why do personal trainers also have their "clients" use non sense exercises

[squat4speed]

I see it so much in the gym, preacher curl machine and other useless exercises (exercises for biceps, isolation tricep exercises) is almost always used by like..at least...6-7 trainers with a large variety of clients over time. I've heard similar things from other people from other gyms.

I also do see leg press and all that get used, the idea is, TONS of useless exercises. Why not squats? deadlifts!? bench press? rows?

[bigfrog]

I also do see leg press and all that get used, the idea is, TONS of useless exercises. Why not squats? deadlifts!? bench press? rows?

Because so many of our clients cannot do those exercises with good form and safely. Also, many aren't interested in being a bodybuilder. They just want to be healthy.
Once they progress into the exercises, then we can add the exercises you mentioned. But safety ALWAYS comes first.... If they are an experienced lifter, then we may use those exercises, but the others we use have their place and reason.

[squat4speed]

Wouldnt taking a bit of time to teach them how to bench press? deadlifts? one arm seated rows? barbell rows? and some other easier to learn compounds, be more beneficial in the long run? The benefits of isolation bicep exercises vs. full body compounds is pretty obvious, so why not take some time to teach them? IF there 300 pounds of fat...thats a different story. If they're not, teach them?

One other things, why do PTs, (not all, maybe about half) emphasize doing leg press and etc. as opposed to squats for someone like myself (talked to lots of PTs over time out of curiosity on what they'd say. And one even said to use the chest press machine as opposed to bench press because "you can get more weight up."

[D1-FS-19]

Wouldnt taking a bit of time to teach them how to bench press? deadlifts? one arm seated rows? barbell rows? and some other easier to learn compounds, be more beneficial in the long run? The benefits of isolation bicep exercises vs. full body compounds is pretty obvious, so why not take some time to teach them? IF there 300 pounds of fat...thats a different story. If they're not, teach them?

One other things, why do PTs, (not all, maybe about half) emphasize doing leg press and etc. as opposed to squats for someone like myself (talked to lots of PTs over time out of curiosity on what they'd say. And one even said to use the chest press machine as opposed to bench press because "you can get more weight up."

Because quite frankly, a lot of the personal trainers out there suck. You couldn't answer this question on your own??? This topic has been beaten to death. And just because one time you trained your best friend or your girlfriend or your mom does not qualify you as a personal trainer.

[DoItUp]

I agree that alot of the isolation exercises done for the biceps and triceps are a waste of time. but like BigFrog said most clients are unable to perform the exercises because of the lack of stabilizer and secondary muscle strength. Maybe 1 out of 10 clients that I train in the gym would be capable of trying a squat. You need to work the core area first and work with DB's to build up their balance and strength befor ehtey willbe capable of doing a deadlift without slipping a disc. Aswell alot of clients have joint issues or past injuries that disable them from doing these exercises.

I also agree with bigfrog, alot of people do not want to be bodybuilders or powerlifters. not that I'm saying that those exercises can only be done by those 2 tpes of athletes, but you try to convince a 55 year old man with a high risk of CVD to stack a bar and start doing deadlifts. He'll never come back.

[unauthorized]

"safety"

[skarotum]

I see it so much in the gym, preacher curl machine and other useless exercises (exercises for biceps, isolation tricep exercises) is almost always used by like..at least...6-7 trainers with a large variety of clients over time. I've heard similar things from other people from other gyms.

I also do see leg press and all that get used, the idea is, TONS of useless exercises. Why not squats? deadlifts!? bench press? rows?

That is where a good personal trainer should start anyone who is previously untrained and not used to exercise. Obviously you are not one or you would have learned that safety is first. Not to mention if you have joe blow on his first day and get him doing squats and dead lifts right out of the gate, he won't be coming back. Clients should be given exercises they can easily get the hang of so as not to discourage them and progress from there.
Therefore, the issue is your ignorance, not the trainers. And I agree there are a lot of bad ones out there, but your argument is against trainers doing things properly.


Edit: Just noticed you are 15. lol I can't believe I just wasted time trying to reason with a 15 year old. The ignorance makes sense now.

[rnaco]

Becuase a great majority of trainers don't know what they are doing.

[Darren in Gym]

That is where a good personal trainer should start anyone who is previously untrained and not used to exercise. Obviously you are not one or you would have learned that safety is first. Not to mention if you have joe blow on his first day and get him doing squats and dead lifts right out of the gate, he won't be coming back. Clients should be given exercises they can easily get the hang of so as not to discourage them and progress from there.
Therefore, the issue is your ignorance, not the trainers. And I agree there are a lot of bad ones out there, but your argument is against trainers doing things properly.


Edit: Just noticed you are 15. lol I can't believe I just wasted time trying to reason with a 15 year old. The ignorance makes sense now.

agreed, not everyone wants to be a bodybuilder/powerlifter/even an athlete, some people just want to get into the gym to lose some fat and gain a little muscle, to get healthier. If ur training someone to be a BB,PL or for sports etc... then yeah you got to get them on those exercises. But other then that most people arnt even interested, so whats the point

[flexapeal]

You have to keep in mind that you can put some people on a treadmill for 10 min and they think they are really doing something. So if the clients doesn't know any better, they don't have a clue.

[rude boy]

way to have a one-track, closed mind. i realize you're 15.. you'll become less ignorant as you grow older. until then, think a little before you offer such stupid opinions

[DamuPiru]

I lol'd.

[Al Shades]

I see it so much in the gym, preacher curl machine and other useless exercises (exercises for biceps, isolation tricep exercises) is almost always used by like..at least...6-7 trainers with a large variety of clients over time. I've heard similar things from other people from other gyms.

I also do see leg press and all that get used, the idea is, TONS of useless exercises. Why not squats? deadlifts!? bench press? rows?

You're apparently hooked on the notion that "free weights/compounds are better than machines".

Free weights and compounds aren't better than machines. Not for hypertrophy. Not for aesthetics-oriented training. Isolation is precisely what you want.

When I clicked on this thread I was expecting to see you talking about "useless exercises" involving swiss balls, balance boards, bosu's and stuff like that. I could have agreed with you then. I can't agree with you now. Leg press machine isn't useless. Biceps curl machine isn't useless. They are the most effective exercises for targetting the legs and arms, respectively.

And by the way, mainstream PT's hate machine training so I have no idea what you observed. They may put a beginner on a machine circuit but they'll soon take them off that and want to put them on swiss balls.

[Al Shades]

Edit: Just noticed you are 15. lol I can't believe I just wasted time trying to reason with a 15 year old. The ignorance makes sense now.

I have read 10 times more ignorant statements from people 3 times his age on this board and all over the net.

agreed, not everyone wants to be a bodybuilder/powerlifter/even an athlete, some people just want to get into the gym to lose some fat and gain a little muscle, to get healthier. If ur training someone to be a BB,PL or for sports etc... then yeah you got to get them on those exercises. But other then that most people arnt even interested, so whats the point

Nobody who hires a PT "wants to become a bodybuilder", but nearly everyone who hires a PT wants to improve their body composition. What is bodybuilding, exactly? It's the sport of improving one's body composition. The take home point is that nearly EVERYONE needs to train "like a bodybuilder" in order to reach their goals. People who want to improve their appearance need to use isolation exercises on machines.

[SHOWTIME]

lol You consider the leg press useless? Also Bicep exercises, ex. BB curl useless?

lol
Good luck in your future. It will not be as a PT.

[bigfrog]

I agree that alot of the isolation exercises done for the biceps and triceps are a waste of time. but like BigFrog said most clients are unable to perform the exercises because of the lack of stabilizer and secondary muscle strength. Maybe 1 out of 10 clients that I train in the gym would be capable of trying a squat. You need to work the core area first and work with DB's to build up their balance and strength befor ehtey willbe capable of doing a deadlift without slipping a disc. Aswell alot of clients have joint issues or past injuries that disable them from doing these exercises.

I also agree with bigfrog, alot of people do not want to be bodybuilders or powerlifters. not that I'm saying that those exercises can only be done by those 2 tpes of athletes, but you try to convince a 55 year old man with a high risk of CVD to stack a bar and start doing deadlifts. He'll never come back.

Thank you..

[D1-FS-19]

You're apparently hooked on the notion that "free weights/compounds are better than machines".

Free weights and compounds aren't better than machines. Not for hypertrophy. Not for aesthetics-oriented training. Isolation is precisely what you want.

When I clicked on this thread I was expecting to see you talking about "useless exercises" involving swiss balls, balance boards, bosu's and stuff like that. I could have agreed with you then. I can't agree with you now. Leg press machine isn't useless. Biceps curl machine isn't useless. They are the most effective exercises for targetting the legs and arms, respectively.

You have got to be kidding me.

[squat4speed]

I have read 10 times more ignorant statements from people 3 times his age on this board and all over the net.



Nobody who hires a PT "wants to become a bodybuilder", but nearly everyone who hires a PT wants to improve their body composition. What is bodybuilding, exactly? It's the sport of improving one's body composition. The take home point is that nearly EVERYONE needs to train "like a bodybuilder" in order to reach their goals. People who want to improve their appearance need to use isolation exercises on machines.

really? i dont see anyone with good appearance using machines? look at me...i never use isolation exercises ever.

You have got to be kidding me.

lmfao.

You're apparently hooked on the notion that "free weights/compounds are better than machines".

Free weights and compounds aren't better than machines. Not for hypertrophy. Not for aesthetics-oriented training. Isolation is precisely what you want.

When I clicked on this thread I was expecting to see you talking about "useless exercises" involving swiss balls, balance boards, bosu's and stuff like that. I could have agreed with you then. I can't agree with you now. Leg press machine isn't useless. Biceps curl machine isn't useless. They are the most effective exercises for targetting the legs and arms, respectively.

And by the way, mainstream PT's hate machine training so I have no idea what you observed. They may put a beginner on a machine circuit but they'll soon take them off that and want to put them on swiss balls.

honestly..WTF

[DoItUp]

Isolation exercises are not limited to just machines. There are other exercises done with DB's that isolate a muscle ie: concentrated curls

And I don't agree with saying that everyone needs to train like a bodybuilder to reach their goal. A power lifter trains like a power lifter, and endurance athlete ie: triathlete trains like an endurance athlete not a body builder. Aswell an older client who wants to better improve their balance for being able to perform daily tasks easier will not be training like a bodybuilder.

I'm not a big fan of machines If the client can do it safely then I use DB's to help build up their balance aswell. I just would never throw a client who's uncapable under a BB to squat. And working with a client for mutliple sessions on how to squat or deadlift just so they can do it safely is not going to keep them coming back. many people do not pick up how to do a squat in a couple minutes. If they are just starting to weight train then they will usually take hours to perfect.

Squat4Speed,
Just because you do not use isolation exercises does not mean that they're unaffective. Watch cutler or coleman train they will both use the bicep curl machine. Like I said isolation exercises can also be done with DB's. I'm pretty sure big ronnie didn't get big Bi's from taking steroids and doing rows all day. The DB curls he does (isolation exercise) I think have a little bit to do with it, aswell as the other iso exercises he's doing. O yah and the roids-they help a little

[Laxer311]

In this day in age where everyone is very sue happy personal trainers have to be extremely careful. I used to think the way the op did at first when my dad got one. But then i realized that he was 50 years old hes not some young kid who can have no knowledge of lifting read a book and start squating. His body could not just jump into that. Smart Trainers build their clients up to that level and yes eventually they do, do squats and deads. If a trainer throws a 60 year old man into squating his first day doing excersise in years hes bound to get sued.

[bigfrog]

Squat4Speed,
Just because you do not use isolation exercises does not mean that they're unaffective. Watch cutler or coleman train they will both use the bicep curl machine. Like I said isolation exercises can also be done with DB's. I'm pretty sure big ronnie didn't get big Bi's from taking steroids and doing rows all day. The DB curls he does (isolation exercise) I think have a little bit to do with it, aswell as the other iso exercises he's doing. O yah and the roids-they help a little

So true man. Download Cutler's videos.
True about different training too. Have to be "open minded". You'll get there eventually S4S...

[Rap_Rocky]

"safety"

that pretty much sums it up for me...

[Al Shades]

really? i dont see anyone with good appearance using machines? look at me...i never use isolation exercises ever.

Excuse me, this is BodyBuilding.com. Are you seriously unaware of the fact that the majority of pro bodybuilders use machines and isolation exercises?

Very few pro BB'ers squat, bench or dead. This isn't powerlifting or pro football. Machines and isolation exercises are simply better for targetted hypertrophy.

You have got to be kidding me.

Not a chance. I have been strongly defending and advocating machine isolation training on the net for years. A search through my post history will reveal it.

The likelyhood of getting the general public to adopt a "meat and potatoes" routine based around basic compounds is absolutely nill. This should not even be open to debate. It is a total non-issue.

As a PT, you can either use machines and train people according to bodybuilding principles or you can turn in your balls and become one of the Bosu-BS trainers. Those are your only options. Housewives and obese people aren't going to go anywhere near the big 3, and if they do, the effort will be wasted because they will make no effort to acquire the proper technique and progress in weight.

That is why when I clicked on the thread I expected to read a tirade against Swiss Ball trainers, which most of these threads turn out to be. Instead, I got a tirade against machines from some powerlifter meathead. Thanks, but take it to the PL section next time.

Your observations are not representative of the PT industry as a whole. This industry left machine based training behind in the 80's. All certifying bodies are now on board with the "functional" dogma and that is what the vast majority of trainers out there are doing. The fact that I endorse machine training does not make me a "typical PT", it actually makes me an outspoken minority in this field. NASM, ACE, NSCA, etc are all anti-machine, go read their curriculum.

Get your facts straight. Be sure that your stereotypes are accurate before you make them.

[rnaco]

Most clients don't want to be bodybuilders. Most clients don't want to be powerlifters. There is no "bad" exercise--just misapplied exercises. Remember--anything is better than nothing.

[Mr.ILL]

. I can't agree with you now. Leg press machine isn't useless. Biceps curl machine isn't useless. They are the most effective exercises for targetting the legs and arms, respectively.

I disagree.

[Dr.Adam]

A lot of the machines are goofy imo. But, some of them are good to throw on a light day to mix things up. Today I did supersets on the pec deck after I did machine press and dumbbell incline.

I was tore up from that. I think it is great to switch it up, granted I do front squats/legsled, barbbell row/and so on twice a week (light days and heavy days).

I can't imagine doing nothing but machines, but I can see merit for all of us in using different machines every now and then to change things up.

[Al Shades]

Most clients don't want to be bodybuilders. Most clients don't want to be powerlifters. There is no "bad" exercise--just misapplied exercises. Remember--anything is better than nothing.

Most clients, when you cut through their feel-good BS about "being healthy" and "feeling better" and "having more energy" and "being able to keep up with my kids" and other nonsense, simply want to LOOK BETTER. That's IT. There is NO ONE who would complain if you helped them get a flat stomach and nearly everyone who hires a PT would consider that a good return on investment.

In fact, nearly every recreational gym-goer is doing it for cosmetic purposes above anything else. But people have major guilt issues with admitting this simple fact, so they mask their goals in all sorts of window dressing, the likes of which I described above. This makes them unfocused and prevents coaches from truly helping them. It is a form of self-destructive behavior if you can't even admit to yourself that you are in the gym because you want to look better. Women, especially, have this problem. They're all there because they think they're fat yet absolutely none of them will admit that improving appearance is the primary goal of their training. They say things like, "I want to be healthy for my kids". Well, go to a damn doctor, because I'm not licensed to cure illnesses. The point is, if you do not "read between the lines" with these people you will waste their time and your own on prescribing them useless programs.

That is why I have a policy of essentially treating people like 5 year olds until they prove to me that they are responsible enough to be treated as adults. Doctors, lawyers, and other professionals do this constantly, and PT's ought to as well.

I assume that nearly everyone who comes in needs to be put on a bodybuilding style split in order to improve their appearance. The only exceptions are people who are actively participating in sports.

No member of the general public is going to complain if you make them look better.

As I have said time and time again, most clients are pathetic when they come in and no idea what they want or how to get there. They are all over the place. You need to shut them up, sit them down, and tell them exactly what to do until they develop enough discipline to handle things on their own. Clients are fundamentally children and should be treated as children, even if they are 60 years old. This process must occur without them becoming aware of it.

Here is what people want:
Men want strong looking arms, shoulders, and pecs
Women want to have thin waists, thighs and small asses

That is it. For all the mountains of BS and the life-stories that you will encounter, people's goals can pretty much be narrowed down to the two sentences above.

The question then becomes how best to achieve them.

When I say "train like a bodybuilder" I mean train according to bodybuilding principles. In other words, do everything that people on this site take for granted:

1) Look to body composition, not body weight as the benchmark of progress

2) Recognize the critical impact that "time away from the gym" has on body composition by adhering to proper rest and dietary protocols

3) Calculate your macro's and calorie consumption and know your maintenance requirements so that you are not stumbling around in the dark with respect to your diet

4) Train to exhaustion on a regular basis. Sets should be taken to failure wherever possible. This is the only way to know whether you are using "enough weight", which is a typical newbie question.

5) Understand the principles of energy balance and use them. Recognize that you need a caloric deficit in order to lose weight and a surplus to gain.

All of these ideas are considered "radical" by Organized Medicine and other clueless bodies. Yet bodybuilders have been using them successfully for decades.

Bodybuilders are the only athletes on the planet who routinely shed dozens of pounds of fat and come on stage ripped and bone dry. Normal people would kill for this ability, even if they don't know it.

That's all that "training like a bodybuilder" entails. I'm not sure why people seem to think it means deadlifting 800 lbs. like Ronnie Coleman in The Unbelievable.

So, I'll say it again:

95% of the general public would be best off training like bodybuilders. Yes, that goes for your obese grandmother. She needs body recomposition (gain muscle, lose fat) and that is exactly what bodybuilding is all about.

[Al Shades]

I disagree.

That's fine. Just know that you're also disagreeing with people like Dorian Yates and many other pro BB'ers and coaches:

"Then, squatting on a Smith machine, I could position my body so it was much more isolated on the quads, less glutes and lower back involvement, didn't have to worry about the balance aspect. Actually my legs improved a lot when I was doing Smith squats, hack squats, leg presses ? I could isolate the thighs a lot more. So actually I used the Smith machine quite a bit for squatting." - Dorian

"Training with heavy loads and low volume (sets x reps) is the best way to get hard and strong, but not big. Muscular hypertrophy is generally a response to a high volume work output; therefore, by keeping the sets and reps low with heavy training, you wont have to fear getting overly big."
- John Berardi

"I'm sorry powerlifting coaches, your DVDs about how to shorten the distance the bar has to travel so I can bench more weight just don't apply much to me. I don't compete, and I only bench to build my chest, triceps, and other pushing muscles. I want a long range of motion because it makes me work harder and helps to build more muscle. - Chris Shugart"

"Ignore the critics, cables and machines build huge arms." - Contract Killer on BB.com

"Sorry performance coaches, but curling works, at least as far as bodybuilding is concerned. So do leg presses and several machine exercises. I get tired of hearing performance coaches bash training techniques and exercises that have built thousands of great physiques over the years. These exercises may not be "functional" or carry over to sports, but they build muscle, and that's good enough for the aesthetic bodybuilder." -Chris Shugart

"Exactly. But the young kids typically are going by heavier weights = huge muscles bull**** they get from others at school. Once a kid starts to put on some decent weight and attains a decent mind muscle connection is all about refining and using the weight properly. Not just piling more of it on."
-DiamondDelts BB.com Mod

"This AIN'T ninth grade and no one gives a **** how much you bench" - Will Harris

Let the truth be told: Going heavy with basic movements is NOT the best way to gain muscle.

[call_me_pops]

I see it so much in the gym, preacher curl machine and other useless exercises (exercises for biceps, isolation tricep exercises) is almost always used by like..at least...6-7 trainers with a large variety of clients over time. I've heard similar things from other people from other gyms.

I also do see leg press and all that get used, the idea is, TONS of useless exercises. Why not squats? deadlifts!? bench press? rows?

I think the first thing you must do is define "useless exercises." What you consider "useless" to you may not be "useless" to someone else.

When designing programs, trainers should consider a number of variables. Including the needs of the client (eg weightloss, bodybuilding, athletic performance enhancement), the profile of the client (ie are they prepared to begin a new routine/exercise, training background, exercise technique experience, injury status, muscle imbalances.) Other factors that may play a part in exercise selection include availability of equipment and time available per session. There are obviously other factors too. Once these variables and factors are considered there will be exercises that are more appropriate/advantageous/functional than others. If less appropriate exercises make up the bulk of the program, then the program is obviously flawed and less than optimal. Hopefully the trainer was able to consider the variables before making a decision on exercise selection.

[julesjordan]

Excuse me, this is BodyBuilding.com. Are you seriously unaware of the fact that the majority of pro bodybuilders use machines and isolation exercises?

Very few pro BB'ers squat, bench or dead. This isn't powerlifting or pro football. Machines and isolation exercises are simply better for targetted hypertrophy.

what types of machines? LOL, you talking nautilus?

Sorry, but i just did a youtube search on ronnie coleman, and everything he did was with bb's and db's. He benched, squat, and deadlift. Pretty much nothing but compounds

Maybe he has a vid of using machines that i missed other than the leg press