I'm considering embarking on this crazy Nutrition/Workout program - Need Advice

[SkinnyFat1984]

Hi Guys,

I recently bought a book by the famed trainer of athletes such as Serena Williams, Peyton Manning, Bernard Hopkins, Manute Bol, etc. The book is by Mackie Shilstone and is called "Lean and Hard: The Body Youve Always Wanted in Just 24 Workouts"

And in it he describes a HIT program that he claims has helped hundreds of folks put on muscle and lose fat at the same time (the holy grail of bodybuilding!)

As I'm reading through the book, however, his caloric recommendations come off as insane -- especially to a guy like me who has a tendency to easily put on fat.

I'm 5'10, 160 lbs and -- according to the book -- my RMR is ~1800 calories. For his program he recommends a multiple of 2.1 of RMR in calories ingested, which in my case would be ~3,600 calories along with heavy carb consumption. '

Regardless of the workouts involved, this sounds crazy to me - there just doesn't seem to be any feasible way I would not put on a sizable amount of fat in this program. But the trainer is extremely reputable and his recommendations seem science-based.

What do you guys think? Has anyone tried this program out? What were the results? Is it worth going for it for 6 weeks?

[dipatel13]

Just another fad diet/workout plan.

Eat a good diet with appropriate cals/macros and lift hard. It's not that complicated.

[SkinnyFat1984]

Just another fad diet/workout plan.

Eat a good diet with appropriate cals/macros and lift hard. It's not that complicated.

I'm not sure I would put in the category of "fad diet".

As I mentioned, some of the greatest pro-athletes of all-time have trained with this guy. He's had a part in Serena Williams' resurgence in her mid-thirties - I don't think you can just discount his program off hand.

[dipatel13]

Are you a professional athlete?

From Amazon: "endure a regimen of supplements, a strict meal plan and several weeks of high-intensity workouts"....


If you're looking to lean bulk, eat in a controlled surplus with adequate macros and a good lifting routine. It really isn't that hard.

[Jcart159]

I'm not sure I would put in the category of "fad diet".

As I mentioned, some of the greatest pro-athletes of all-time have trained with this guy. He's had a part in Serena Williams' resurgence in her mid-thirties - I don't think you can just discount his program off hand.

He's going to give you (a Joe schmoe) and Serena Williams (a professional athlete that has more muscle mass than you and trains for hours a day) the same calorie calculation...

Ask yourself again if that sounds moronic, fad diet-ish, and cookie cutter.

[ironwill2008]

Hi Guys,

I recently bought a book by the famed trainer of athletes such as Serena Williams, Peyton Manning, Bernard Hopkins, Manute Bol, etc. The book is by Mackie Shilstone and is called "Lean and Hard: The Body Youve Always Wanted in Just 24 Workouts"

And in it he describes a HIT program that he claims has helped hundreds of folks put on muscle and lose fat at the same time (the whole grail of bodybuilding!)

As I'm reading through the book, however, his caloric recommendations come off as insane -- especially to a guy like me who has a tendency to easily put on fat.

I'm 5'10, 160 lbs and -- and according to the book -- my RMR is ~1800 calories. For his program he recommends a multiple of 2.1 of RMR in calories ingested, which in my case would be ~3,600 calories along with heavy carb consumption. '

Regardless of the workouts involved, this sounds crazy to me - there just doesn't seem to be any feasible way I would not put on a sizable amount of fat in this program. But the trainer is extremely reputable and his recommendations seem science-based.






What do you guys think? Has anyone tried this program out? What were the results? Is it worth going for it for 6 weeks?

I don't even know where to start, OP...........................








Do this instead: forget all the nonsense in that "plan," and start here:

Beginner bodybuilding program:
Fierce 5 Novice routine:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=159678631


If you don't know how to perform any of the exercises in this program, look them up here to learn how to do them correctly:
http://exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html







This thread will explain all the steps to figure your baseline of required protein, fat, carbs, and calories:
*Emma Leigh's calorie/macro thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=156380183

Get your regular-food nutrition squared-away and your eating on a consistent basis for a couple of months, and then consider addition of possible supplements.




Guessing at portion sizes or relying on food package information will fail you. Buy an inexpensive digital food scale (~$30 at any big-box discount store), weigh your portions, and track them here: http://fitday.com

[SuffolkPunch]

The title of the book is a lie designed for one purpose - to sell that book.

"The Body Youve Always Wanted in Just 24 Workouts" - if the body you always wanted is very similar to what it is now then you're in luck.

As you rightly surmise, the calorie recommendations are most likely going to lead to excessive fat gain.

Put the book on ebay, chalk it up to experience and move on. There are no secret or special diets or programs that get around the fact that results take a long time and consistent effort.

[klaximilian]

Reps to the OP if he actually listens to the advice given ITT.

[SkinnyFat1984]

Guys, a bit of background: I have been working out seriously for ~1 year. I am not a complete novice but wouldn't classify myself as an Expert either.

While I haven't strictly followed any particular diet, I eat relatively clean and work out 4 times/week.

Attached is a picture from a few hours ago of what I currently look like at 5'10, 160 lbs.

I feel like I need something drastic to jump-start my body, which is why I'm considering this program. The standard weight lifting / cardio routine hasn't affected my body the way that I thought it would.

[dipatel13]

Guys, a bit of background: I have been working out seriously for ~1 year. I am not a complete novice but wouldn't classify myself as an Expert either.

While I haven't strictly followed any particular diet, I eat relatively clean and work out 4 times/week.

Attached is a picture from a few hours ago of what I currently look like at 5'10, 160 lbs.

I feel like I need something drastic to jump-start my body, which is why I'm considering this program. The standard weight lifting / cardio routine hasn't affected my body the way that I thought it would.

Your routine hasn't done much because your lifting plan and diet aren't good. See your thread here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=169855943

If you fix your diet and get on a proven beginner plan(which you need based on your info), you can definitely make progress.

[klaximilian]

Guys, a bit of background: I have been working out seriously for ~1 year. I am not a complete novice but wouldn't classify myself as an Expert either.

While I haven't strictly followed any particular diet, I eat relatively clean and work out 4 times/week.

Attached is a picture from a few hours ago of what I currently look like at 5'10, 160 lbs.

I feel like I need something drastic to jump-start my body, which is why I'm considering this program. The standard weight lifting / cardio routine hasn't affected my body the way that I thought it would.

Eating clean has absolutely nothing to do with your body composition, nor the gains you can make.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with 1st law of thermodynamics and read the stickies to learn about calories/macros.

[ironwill2008]

I feel like I need something drastic to jump-start my body, which is why I'm considering this program. The standard weight lifting / cardio routine hasn't affected my body the way that I thought it would.

One more time:

You're currently training on an inappropriate routine, and you aren't eating properly. You can continue on as you've been doing for the past year, you can try that goofy 'program' you listed in your OP........

......or you can follow the links in post #6, apply yourself and work hard and make some real progress.







Your choice.

[Jackal005]

Guys, a bit of background: I have been working out seriously for ~1 year. I am not a complete novice but wouldn't classify myself as an Expert either.

While I haven't strictly followed any particular diet, I eat relatively clean and work out 4 times/week.

Attached is a picture from a few hours ago of what I currently look like at 5'10, 160 lbs.

I feel like I need something drastic to jump-start my body, which is why I'm considering this program. The standard weight lifting / cardio routine hasn't affected my body the way that I thought it would.

The parts which I have bolded indicate that you are somewhat misguided, and yes, I have bolded your entire post.

Your body does not need a "jump-start". Do the right things for a long time and you will get results. The program you have been following for the last year has not worked, and following a crazy workout/diet from a book which makes unrealistic promises is not is not going to work either.

Follow a simple routine which has you progressively adding weight to multi-joint barbell movements and eat a small calorie surplus (or deficit if you want to cut) with a suitable macro nutrient breakdown, eating 90% nutritious ("clean") food.

[MetilHed]

Are you a professional athlete?

/thread

Edit: OP makes "HALP" thread yesterday, ignores it, goes out and buys secret 24 workouts to the body you've always wanted book, makes another thread, looks like he's going to ignore everything in that one too.

You need to be consistant in your diet, eat to your goals, be on a good program and stick with it. That's the jump start you need.

[cmacken]

My advise to you OP

1. Ignore the title of the book, it's a marketing gimmick designed to drive sales

2. Disregard the one size fits all nutrition plan. Construct a sensible diet based on the guidelines in the sticky and the feedback you receive from the scale/mirror

3. Follow the workout plan if you want. If the guy did work with top athletes you will probably see an improvement in your athletic performance, but temper your expectations when it comes to body composition changes.

[SkinnyFat1984]

/thread

Edit: OP makes "HALP" thread yesterday, ignores it, goes out and buys secret 24 workouts to the body you've always wanted book, makes another thread, looks like he's going to ignore everything in that one too.

You need to be consistant in your diet, eat to your goals, be on a good program and stick with it. That's the jump start you need.

You guys are treating me like a beginner but have ignored the fact that I've been working out for 1 year with limited results. I've written down every single workout I've performed over the past 1 year.

Again, my diet is not up to par as I frequently have small cheats i.e. chips and chocolate here and there - but my diet overall is not so bad.

My advise to you OP

1. Ignore the title of the book, it's a marketing gimmick designed to drive sales

2. Disregard the one size fits all nutrition plan. Construct a sensible diet based on the guidelines in the sticky and the feedback you receive from the scale/mirror

3. Follow the workout plan if you want. If the guy did work with top athletes you will probably see an improvement in your athletic performance, but temper your expectations when it comes to body composition changes.

Fair enough, good point. I was contemplating this since I'm scared of the fat gain that could occur on a 3,600 calorie diet followed by a 160 lb man.

The parts which I have bolded indicate that you are somewhat misguided, and yes, I have bolded your entire post.

Your body does not need a "jump-start". Do the right things for a long time and you will get results. The program you have been following for the last year has not worked, and following a crazy workout/diet from a book which makes unrealistic promises is not is not going to work either.

Follow a simple routine which has you progressively adding weight to multi-joint barbell movements and eat a small calorie surplus (or deficit if you want to cut) with a suitable macro nutrient breakdown, eating 90% nutritious ("clean") food.

Again, you guys are recommending workouts for beginners when I've already mentioned several times that I've been working out diligently for 1 year.

One more time:

You're currently training on an inappropriate routine, and you aren't eating properly. You can continue on as you've been doing for the past year, you can try that goofy 'program' you listed in your OP........

......or you can follow the links in post #6, apply yourself and work hard and make some real progress.







Your choice.

Problem is that I'm a bit jaded and feel like following these generic routines won't change my physique much. I need a more extreme workout/nutrition plan.

[SkinnyFat1984]

Eating clean has absolutely nothing to do with your body composition, nor the gains you can make.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with 1st law of thermodynamics and read the stickies to learn about calories/macros.

Ok, here's a question: given my weight, age, and body composition, should I bulk or cut?

[dipatel13]

Your routine hasn't done much because your lifting plan and diet aren't good. See your thread here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=169855943

If you fix your diet and get on a proven beginner plan(which you need based on your info), you can definitely make progress.

READ THIS

Lifting for one year with sub par results---> Beginner.

You need to establish a base to build from and beginner routine will do just that as long as you fix your diet.

You seem to be in denial about your situation. Your diet is not good, your lifting plan is not good. Better diet with adequate macros and a proven plan will lead to changes in your physique. Forgot your notions that you're above a beginner level, accept that what you've done for the past year wasn't that great, take the advice given to you, and you'll make progress. Or continue to put in effort and not see results. The choice is yours.

[gbullock32]

Ok, here's a question: given my weight, age, and body composition, should I bulk or cut?

NUTRITION

This is the largest factor in your success, learn the basics to get started and then move into more advanced if needed.

BASICS

Spoiler!

Calculate calorie needs: First get your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate), then multiply by an activity factor to get your TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure).

BMR= 370 + (21.6 x LBM (Lean Body Mass), Where LBM = [Total Weight (KG) x (100 - Body Fat %)] /100

Next take that number and use an activity factor to get TDEE (more active, use a higher number and lower number for less active) but remember this accounts for all activity and not just exercise (busy job/active life, choose a higher value)-
1.2- Sedentary (desk job and little exercise/activity)
1.3-1.4- Lightly Active Light daily activity, light exercise 1-3 times per week)
1.5-1.6- Moderately Active (Moderately active, moderate exercise 3-5 times per week)
1.7-1.8- Very Active (Physically demanding lifestyle, hard exercise 5-7 times per week)
1.9-2.2- Extremely Active (Endurance athlete, very hard physical job)

Now that you have the TDEE, get your macro-nutrient needs (fat, protein, and carb needs). Fat has 9 calories per gram, and protein/carbs have 4 calories per gram, alcohol is 7 calories per gram count it as a carb when fitting it into your macros).

Protein- .8 grams per pound
Fat- .4 grams per pound

Meet those MINIMUMS and then fill out remaining calories as you want with carbs, or more protein and fat, or any combination. Remember to track properly too, use a food scale (measuring cups can be very inaccurate due to density); track everything, each little bit adds up (sauces can be quite calorie dense).

Next decide your goal and eat at a 10-20% caloric deficit or surplus, deficit to lose weight and surplus to gain. For gaining go for ~.5-1 pound per week and when losing aim for 1-2 pounds per week. Reach your macro needs with mostly whole foods and a wide variety to ensure enough vitamins and mineral, but remember to practice common sense and moderation- enjoy life.

Sources and More Information

Spoiler!

Nutrition-
Calculating Calories
Pre, During, and Postworkout Nutrition
How To Ask For Diet Critique
Discretionary Calorie Allowance
Macro/Micro Nutrients Explained
Why 'Clean Eating' Is a Myth
Clean Eating Myth 2
Insulin and Fat Loss
Insulin and Fat Loss 2

Protein-
Protein Needs
Protein Needs 2
Protein Timing

Fat-
Fat Needs
Fat and Testosterone

Meal Timing-
Meal Timing 1
Meal Timing 2

Micro-Nutrient Guide-
Micro-Nutrient Guide

TRAINING

Start with a solid beginner routine, these are designed to get the most for you; they are designed by professionals and use progressive overload. Read through them and pick the one you like most, follow it as it is written.

Why You Should Not Make Your Own Routine
How To Perform Basic Lifts

Routines
Starting Strength
BabyLover's Starting Strength
AllPro's Beginner Routine
StrongLifts 5x5
IceCream Fitness 5x5
Fierce 5
Coolcicada's Push Pull Legs

Calisthenics routines

Spoiler!

Push Day:
- Pushups: 5x15
- Chest Dips: 4x12
- Triceps Extensions: 3x20
- Bench Dips: 3x15
- HSPU: 5x5
- Hindu Pushups: 3x12

Pull Day:
- Pull-ups: 5x8
- Inverted Rows: 3x12
- Back bridges: 4x10
- One-arm Assisted Chin-ups: 4x5
- One-arm Inverted Rows: 3x8
- Chins Isometric Holds: 3xFailure

Legs Day:
- Suqats: 5x20
- Jumping Squats: 4x15
- Lunges: 3x30
- Sprints: 4x20sec
- Box Jumps: 3x10
- Hanging Leg Raises: 3xfailure

Or-

Upper Day:
- Pullups: 5x6
- One-arm Inverted Rows: 3x8
- Inverted Rows: 3x18
- Back bridges: 4x10
- Pushups: 4x12
- Dips: 3x15
- HSPU: 3x5
- Decline Crunches: 4x12
- Russian Decline Twist: 3x12

Lower Day:
- Jumping Squats: 8x12
- Pistol Squats: 4x10
- Step Ups: 3x10
- GHR: 3x12
- Sprints: 5x15sec
- Calf Raises: 10x10 "Burnout".
- Hanging Leg Raises: 4x12
- Planks: 3x1min

SUPPLEMENTS

Remember one thing, supplements are only that; they supplement something and are never meant to be replacements. A multivitamin will not replace fruits and vegetables, a fat burner will not replace a caloric deficit, and a meal replacement is not meant to be your only source of calories.

This is a brief run down of the 'basics', for further breakdowns of specific ingredients (like Yohimbe, Forskolin, Glycerol, ect) more research on your part would be needed.

Protein

Spoiler!

Protein supplements are mostly derived from either Milk, Animal, Egg, or Plant sources. They are a powdered food item, made to be convenient to take. Their main purpose is to help you reach your minimum daily needs for protein if you cannot do so with whole foods, outside of that they provide no special benefit to muscle growth and are by no means 'required'.

Types
Whey- The most common, derived from milk and comes in either a concentrate or isolate. It is the cheapest and has a very high bio-availability, good stuff all around. Concentrate is the most common you will see since it requires less processing than an isolate. It is great and just fine for the majority of people. Isolates are another variety, they tend to have a few less carbs and fat, but cost more. They are best for people who have lactose issues.

Animal- Meat based protein, most come from the hooves and other parts that are not used in food; mostly collagen sources. These are usually not the best for bio-availability and are costly compared to a whey protein. They have the benefit of not being an issue to the lactose intolerant, but most prefer other sources for their protein needs.

Egg- From eggs, most are egg white powders. Again these cost more but have good bio-availability and do not aggravate lactose.

Plant- Best for the vegetarian/vegan, and those with very severe lactose intolerance (who still get issues even from isolate). These are sources from pea, soy, hemp, rice, and other plants. They often have multiple sources to form a complete protein source. Most cost more because of the processing involved.

Multi-Vitamins

Spoiler!

Multi-Vitamins are a good way to cover any gaps your nutrition may leave, they are not meant to (and never will be) a replacement for a wide variety of whole foods. Think of them as the spackle of the supplement world, great for covering imperfections, but you would not try and build a house from it.

Fish Oil

Spoiler!

Fish Oil is a good supplement for most, mainly because many do not eat enough fish to reach the minimum recommendation for EPA/DHA. For the most part you do not need to over complicate this one, just find a cheap and reliable brand and go for a dosage that covers your daily needs. These recommendations are 3 grams of EPA/DHA per day.

Creatine

Spoiler!

Creatine Monohydrate is the cheapest form of creatine and the most proven/studied. 3-5 grams a day, taken at any time with any liquid is all it takes and you do not need to load or cycle nor do you need to take it with sugar. Many types of creatine exist but just go with a plain mono- do not expect miracles though, creatine will barely have any noticeable effect, it may give you an extra rep or 2 but that is about it.

Bloating with creatine is actually very minimal, if it occurs at all, and usually only happens to those who load it (which is not needed). Creatine works by saturation, pulling water into the muscles and providing more endurance.

BCAAs

Spoiler!

BCAAs (Branch Chain Amino Acids) are said to prevent muscle breakdown and aid in recovery- this is true but you know what already has BCAAs in it? Food, any source of protein has and is comprised of branch chain amino acids. Assuming you reach protein sufficiency in your day a BCAA supplement would do nothing to aid you. BCAA supplements may be beneficial if you take pre/intra workout only if you train in a fasted state, or taken between meals if you go 4-6 hours without food. If you do not fit either of those categories they are not needed at all, save the money.

Fat Burners

Spoiler!

Fat Burners primarily do 2 things, suppress appetite and provide energy and focus. They cannot and will not replace a calorie deficit or a proper nutrition plan. Some have other additions, such as Forskolin or Yohimbe which may aid in actual fat loss though, but again the end success of weight/fat loss is proper diet. Work on getting that in order and then, if needed, you may want to look into a fat burner for the final push you need.

Pre-Workouts

Spoiler!

These are designed to provide energy, focus, pump, and endurance; they do so most often with caffeine and other ingredients though there are also non-stimm pre-workouts for those who do not want the caffeine rush. These can aid you if the extra energy is needed but they are not required; if you are fine without them than you can just save your money.

Meal Replacements/Mass Gainer

Spoiler!

These are often little more than a protein supplement with a lot of cheap carbs added in to jack up the calories. Really, just eat more; make a homemade gainer from whole foods: Whole Milk, Oats, Honey, Ice Cream, Whey, Peanut Butter, Fruit; all can be blended up to make a far more nutritious and cheaper gainer than anything you could buy in a tub.

CLA

Spoiler!

CLA is useless, really... Unless you are obese and even then the effects are minimal at best.

Glutamine

Spoiler!

Glutamine is pretty much useless, save your money.

[Jackal005]

You guys are treating me like a beginner but have ignored the fact that I've been working out for 1 year with limited results. I've written down every single workout I've performed over the past 1 year.

Again, my diet is not up to par as I frequently have small cheats i.e. chips and chocolate here and there - but my diet overall is not so bad.



Fair enough, good point. I was contemplating this since I'm scared of the fat gain that could occur on a 3,600 calorie diet followed by a 160 lb man.



Again, you guys are recommending workouts for beginners when I've already mentioned several times that I've been working out diligently for 1 year.



Problem is that I'm a bit jaded and feel like following these generic routines won't change my physique much. I need a more extreme workout/nutrition plan.

What is your 1RM for the bench, squat and deadlift?

The fact that you have been training for 1 year means nothing. What matters is what you've actually achieved in that year. There are plenty of guys who have been training for years that would benefit from going onto a beginners' routine.

[muruku]

OP,
Just do it and satisfy your curiosity.
Keep a log and report back with your results.

[SkinnyFat1984]

READ THIS

Lifting for one year with sub par results---> Beginner.

You need to establish a base to build from and beginner routine will do just that as long as you fix your diet.

You seem to be in denial about your situation. Your diet is not good, your lifting plan is not good. Better diet with adequate macros and a proven plan will lead to changes in your physique. Forgot your notions that you're above a beginner level, accept that what you've done for the past year wasn't that great, take the advice given to you, and you'll make progress. Or continue to put in effort and not see results. The choice is yours.

Ok. I'll take your advice and start over with a beginner's program.

What is your 1RM for the bench, squat and deadlift?

The fact that you have been training for 1 year means nothing. What matters is what you've actually achieved in that year. There are plenty of guys who have been training for years that would benefit from going onto a beginners' routine.

I haven't trained for Power for a year now - but these were my numbers from last December.

1RM

Deadlift: 295 lbs
Squat: 225 lbs (did 3 reps, never rested 1RM)
Bench Press: 235 lbs

OP,
Just do it and satisfy your curiosity.
Keep a log and report back with your results.

I would - if I wasn't so afraid of gaining even more fat around my midsection.

[Mrpb]

Ok, here's a question: given my weight, age, and body composition, should I bulk or cut?

Your body fat is significantly over 15%. Cut slowly losing 1 to 1.5 pound per week. Get back to about 11-12% and lean bulk from there, gaining 1 to 2 pounds per month.

Follow a balanced full body workout three times per week, such as Fierce 5 Novice routine.

I suggest you totally ignore any source that claims the body you want in just 24 workouts. That's not the way it works. You're in this for the long haul.

[SkinnyFat1984]

Your body fat is significantly over 15%. Cut slowly losing 1 to 1.5 pound per week. Get back to about 11-12% and lean bulk from there, gaining 1 to 2 pounds per month.

Follow a balanced full body workout three times per week, such as Fierce 5 Novice routine.

I suggest you totally ignore any source that claims the body you want in just 24 workouts. That's not the way it works. You're in this for the long haul.

What do you estimate my body fat % to be? 20%?

[Mrpb]

What do you estimate my body fat % to be? 20%?

Somewhere around there yes.

Are your legs quite skinny? because you do seem to have some muscle mass in your upper body at 5'10, 160 lbs.