein, a protein blend, or a whole food meal after workouts. This is because it's only a fraction of your entire diet. If you're getting enough total daily protein from a variety of high-quality sources, one shake is not going to make or break your gains. The whole deal with protein quality has been blown way out of proportion. Unless we’re talking about eating small amounts of poor quality protein every day, it’s essentially irrelevant. For people eating large amounts of protein from high-quality/mixed sources, their choice in protein powder is not a critical issue to worry about, unless they are planning to make it their sole source of protein. The differences in speed, digestion efficiency, and amino acids among high-quality proteins cease to be an issue.

I stress the importance of total caloric intake over timing because the best pattern of nutrient intake is unclear and open to speculation. Compared to nailing your macro targets for the day, the precise timing and distribution of specific nutrients around the training session will make little measurable difference. However, failing to meet nutritional needs will be detrimental to strength and body composition in the long term. Unfortunately, many people think that drinking a muscle building potion after workouts is all that matters, and they ignore their daily caloric intake. This is why the opening question in this thread regarding two protein powders is, "What is better and what is the difference?" The difference is merely price and taste. If anything is to be said regarding the types of protein, research suggests that hydrolysates are less effective and a combination of slow and fast proteins after a workout is ideal. Numerous studies show that slower proteins generate more long-term growth in terms of lean body mass gains, and people forget that casein > whey for actual leucine retention. In the absence of head-to-head comparisons, I think any further speculation here would be useless wanking. Besides, how close are people to maximum genetic potential that they think any of this will make a bit of difference in their results? People believe that finding the perfect digestion speed of their post-workout protein shake is the difference between getting jacked and not. I’m sorry, that’s not what determines whether or not someone is going to make progress.

Getting the right amount of protein each day remains the primary objective, and the rest is just nitpicking toward what might hypothetically clinch that extremely narrow edge. A wise man once said that total protein is the cake, and timing is the icing. Plenty of damn good cakes can be made without icing.

[JohnMariettePT]

Can we get cliffs on it, or what part of this we are supposed to watch? Not sitting through 53 minutes of them. I just heard Egg Whites are not a great form of protein or highly digestive, that was the end of it for me. And typically with protein supplements pro's push whatever regime will give their company the most money.


I'm not saying I'm more knowledgeable then him, but the fact is when on camera, they are in it for the money. Rather we want to admit it or not, the supplement industry in Body Building is a giant hustle.

Yep just noticed i failed to write the spot i think it was later in the video will find it soon and edit.

[Powerthrough4]

The short answer: hydrolyzed protein loses on every count. ]

I appreciate you and the others for their input on this. I actually read everything, although I'm not as advanced as some of the terms that were used so it had me somewhat lost. From what I understand if I get my daily protein intake it shouldn't matter. But with two people with conflicting "facts" how am I supposed to believe one or the other. In the morning and after workouts should I have a gold standard whey shake or hyrdo whey? That is all.

[BigBoLuke93]

I appreciate you and the others for their input on this. I actually read everything, although I'm not as advanced as some of the terms that were used so it had me somewhat lost. From what I understand if I get my daily protein intake it shouldn't matter. But with two people with conflicting "facts" how am I supposed to believe one or the other. In the morning and after workouts should I have a gold standard whey shake or hyrdo whey? That is all.

Seeing as how everyone was disagreeing with/disproving beastmode's stubborn stance for Hydrowhey - the simple answer to your question is it does not matter.

Timing of protein intake doesn't matter. Get it in when you are hungry or feel like you need protein, or need to reach your macros.

Hydrowhey proves no benefit, and only drains your wallet faster. Pick up a regular Whey, or a blend, and use that for all of your supplemental protein needs.

[beastmode47]

I appreciate you and the others for their input on this. I actually read everything, although I'm not as advanced as some of the terms that were used so it had me somewhat lost. From what I understand if I get my daily protein intake it shouldn't matter. But with two people with conflicting "facts" how am I supposed to believe one or the other. In the morning and after workouts should I have a gold standard whey shake or hyrdo whey? That is all.

Dude, I say you do a little trial and error. Try one type for one month. See where that type of whey gets you. The next month, try the other. I've gone through different types of whey and protein (from food protein, to blend protein, to whey isolate, then to hydrolyzed whey) during the past eight years. I understand that the supplement industry can get very confusing so the best thing you could do is trial and error.

If money is an issue, stick with cheap ass protein. Money is not an issue for me, as long as what I buy is high quality, reputable, and works to my advantage.

As far as when to take your protein, that is also another debatable one. Many folks here on bodybuilding.com forums believe that the timing is not important at all.

[UmWhyBanned]

Seeing as how everyone was disagreeing with/disproving beastmode's stubborn stance for Hydrowhey - the simple answer to your question is it does not matter.

Timing of protein intake doesn't matter. Get it in when you are hungry or feel like you need protein, or need to reach your macros.

Hydrowhey proves no benefit, and only drains your wallet faster. Pick up a regular Whey, or a blend, and use that for all of your supplemental protein needs.

If training fasted, there is a pretty well-documented benefit to pre or postworkout protein.

[beastmode47]

If training fasted, there is a pretty well-documented benefit to pre or postworkout protein.

Don't tell him that. He'll get pissed. There's some type of coolness factor when one says "timing of protein intake is insignificant".