soy lowers test levels?>>..

**brooklyn mike** · 07-23-2002, 01:17 AM

some one told me soy lowers test levels is that a flap?...

**-T-** · 07-23-2002, 08:04 AM

Yeah probably the milk industry.

Even the idea that soy lowers testosterone is illogical. True...so contains estrogen-like substances. Key word: LIKE. You are not eating estrogen. Use half a brain and figure that one out.

**Luke530** · 07-23-2002, 08:07 AM

I have a few articles stating soy contains estorogens or estrogen like substances... in excess it will lower test levels... but who cares... soy protein is inferior anyway... leave it alone... it's BV sucks... you would have to consum 3x as much as whey to get the same amount absorbed... so you are eating useless calories which are just excess which will either be excreted or stored as fat... stick with meat and dairy for your protein needs...

**-T-** · 07-23-2002, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Luke530
I have a few articles stating soy contains estorogens or estrogen like substances... in excess it will lower test levels... but who cares... soy protein is inferior anyway... leave it alone... it's BV sucks... you would have to consum 3x as much as whey to get the same amount absorbed... so you are eating useless calories which are just excess which will either be excreted or stored as fat... stick with meat and dairy for your protein needs...

Soy contains no estrogen compunds. Soy is a bean...estrogen is a hormone...hormones can only be produced by animals. Soy does have several compounds that LOOK like estrogen...thus they are called estrogen-LIKE compounds. These compounds are mostly helpful for women but just go out of a mans system as there is little they can do.

Apparantly the "BV" of soy protein has a lower rating than some other proteins like whey. I still don't know what that means...it might just be a count of how many of the 64 amino acids are in an average protein string...you do know that we can only use about 24 aminos (which are called essential). So even if ehwy has 50 ...we can only use half of that. Or it might be how fast the protein is absorbed...in that case you may or may NOT want a fast absorbing protein. So soy has its place either way.

You would have to absorb 3x as much to get the same ammount? Compaired to what? Caesin (dairy)? That is obviously an opinion of yours (unless you have a study prepared) and should be taken as fact.

So you are just eating useless cals...? I dont see how any cals are useless if you need the energy. If you didn't need the energy..then ANY cals would be useless (including those from whey protein and caesin). Not sure what your point was there.

Overall...soy has its place and is a much more logical choice for a white creamy drink to go over cereal or ust to drink straight.

**BenLee** · 07-23-2002, 08:53 AM

that's not true. It doesn't contain estrogen. It contains estrogen LIKE compounds. They have the same skeleton as the estrogen molecule but modified side groups. Peanuts contain resveratol, an estrogen like molecule also found in red win which has shown to reduce low density lipoprotein levels in people.

**speda1** · 07-23-2002, 09:08 AM

If these phyto-estrogens don't have an estrogenic effect, then why do post-menopausal women report symptom relief with them?

**LordNeon** · 07-23-2002, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by speda1
If these phyto-estrogens don't have an estrogenic effect, then why do post-menopausal women report symptom relief with them?

All the stories being spread about soy increasing estrogen and inhibiting muscle growth are horribly exaggerated. There has not yet been a single study which has actually indicated this to be true - only a variety of studies which vaguely suggest it MIGHT be true which have been contradicted by other studies.

As for menopause, only women with very low estrogen levels tend to benefit from soy. Studies have shown that isoflavones are much, much weaker in their estrogenic effects than conventional estrogen. Some research has suggested that the phyto-estrogens in soy can sometimes actually prevent the uptake of estrogen by preventing real estrogen from binding to receptors.
So basically, you have studies saying soy consumption has estrogen-like effects, and other studies saying soy consumption prevents estrogen-like effects by preventing real estrogen from doing its thing. Thing is, these phyto-estrogens are so weak it's probably a negligible effect anyway.

**Luke530** · 07-23-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by -T-

You would have to absorb 3x as much to get the same ammount? Compaired to what? Caesin (dairy)? That is obviously an opinion of yours (unless you have a study prepared) and should be taken as fact.

I do have a study prepared... look at a simple BV value... soy is all the way at the bottom... I'm not sure what the # is... but milk and eggs are right at the top...

**cga** · 07-23-2002, 10:59 AM

I have read an article which says that soy protein may actually act as an natural estrogen blocker. Because the phyto-estrogens bind with the receptors responsible for producing estrogen and temporally stops estrogen production.

I if take your soy with milk it become a complete protein, and is a great addition to the diet and is supposed to be good for the heart. I believe that you should get your protein from as many sources as possible, soy should be one.

**BenLee** · 07-23-2002, 11:23 AM

I don't think it would matter if you are taking soy protein isolate. Because, ideally, the protease inhibitors and estrogen like molecules would be filtered out. But, yeah... if your paranoid about Soy Milk, then don't take it.

btw, I'm willing to bet that the BV of Soy Protein Isolate is higher than Soybeans themself

**Manteca** · 07-23-2002, 02:31 PM

soy is not worthwhile for bodybuilders, leave that **** to tofu eating lightweights. Read up, there are plenty of reasons to avoid soy.

**LordNeon** · 07-23-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Luke530

I do have a study prepared... look at a simple BV value... soy is all the way at the bottom... I'm not sure what the # is... but milk and eggs are right at the top...

No, soy is NOT at the "bottom". It's BV (and BV, BTW, is only one measurement of protein quality, and not necessarily the best) is 74, only slightly behind casein, and ahead of just about all other non-animal sources of protein. Furthermore, in terms of protein digestibility, soy is king: Its PDCAAS score (a measure of the degree of utilization of a protein's amino acids) is 1.00, a perfect score, and ahead of that of eggs and milk.

This soy-bashing has really got to stop. Part of it seems to come from supplement-maker propaganda and some of it just seems to be a knee-jerk response towards anything to do with vegetarianism. It's kind of ridiculous.

**Manteca** · 07-23-2002, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by LordNeon

No, soy is NOT at the "bottom". It's BV (and BV, BTW, is only one measurement of protein quality, and not necessarily the best) is 74, only slightly behind casein, and ahead of just about all other non-animal sources of protein. Furthermore, in terms of protein digestibility, soy is king: Its PDCAAS score (a measure of the degree of utilization of a protein's amino acids) is 1.00, a perfect score, and ahead of that of eggs and milk.

This soy-bashing has really got to stop. Part of it seems to come from supplement-maker propaganda and some of it just seems to be a knee-jerk response towards anything to do with vegetarianism. It's kind of ridiculous.

I will go bust out some of my research later and explain why SOY SUCKS.

**LordNeon** · 07-23-2002, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Manteca

I will go bust out some of my research later and explain why SOY SUCKS.

And I'll bust out mine explaining why yours is wrong.

**brooklyn mike** · 07-23-2002, 03:09 PM

i dont take soy protein but i eat soy burgers all the time casue im negleted by my family and no one buys food for me so thats all that is in the freezer thats why i was asking...

**cga** · 07-23-2002, 03:10 PM

LordNeon is right

**brooklyn mike** · 07-23-2002, 03:16 PM

the only reason i asked the question is casue some moron on another post said it and i was jsut wondering if it was true....

**1fast400** · 07-23-2002, 03:57 PM

http://www.brinkzone.com/soy.html

Have fun reading.

**Roxie** · 07-23-2002, 05:00 PM

good article!!

**97LT1** · 07-23-2002, 05:39 PM

I know some vegan BBers who worry about this. If you still are, supplement ZMA and flaxseed oil.

**-T-** · 07-23-2002, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by Manteca

I will go bust out some of my research later and explain why SOY SUCKS.

I welcome this.

**burton** · 07-24-2002, 12:03 AM

I cant believe how many people seem to have a complete hatred to even the word soy when it comes up in a post. Holy @#$% whats the big deal? I've been a vegeterian for years and guess what soy bashers? I havent "grown breasts" or "turned into a woman" . I sit here and read these people bashing it and I really dont understand what the reason is at all. I guess I could get into why red meat etc is bad for people but I dont. So why do so many people get off on bashing soy? It seems like alot of people on here have a real vendetta about it. It baffles me. Chill people. Breathe in slowly...hold it...out slowly!!!

Peace!!

**burton** · 07-24-2002, 12:14 AM

BTW,,,thanks "-T-", LordNeon", "BenLee" for actually having an open mind and giving an educated response to soy and not "bashing" without research to back up these ridiculous claims being made about it that have been going on here lately.

Peace!!

**97LT1** · 07-24-2002, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by burton
BTW,,,thanks "-T-", LordNeon", "BenLee" for actually having an open mind and giving an educated response to soy and not "bashing" without research to back up these ridiculous claims being made about it that have been going on here lately.

Peace!!

You mean thanks for telling you want you wanted to hear.

**-T-** · 07-24-2002, 07:58 AM

You're welcome Burton.

It is my opinion that the people behind the milk industry are the same type of shisters that were behind Enron, Worldcom, etc. These dishonest people have known for years that milk is for cows and not for humans.

IMO they started many years ago with milk adds saying how good it was for you and that started the parent-child relationship about how milk is something that should be had at every dinner etc.

So it is just natural that now when studies start to come out and people start questioning milk that the knee-jerk reation is to fight back and protect what they have been drinking for years.

But even more important is how badly animals are treated. I actually feel good for the animals that are slaughtered.

I am in no way promoting vegitarianism (IMO the only vegitarianism that is true is veganism) for the moment. Right now i look around the animal kingdom and see plenty of otehr animals eating eggs and meat for food. I don't see any other animals drinking milk after infancy nor any animals drinking the milk of other species. Also i should note that when i say that other animals eat meat they have to hunt down their meat and it is usually VERY lean game. It is not hormone/steroid pumped cows that sit around and eat untill they are slaughtered and we drive to the supermarket to pick it up.

The state of our nutrition IMO is sad...and it shows. We are the fattest/unhealthiest people in the world. But we are improveing...and if the studies show that we are infact herbovors and promote a truely vegan diet as best...then i'll eat that. But for now...meat and eggs seem natural...milk doesnt.

Sorry for the rant...just started typing. All of the above is OPINION of mine. Do as you like but please...PLEASE....decide for yourself and keep an open mind. Don't let other people tell you what is best for you...

**97LT1** · 07-24-2002, 08:02 AM

Isn't every post of yours a rant?

**-T-** · 07-24-2002, 08:14 AM

**Luke530** · 07-24-2002, 08:15 AM

**** that... if you are just doing it for the cows... **** them to... kill 'em for all I care... first we get milk from e'em (which is a plus) then we kill 'em anyway... I could care less what happens to the cows (call me ignorant)... but you saying milk is unhealthy (is a load of crap and your opinion... and even if it is... I will drink it just for the hell of it... to get my protein and carbs... I'm not lactose intolerant so I'll drink all I want).... I just don't like the fact that you are telling people to drink soy... it is only your opinion that you think it is better... but truthfully milk is better... just because the protein is better and (if it does or does not) contain phyto-estrogens... I don't give a ****... just don't ****ing tell people to drink soy just because you like it... don't say it's better... it's just your opinion... So stop ****ing trying to change peoples minds be feeding them bull****!!!! an opinion is fine... but not this!!!

**97LT1** · 07-24-2002, 08:35 AM

Well, he did start his last post with IMO.

**Luke530** · 07-24-2002, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by 97LT1
Well, he did start his last post with IMO.

was I asking you!

(shhhhhhh...... keep it down)

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