"Fierce 5" Novice Routine

[ljm1985mufc]

I have no clue without seeing it. Post a picture of it.

I'd love to but apparently I can't as I haven't made 50 posts!

Basically you sit upright as you would In a chair then bend backward until your upper body and legs are parallel.

Looks to be the same movement, just from a different position.

[Wan2BeFit]

Bulking right now, going to try this routine. I've been working out 6 days a week tho, and this program is only 3 days a week? How do you get great results from only 3 days in the gym? And wouldn't 3 days of exercise while bulking make me fat lol

[chemo29]

Bulking right now, going to try this routine. I've been working out 6 days a week tho, and this program is only 3 days a week? How do you get great results from only 3 days in the gym? And wouldn't 3 days of exercise while bulking make me fat lol

calories in vs calories out is what matters the most (whether bulking or cutting)

if you've worked out 6 days/week. I assume you did mainly isolation exercises with a different body group every day? Training muscle groups independently allows them to rest on days you train another body part and isolation exercices are less taxing on the CNS
This program is mostly compounds lift, so you will NEED to rest between workouts

[Wan2BeFit]

calories in vs calories out is what matters the most (whether bulking or cutting)

if you've worked out 6 days/week. I assume you did mainly isolation exercises with a different body group every day? Training muscle groups independently allows them to rest on days you train another body part and isolation exercices are less taxing on the CNS
This program is mostly compounds lift, so you will NEED to rest between workouts

Yes you're correct. I haven't done a routine with compound lifts, so I don't know how it is and was just curious. Excited to try it tho!

[davisj3537]

Hey davis, I don’t know if this will help you in any way, shape or form but id though I’d put up where I’ve come on the programme. This was the original in which I was doing 3x5 for DL and 3x10 for the rest of the lifts. – No squat/calf work due to fused ankle.

I have a spreadsheet of every date/lift should you need it also.

This is 14 weeks – I'm cutting (lol at cutting) from ~300lbs





My progress is a bit all over the place due my ankle, equipment limitations (see below) and missing a few workouts.

I have a couple of questions if you could help me out with.

1) Bench press – Can I do this exercise separate from the others? This is due to equipment limitations at the gym and I have a bench, rack and a set of weights at home. If I do this, do I do the accessory exercise with it and which one is the accessory exercise?

2) Due to my ankle I will sometimes not be able to do the DLs or legpress, how should I come back to these exercises after a couple of weeks off in terms of the weight used?

3) My triceps are going nowhere – any idea why? Not even kidding, always struggle with the last couple of reps.

4) Bicep curls – I used dumbbells, but failing on my left arm. Should I increase the weight for the right arm or keep them the same until the other catches up for balance?

Thanks

For someone that is cutting these results are fantastic! You could do bench at home, but I'm not sure why you'd want to do half of the workout at home. If you did then also do triceps at home. You can attempt the same weight when coming back from an ankle injury, BUT warm up slowly and see how it feels. If it doesn't feel right then don't do it. Lower the weight if you feel you need to. Don't worry about triceps. They are getting stronger since your bench is going up. This exercise is just to wear them out after bench. The progression isn't really important. Keep the weight the same for curls on both arms. Just curious how much weight you've lost since you started?

I'd love to but apparently I can't as I haven't made 50 posts!

Basically you sit upright as you would In a chair then bend backward until your upper body and legs are parallel.

Looks to be the same movement, just from a different position.

Sounds OK I guess. Can't be sure.

Bulking right now, going to try this routine. I've been working out 6 days a week tho, and this program is only 3 days a week? How do you get great results from only 3 days in the gym? And wouldn't 3 days of exercise while bulking make me fat lol

Just like chemo said, you'll need the rest days. Trust in the program...it wouldn't be popular if it wasn't effective.

[DEEETS]

For someone that is cutting these results are fantastic! You could do bench at home, but I'm not sure why you'd want to do half of the workout at home. If you did then also do triceps at home. You can attempt the same weight when coming back from an ankle injury, BUT warm up slowly and see how it feels. If it doesn't feel right then don't do it. Lower the weight if you feel you need to. Don't worry about triceps. They are getting stronger since your bench is going up. This exercise is just to wear them out after bench. The progression isn't really important. Keep the weight the same for curls on both arms. Just curious how much weight you've lost since you started?

Thanks for the reply – it not a matter of wanting too, there is a single rack at the gym for bench/squats and even going at 5 am there’s no guarantee I won’t have to wait 30+ minutes to use it. I ended up only getting to use the rack twice in the 14 weeks.

I did use the smith 70% of the time, a machine and a failed/humiliating/painful attempt at a DB press. Even before recently changing from 3x10 to 3x5 I feel I could do more but going from rack to smith to machine was affecting my progress.

I was dropping the weight for the leg work sometimes, but my ankle is permanently screwed (car accident 2001), hopefully this doesn’t happen too many times throughout the year. Love doing the deadlift.

As for weight, well – lost ~25lbs but then quit smoking and it all came tumbling back over the last 4-6 weeks, back on track now.

I have been sticking with the program and now I’ll go with the progression on the lifts I can, halving it when I stall as suggested in the FAQ (or somewhere in the thread).

Cheers.

[ljm1985mufc]

Sounds OK I guess. Can't be sure.

So would you recommend me doing back extension every workout, as i feel that my lower back is a particularly weak area of mine. I would like to strengthen it up in order to hopefully get back to doing deadlifts, as the love the pump your body gets from DL's!

[DEEETS]

Sorry, I should also add a couple of things

i) I was doing some lifts from jan of this year, mostly isolations but also bench, and I struggled with the bar. That’s embarrassing for a 300lb guy especially when at 17 I was benching 220lbs+ - but no one gives a chit what you used to be able to do!

ii) I did follow the protocol for estimating starting weights, but I got it wrong because they were way to heavy, but I stuck with them because I thought I was just being a baby about it. In retrospect I should have started lighter.

[we1ghtlift3r]

Weightlifter, you started way too heavy. Drop it to 100lbs.

I think you misunderstood me Davis. I've been doing the routine for 3 weeks. I started at 100 and built my way to 115. I didn't start the routine this week at 115. Regardless, I'll drop the weights to 100 and build my way back up. Also, this week, I'm gonna be going out of town from Wednesday through Sunday. Its a BAB week so I'll only be able to do 1 B day. For the following week, should I do ABA and just keep the B day weights the same?

[davisj3537]

So would you recommend me doing back extension every workout, as i feel that my lower back is a particularly weak area of mine. I would like to strengthen it up in order to hopefully get back to doing deadlifts, as the love the pump your body gets from DL's!

Pendlays work back pretty well. Just back extensions on B.

I think you misunderstood me Davis. I've been doing the routine for 3 weeks. I started at 100 and built my way to 115. I didn't start the routine this week at 115. Regardless, I'll drop the weights to 100 and build my way back up. Also, this week, I'm gonna be going out of town from Wednesday through Sunday. Its a BAB week so I'll only be able to do 1 B day. For the following week, should I do ABA and just keep the B day weights the same?

That all sounds good man.




Deets it sounds like you have it figured out man.

[jjhrrsn6]

Just want to make sure i got the subs in correct.

Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
pendlay 3x8
facepull 3x10
Calf raises 2x15/Tricep pressdowns 2x10 Superset

Workout B
deadlift 3x5
Incline Bench 3x5
Leg curl 3x8
Lat pulldowns 3x8
Ab work 2x15/Curls 2x10 Superset

I am doing this with my Fiance (she will do half the progression) and we both do not like front squats. I loved RDLs though. Wasnt sure if the front squat/RDL switch for Deadlift/leg curls was the way i have it or vice versa.

[VmissileX]

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before or not.


Would a SLDL be an acceptable substitituion for the RDL? Why or why not?

I may consider switching the OHP for the incline bench as I see now in the OP. What was the reasoning for this? I know for a fact that this is a repeat question...if you don't answer by the time i'm out of work and able to read the older posts, i'll edit this and take this question out.

Thanks davis

[Wan2BeFit]

Quick question:

Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
pendlay 3x8
facepull 3x10
Calf raises 2x15/Tricep pressdowns 2x10 Superset

Workout B
deadlift 3x5
Incline Bench 3x5
Leg curl 3x8
Lat pulldowns 3x8
Ab work 2x15/Curls 2x10 Superset

Just want to make sure I got this right, so for Squat you do 3 sets of 5 reps correct? and 3 sets of of 8 reps for leg curls right? Also, what kind of ab work do you do?

[davisj3537]

Just want to make sure i got the subs in correct.

Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
pendlay 3x8
facepull 3x10
Calf raises 2x15/Tricep pressdowns 2x10 Superset

Workout B
deadlift 3x5
Incline Bench 3x5
Leg curl 3x8
Lat pulldowns 3x8
Ab work 2x15/Curls 2x10 Superset

I am doing this with my Fiance (she will do half the progression) and we both do not like front squats. I loved RDLs though. Wasnt sure if the front squat/RDL switch for Deadlift/leg curls was the way i have it or vice versa.

Front squats are the SH*T! but you could swap them for leg press, leg extensions, step ups...etc.

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before or not.


Would a SLDL be an acceptable substitituion for the RDL? Why or why not?

I may consider switching the OHP for the incline bench as I see now in the OP. What was the reasoning for this? I know for a fact that this is a repeat question...if you don't answer by the time i'm out of work and able to read the older posts, i'll edit this and take this question out.

Thanks davis

SLDL is fine. Pec development.

what kind of ab work do you do?

You clearly didn't read much....original post.

[VmissileX]

^^thanks I read the older posts and forgot to edit it!

[jjhrrsn6]

Front squats are the SH*T! but you could swap them for leg press, leg extensions, step ups...etc.

Yeah, It just is not a comfortable position for me. Maybe I try the BB style grip, I just lack the flexibility in my wrists to get the standard grip.

I basically was going off the FAQ where it says:

RDL/Front Squat-You have to swap both for a Deadlift and a leg curl. This isn’t an either or kind of substitution.

So that means if I am getting rid of the front squat, I have to get rid of the RDL. How I initially read it, you would swap RDL for Deadlift and Front squat for leg curl which seems odd.

Is it accurate in saying if you do those substitutions, you would do 3x5 for deadlifts (being quad dominant compared to curls ) and 3x8 for leg curls.

so it is Front squat replaced with deadlift and RDL replaced with leg curl on Workout B.

Hope that makes sense, thanks for the help.

[davisj3537]

Yeah, It just is not a comfortable position for me. Maybe I try the BB style grip, I just lack the flexibility in my wrists to get the standard grip.

I basically was going off the FAQ where it says:

RDL/Front Squat-You have to swap both for a Deadlift and a leg curl. This isn’t an either or kind of substitution.

So that means if I am getting rid of the front squat, I have to get rid of the RDL. How I initially read it, you would swap RDL for Deadlift and Front squat for leg curl which seems odd.

Is it accurate in saying if you do those substitutions, you would do 3x5 for deadlifts (being quad dominant compared to curls ) and 3x8 for leg curls.

so it is Front squat replaced with deadlift and RDL replaced with leg curl on Workout B.

Hope that makes sense, thanks for the help.

My opinion on DL emphasis is against the stream. Front squat is a sub for DL and RDL for leg curl. I'm not going into that again, but the important part is doing a quad and ham movement.

I hate the clean grip doing front squats. Try the cross arm grip before giving up on it. It is a FAR superior lift to any of the subs I mentioned.

[jjhrrsn6]

My opinion on DL emphasis is against the stream. Front squat is a sub for DL and RDL for leg curl. I'm not going into that again, but the important part is doing a quad and ham movement.

I hate the clean grip doing front squats. Try the cross arm grip before giving up on it. It is a FAR superior lift to any of the subs I mentioned.

I actually read your points about the DL and agree FWIW. Thanks for the help, will try cross arm before subbing. Rep'd.

[Wan2BeFit]

You clearly didn't read much....original post.

I've read the first post multiple times, as well as many pages throughout this thread. I'm new to this and just trying to make sure I get it right!

The Original
Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Reverse Flies 3x10
Calf raises 2x15/Tricep pressdowns 2x10 Superset
Workout B
Front Squat 3x5
Incline Bench 3x5
Romanian Deadlift 3x8
Lat Pulldowns 3x8
Ab work 2x15/Curls 2x10 Superset (I don’t care what ab work you do)

In terms of sets/reps I see 3 sets of 5 or 3 sets of 8 for most exercises, however in the FAQ you talk about doing more reps so I'm a bit confused and would just like a clarification.

What about the different rep schemes, how do I know how much to use for each? For your exercises in the 5 rep range, I'd say use 8-10 rep maxes to start with. For your exercises in the 8-10 rep range I'd suggest using a 15 rep max. To find these rep maxes you'll want to go into the gym after a few days of rest and pick a weight you think you can do about 8 reps of. (After a warm up set) do as many reps as you can with it for one set and record your results. Do this for all of your exercises* (this was your entire workout for the day.) Plug your results into this calculator which will give you your 1, 5, 10 and 15 rep maxes.

I realize you say to do any ab exercise you like, but like I said, I'm new to this and was wondering if there were any ab exercises that were recommended higher than others. And 2 sets of 15 reps for abs only didn't seem like a lot to me so I just want to make sure I got that number correct.

Thank you!

[AugustineV]

Would this be an appropriate place to ask for a form check on this program? Or would I need to shoot up a PM or post elsewhere? About to go into a major deload with workout A after grinding out 225 on the squat and getting 3/4/3 on the BP and 5/5/6 on the Pendlay Row, even with 5 minutes between sets and a decent time between warm-ups. I feel it in my pelvic region so I'm not going to attempt to redo the weight on Saturday. Hopefully tomorrow's deadlifts won't be hampered, otherwise making good progress.

I've read the first post multiple times, as well as many pages throughout this thread. I'm new to this and just trying to make sure I get it right!

The Original
Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Reverse Flies 3x10
Calf raises 2x15/Tricep pressdowns 2x10 Superset
Workout B
Front Squat 3x5
Incline Bench 3x5
Romanian Deadlift 3x8
Lat Pulldowns 3x8
Ab work 2x15/Curls 2x10 Superset (I don’t care what ab work you do)

In terms of sets/reps I see 3 sets of 5 or 3 sets of 8 for most exercises, however in the FAQ you talk about doing more reps so I'm a bit confused and would just like a clarification.

What about the different rep schemes, how do I know how much to use for each? For your exercises in the 5 rep range, I'd say use 8-10 rep maxes to start with. For your exercises in the 8-10 rep range I'd suggest using a 15 rep max. To find these rep maxes you'll want to go into the gym after a few days of rest and pick a weight you think you can do about 8 reps of. (After a warm up set) do as many reps as you can with it for one set and record your results. Do this for all of your exercises* (this was your entire workout for the day.) Plug your results into this calculator which will give you your 1, 5, 10 and 15 rep maxes.

I realize you say to do any ab exercise you like, but like I said, I'm new to this and was wondering if there were any ab exercises that were recommended higher than others. And 2 sets of 15 reps for abs only didn't seem like a lot to me so I just want to make sure I got that number correct.

Thank you!

For the exercises that are in the 5 rep range, you want to start with lighter weight, and as such you would use a weight you can handle for 8-10 reps. With the 8-10 rep exercises, you would use a weight you can handle for 12-15. Regarding ab work, pick any. Cable crunches, leg raises, and the ab wheel are all good. Your abdominals already get stimulation from Squatting and Deadlifting (and their variations) so 2x15 is plenty, most programs don't even include direct ab work nor arm work because too much would be counterproductive.

[Wan2BeFit]

Would this be an appropriate place to ask for a form check on this program? Or would I need to shoot up a PM or post elsewhere? About to go into a major deload with workout A after grinding out 225 on the squat and getting 3/4/3 on the BP and 5/5/6 on the Pendlay Row, even with 5 minutes between sets and a decent time between warm-ups. I feel it in my pelvic region so I'm not going to attempt to redo the weight on Saturday. Hopefully tomorrow's deadlifts won't be hampered, otherwise making good progress.


For the exercises that are in the 5 rep range, you want to start with lighter weight, and as such you would use a weight you can handle for 8-10 reps. With the 8-10 rep exercises, you would use a weight you can handle for 12-15. Regarding ab work, pick any. Cable crunches, leg raises, and the ab wheel are all good. Your abdominals already get stimulation from Squatting and Deadlifting (and their variations) so 2x15 is plenty, most programs don't even include direct ab work nor arm work because too much would be counterproductive.

Okay great, thank you for the reply!

[davisj3537]

Repped Augustine. Feel free to post a form check here if you like, but you'll get more traffic if you post it in the exercise section. Feel free to post a link here if you do.

[HunterMC6]

Is anyone subed to all the Fierce 5 Journals? If so could you send me the links. Also anyone who wants sub's post your journal link here I want to get in on more of these I'm really curious where everyone is at with this.

[AugustineV]

Repped Augustine. Feel free to post a form check here if you like, but you'll get more traffic if you post it in the exercise section. Feel free to post a link here if you do.

thank you! I posted a thread just now, I'll link it here as well (mind you I can't post links yet so deciphering will be needed): h t t p : / / forum (dot ) bodybuilding (dot) com / show thread (dot) php ? t = 162795581 & p = 1264083111 # post 1264083111

[ljm1985mufc]

As mentioned in a previous post I have a dodgy lower back and had to replace the RDL for a back extension. Would I be able to swap the front & back squats for leg press and dumbbell split squats? If not then what would be the best subs to use? I can get away with DB splits, but having the weight higher up is causing mayhem on my lower back. Obviously iIdon't want to have to drop both dead-lifts and squats but I don't feel like i have a choice, at least until my back is better.

Thanks, LJM

[Leankev84]

Can I add drop sets on the isolation exercises and possibly bench press to aid mass gain, I'm doing 3x5 but feel it's not enough for maximum growth. Or is it a waste of time for a beginner program?

[davisj3537]

Is anyone subed to all the Fierce 5 Journals? If so could you send me the links. Also anyone who wants sub's post your journal link here I want to get in on more of these I'm really curious where everyone is at with this.

I'm in all of them, but I'm not subbed to any of them or I'd send them to ya. I'm not subbed to anything. lol

thank you! I posted a thread just now, I'll link it here as well (mind you I can't post links yet so deciphering will be needed): h t t p : / / forum (dot ) bodybuilding (dot) com / show thread (dot) php ? t = 162795581 & p = 1264083111 # post 1264083111

I'll check it out bud.

As mentioned in a previous post I have a dodgy lower back and had to replace the RDL for a back extension. Would I be able to swap the front & back squats for leg press and dumbbell split squats? If not then what would be the best subs to use? I can get away with DB splits, but having the weight higher up is causing mayhem on my lower back. Obviously iIdon't want to have to drop both dead-lifts and squats but I don't feel like i have a choice, at least until my back is better.

Thanks, LJM

You can do that if you like. Obviously your results will suffer a bit, but you need to do what your back will allow. I'd certainly switch back to the original program when your back allows.

Can I add drop sets on the isolation exercises and possibly bench press to aid mass gain, I'm doing 3x5 but feel it's not enough for maximum growth. Or is it a waste of time for a beginner program?

You can do whatever you like. I shouldn't have to give you my opinion on this as you should already know the answer I'd give. Read page 40. I posted an in depth description of the disadvantages of more chest work.

[davisj3537]

I'm rescinding my promotion of Lyle McDonald's Generic Bulking Routine. I love everything about it, but long term shoulder health isn't sustainable with the pull to push ratio in that program. Obviously I'm pretty critical of programs, but that is my cross to bare.

[jjhrrsn6]

I'm rescinding my promotion of Lyle McDonald's Generic Bulking Routine. I love everything about it, but long term shoulder health isn't sustainable with the pull to push ratio in that program. Obviously I'm pretty critical of programs, but that is my cross to bare.

Is there an upper lower that you would recommend instead? I see your intermediate plan is 6x a week which is not realistic for me. I had taken a month off from the gym and lost some strength. Decided to do a novice program with faster progression until I get back to where I was. I was on 531 BBB. Any chance you would make a 4x upper/lower with proper ratio?

Side note did front squats with crossover grip and really enjoyed them, thanks.

[davisj3537]

Is there an upper lower that you would recommend instead? I see your intermediate plan is 6x a week which is not realistic for me. I had taken a month off from the gym and lost some strength. Decided to do a novice program with faster progression until I get back to where I was. I was on 531 BBB. Any chance you would make a 4x upper/lower with proper ratio?

Side note did front squats with crossover grip and really enjoyed them, thanks.

Good news man. I'm considering writing one. Honestly I'd rather find one that is already good so I'm going to search a lot. If I can't find one I'll strongly consider writing one.