Oh fuk...have we been WRONG about Russia? Srs

[whitepaper]

Watched this video...legit changes the conversation.

Can any informed brahs confirm and add insight?

[DivineMasculine]

Cliffs?

[whitepaper]

Cliffs?

Nato/West keep poking at Russia
Ukraine is just a pawn in the proxy war
No real intention to save Ukraine/add them to Nato
Lots of sketchy behavior to surround Russia militarily
Lots of double standards around what's happening/the media's take on the conflict
No different from when the US went ape shiit when Russia was putting missiles in Cuba threatening its sovereignty
How would US react if Russia orchestrated government change in Mexico, and had Mexico join some military alliance threatening the US
Gas/energy industry pushing for Russia conflict/sanctions to limit Russia's supply to Europe, and replace it with US liquefied natural gas


Puts things into a different perspective, and feel for Ukies being used as cannon fodder

[Kraken]

Dems have been WAGGING THE DOG!! We very well could be the enemy for all we know. The provocateurs.
There is a literal info war right now. Propaganda and disinformation everywhere. I think this is being driven by Dems to keep us in the dark, but other countries are being bombarded with paid shills everywhere

[Lunatic]

Nato/West keep poking at Russia
Ukraine is just a pawn in the proxy war
No real intention to save Ukraine/add them to Nato
Lots of sketchy behavior to surround Russia militarily
Lots of double standards around what's happening/the media's take on the conflict
No different from when the US went ape shiit when Russia was putting missiles in Cuba threatening its sovereignty
How would US react if Russia orchestrated government change in Mexico, and had Mexico join some military alliance threatening the US
Gas/energy industry pushing for Russia conflict/sanctions to limit Russia's supply to Europe, and replace it with US liquefied natural gas


Puts things into a different perspective, and feel for Ukies being used as cannon fodder

That should all be intuitive, honestly. The US is such a huge piece of **** throughout the world.

[exxtracool]

anytime someone begins to justify what is happening in ukraine by suggesting "USA is doing it too bro!" is the exact time i can completely disregard anything they have to say because they are retards.

[mikebadg3]

lol at Ukraine cels suporting literal descendants of nazis in ukraine radical terror elements funded armed trained by CIA

[ConTroLFreaKK]

This guy explains how the west propped up Ukraine to use as a pawn against Russia pretty accurately. I honestly feel so bad for Ukrainians.

[whitepaper]

Dems have been WAGGING THE DOG!! We very well could be the enemy for all we know. The provocateurs.
There is a literal info war right now. Propaganda and disinformation everywhere. I think this is being driven by Dems to keep us in the dark, but other countries are being bombarded with paid shills everywhere

Seems very heavy handed.

I check out reddit and youtube for updates and it's all pretty one sided. Not saying it's right, but there's no other narrative.

[whitepaper]

anytime someone begins to justify what is happening in ukraine by suggesting "USA is doing it too bro!" is the exact time i can completely disregard anything they have to say because they are retards.

No one is justifying it, but for it to be framed as "good guys" vs "bad guys" is very one dimensional, and to just blame it on Putin/Russia being evil is so dismissive.


Imagine if all international relations were just seen who the bad guy is today? Insane that it's all just one direction to the conversation right now

[mikebadg3]

Seems very heavy handed.

I check out reddit and youtube for updates and it's all pretty one sided. Not saying it's right, but there's no other narrative.

Intuitive mind asks why there's only one side to the story and why that isn't the only narrative. I feel so bad for Ukrainian people they do not deserve this

[whitepaper]

This guy explains how the west propped up Ukraine to use as a pawn against Russia pretty accurately. I honestly feel so bad for Ukrainians.

Watching this guy now.




Insane that Zelenskyy even suggested he's going to pursue getting nuclear weapons. How that would be acceptable is absolutely fuked, and can understand the threat that would pose to Russia.


How is this not being discussed?

https://www.dailywire.com/news/presi...putin-responds

[exxtracool]

No one is justifying it, but for it to be framed as "good guys" vs "bad guys" is very one dimensional, and to just blame it on Putin/Russia being evil is so dismissive.


Imagine if all international relations were just seen who the bad guy is today? Insane that it's all just one direction to the conversation right now

okay, but we can say wrong and right... russia and putin might not be EVIL but they are wrong in doing what they are doing here.

everything else is semantics, propaganda, and noise. all we need to know is that this invasion of an independent state by russia with a military operation that is specific in its aim to replace the democratically elected government of ukraine is WRONG.

[Shortfuze]

Here's the quandary for me:

1) Russia says NATO promised it would not expand into Eastern Europe (way back in the early 90s - apparently the promise was a verbal one, written in the minutes of the meeting and thus not official).

2) NATO and US say, they never promised that and they have every right to accept any member who wants to be part of NATO.

3) Since 2014, Ukraine has been literally begging to be part of NATO and yet it was constantly denied.

4) The Russian military buildup has been going on for months in front of the whole world; every military analyst said Ukraine was in danger of being attacked and yet still NATO refused to accept Ukraine.

5) When Russia openly supported the independence of the breakaway Republics, NATO still would not accept Ukraine. At this point, if the US wanted, we could have given some form of security guarantee or fast-forwarded Ukraine's acceptance into NATO if we were serious about Ukraine's security. But we did nothing except cry and scream that Russia will invade.

So if I were a Ukrainian, I would not only be pissed off with Russia, but I'd also be very pissed off at NATO and the US for leading us on without any intention of following through.

Oh and Taiwan is probably sh*tting their pants wondering if China tries anything, will the US come to its defense? Sure, we have security agreements and military cooperation but is Biden's admin strong enough to take on China on behalf of Taiwan even if it means severely compromising its own security? (especially economic?)

[exxtracool]

Here's the quandary for me:

1) Russia says NATO promised it would not expand into Eastern Europe (way back in the early 90s - apparently the promise was a verbal one, written in the minutes of the meeting and thus not official).

2) NATO and US say, they never promised that and they have every right to accept any member who wants to be part of NATO.

3) Since 2014, Ukraine has been literally begging to be part of NATO and yet it was constantly denied.

4) The Russian military buildup has been going on for months in front of the whole world; every military analyst said Ukraine was in danger of being attacked and yet still NATO refused to accept Ukraine.

5) When Russia openly supported the independence of the breakaway Republics, NATO still would not accept Ukraine. At this point, if the US wanted, we could have given some form of security guarantee or fast-forwarded Ukraine's acceptance into NATO if we were serious about Ukraine's security. But we did nothing except cry and scream that Russia will invade.

So if I were a Ukrainian, I would not only be pissed off with Russia, but I'd also be very pissed off at NATO and the US for leading us on without any intention of following through.

NATO/US was too scared of starting a war with russia. that pretty much what it boils down to.

ya the ukrainians are pissed at nato right now.

its a tricky situation that obviously we, as random miscers, can not fully understand. I can understand nato not wanting to start a war right now, i can also understand ukraine being pissed off...

[AgRyan]

Russia fully committed to their Bay of Pigs.

[AlfBundy]

I posted a Jimmy Dore thread last night and got called a russian bot

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=181133813

[whitepaper]

That's pretty much how I understand it.

Doesn't mean I'm going to side with Russia, but obviously there is no reason to start WW3 over this

I'd rather have a pro EU/USA puppet as the president of Ukraine than a pro Russian puppet. I'm sure most of Europe would agree

Definitely wrong. But if we're looking at this from the viewpoint of pushing two countries down this path, then the blame doesn't fall on Russia's actions alone.


I think that's still the wrong kind of thinking; wanting a puppet president in place, whether supporting the Russia or on our side.


I don't think ww3 would happen. As it's already been demonstrated, no one gives a fuk about Ukies in this proxy war

[whitepaper]

okay, but we can say wrong and right... russia and putin might not be EVIL but they are wrong in doing what they are doing here.

everything else is semantics, propaganda, and noise. all we need to know is that this invasion of an independent state by russia with a military operation that is specific in its aim to replace the democratically elected government of ukraine is WRONG.

Sure. But to say that is almost to proclaim that there is ONE wrong and the rest is good. Again, very one dimensional.

I hate to simplify it as such, but imagine two school yard children, one strikes the other in response to a slight. Sure, the kid who hit the other kid is wrong, but are we to look at the whole situation from the lens of that one action alone? Rather reductive to look at complex geopolitical issues and actions in a similar vein, which is what is currently happening. We're just seeing one nation attack another, and simply looking at the aftermath, with no genuine conversation as to what lead to the current situation.


If this type of thinking persists, with the absolute lack of critical thinking, then the general populous is doomed to be spoon-fed what to think at all times, and people are just doomed to harbor past slights and actions against one another, in this eye-for-an-eye mindset.


I'm honestly not sure if this is just Canadian mindset in just looking at one action in an isolated sense, but international relations are never this simple. Wrong or right, there is more to the conflict. But then again, wrong or right, it's my country.

[whitepaper]

Here's the quandary for me:

1) Russia says NATO promised it would not expand into Eastern Europe (way back in the early 90s - apparently the promise was a verbal one, written in the minutes of the meeting and thus not official).

2) NATO and US say, they never promised that and they have every right to accept any member who wants to be part of NATO.

3) Since 2014, Ukraine has been literally begging to be part of NATO and yet it was constantly denied.

4) The Russian military buildup has been going on for months in front of the whole world; every military analyst said Ukraine was in danger of being attacked and yet still NATO refused to accept Ukraine.

5) When Russia openly supported the independence of the breakaway Republics, NATO still would not accept Ukraine. At this point, if the US wanted, we could have given some form of security guarantee or fast-forwarded Ukraine's acceptance into NATO if we were serious about Ukraine's security. But we did nothing except cry and scream that Russia will invade.

So if I were a Ukrainian, I would not only be pissed off with Russia, but I'd also be very pissed off at NATO and the US for leading us on without any intention of following through.

Oh and Taiwan is probably sh*tting their pants wondering if China tries anything, will the US come to its defense? Sure, we have security agreements and military cooperation but is Biden's admin strong enough to take on China on behalf of Taiwan even if it means severely compromising its own security? (especially economic?)

The worst part of this is that this started way back when the USSR was dismantled. Ukraine de-nuclearized during that time, with general assurances of protection and the like.
Ukies really are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and are literally feeling the effects of being a tool within the proxy war.


This begs the question of Nato's purpose now, or rather, its renewed purpose. I imagine in some capacity this is ideal for NATO in that it cements their need/purpose even more, whereas before, it could have been argued that they ultimately served their purpose and were an archaic entity, itself a trigger for conflict.

[gixxer0.6g]

I've learned that when the MSM taking heads all start sounding like a broken record on something that something is a narrative powers at be are paying for to manipulate the public. Russia feels a lot like that.

[plsmire]

I get all that, but is Putin being paranoid? Let's say Ukraine did join NATO. Would NATO really try to expand further into Russia itself and risk mutual destruction? I don't think so. Ukraine entering NATO just ensures there will be no resurrection of the USSR. If Ukraine did become part of Russia instead, would Putin then say that Poland shouldn't be part of NATO?

I guess it's just a question of where the border of Nato/Russia should be, and it seems like it should be Russia. Russia can't tell what other sovereign countries can and cannot do.

Putin's only argument is if he can prove that Ukraine is a western puppet government, cos that would count as expansion towards the east via a form of invasion, rather than simply another independent country choosing to join NATO.

[whitepaper]

I posted a Jimmy Dore thread last night and got called a russian bot

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=181133813

I'm somewhat shocked, to be frank. I can understand the general "conspiracy" label that could be attached to people when discussing national events, but something this global and complex clearly has more to it than the simple narrative we're seeing.


Any progress is doomed to fail if the discussion is just "bad Russia" with zero understanding of what lead to them doing this other than "Putin is evil"

[DSTEE]

anytime someone begins to justify what is happening in ukraine by suggesting "USA is doing it too bro!" is the exact time i can completely disregard anything they have to say because they are retards.

This lol. Absolutely ridiculous.



Putin is a great showman and story teller. But its ultimately just a theatre and smoke show which you cant fully grasp or follow, which is the entire point of it. Any "pro russian" rationalise the invasion by including a bunch of irrelevant chit into it, jumping from one thing to the next with little clarity. It's like a blietz krieg of the mind. See the 10 min video in my signature for explanation

[Nicklol]

The US attacks or bombs somewhere and its a normal day.

Russia doesnt want to be friends in certain ways so they try to make them out to be evil boogiemen
impossible to know whats going on.

considering the msm called ppl parking in their trucks and ppl who support it "terrorists".. i'm never taking a word they say serious again (not like I have for like 20 years anyways but yeah)

[TappingTheZen]

Nato/West keep poking at Russia
Ukraine is just a pawn in the proxy war
No real intention to save Ukraine/add them to Nato
Lots of sketchy behavior to surround Russia militarily
Lots of double standards around what's happening/the media's take on the conflict
No different from when the US went ape shiit when Russia was putting missiles in Cuba threatening its sovereignty
How would US react if Russia orchestrated government change in Mexico, and had Mexico join some military alliance threatening the US
Gas/energy industry pushing for Russia conflict/sanctions to limit Russia's supply to Europe, and replace it with US liquefied natural gas


Puts things into a different perspective, and feel for Ukies being used as cannon fodder

I think most of the misc are already aware of all of this.

[whitepaper]

The US attacks or bombs somewhere and its a normal day.

Russia doesnt want to be friends in certain ways so they try to make them out to be evil boogiemen
impossible to know whats going on.

considering the msm called ppl parking in their trucks and ppl who support it "terrorists".. i'm never taking a word they say serious again (not like I have for like 20 years anyways but yeah)

I think it's expected for a country's actions to not be seen in that fashion, and it's not outside the norm.

I don't even think the issue is in what Russia does and the US does as well, but more so in that what lead to this is being completely ignored, regardless of the right and wrong of the direct conflict/consequences

[DivineMasculine]

Nato/West keep poking at Russia
Ukraine is just a pawn in the proxy war
No real intention to save Ukraine/add them to Nato
Lots of sketchy behavior to surround Russia militarily
Lots of double standards around what's happening/the media's take on the conflict
No different from when the US went ape shiit when Russia was putting missiles in Cuba threatening its sovereignty
How would US react if Russia orchestrated government change in Mexico, and had Mexico join some military alliance threatening the US
Gas/energy industry pushing for Russia conflict/sanctions to limit Russia's supply to Europe, and replace it with US liquefied natural gas


Puts things into a different perspective, and feel for Ukies being used as cannon fodder

Have you not seen any of my threads on this?

Ukraine is a country that has no use. The EU and Russia are much more useful.

Don’t get mad at me, people vote for this.

[whitepaper]

I think most of the misc are already aware of all of this.

I certainly wasn't. I didn't have much context as to the why, and still think that Putin overstepped in pushing beyond the eastern region, but at the same time, I don't blame him for going all out while given the chance.
Either way, I think this just bolsters NATO, and isolates Ukraine more given that they're really at their wit's end, with NATO not accepting them into the fold.



Hopefully now Ukies know better than to rely on the false promises of NATO, and I guess this is something Russia knew when it was promised NATO would not advance to the East.

And the Ukies' plans to pursue nuclear arms once this is all said and done...I'm not sure who wants to break the bad news to the Ukies on that front. Once the hostilities settle with Russia, Ukies genuinely have to reassess their allegiances to NATO, and possibly look to stand on their own alliances rather than false promises.

[whitepaper]

Have you not seen any of my threads on this?

Ukraine is a country that has no use. The EU and Russia are much more useful.

Don’t get mad at me, people vote for this.

Nope. Link please