Kinda scared of all you powerlifters but I will try and be brave and ask anyway...

[PearlSoap]

OK please don't shoot me haha, but is there ANY other way of doing box squats other than...well......erm......using a box? You see, I attend a commercial gym and there isn't going to be any box squatting going on there. Is there a way I could use a bench? I'm just afraid I may fall off the bench if I sit back too much with 225lbs+ on my back LOL

[endymion88]

stack plates.

[Big Sexy J]

Use the step things used for aerobics.

Like this:

[PearlSoap]

endy - that is just not a possibility. All the wiggas will be like "yo who talk all the 45s", as they just love to load up their barbells and do 2inch ROM movements *rollseyes*

big sexy - excellent my map, repped already. A question on the big guy in the video. Said big guy does not SIT down and back on the "box", he sort of pushes his hips back and touches it and then pushes back up....or is that just me?

[laxxxer]

endy - that is just not a possibility. All the wiggas will be like "yo who talk all the 45s", as they just love to load up their barbells and do 2inch ROM movements *rollseyes*

big sexy - excellent my map, repped already. A question on the big guy in the video. Said big guy does not SIT down and back on the "box", he sort of pushes his hips back and touches it and then pushes back up....or is that just me?

a back squat is sitting back and not down. but yes many powerlifters use excessive hip drive on box squats.

[endymion88]

endy - that is just not a possibility. All the wiggas will be like "yo who talk all the 45s", as they just love to load up their barbells and do 2inch ROM movements *rollseyes*

big sexy - excellent my map, repped already. A question on the big guy in the video. Said big guy does not SIT down and back on the "box", he sort of pushes his hips back and touches it and then pushes back up....or is that just me?

lol i guess nobody has ever bitched to me when i do things like that. you could also get a milk crate or something and leave it at the gym.

[Philip81193]

big sexy - excellent my map, repped already. A question on the big guy in the video. Said big guy does not SIT down and back on the "box", he sort of pushes his hips back and touches it and then pushes back up....or is that just me?

Looks like you're getting it already!

[PearlSoap]

Looks like you're getting it already!

hahahha, i thought box squats were when you actually sat back and down

[viperjax]

endy - that is just not a possibility. All the wiggas will be like "yo who talk all the 45s", as they just love to load up their barbells and do 2inch ROM movements *rollseyes*

first come first served. otherwise use a bench and use increased weight to make up as best you can whatever rom you're short on.

as an aside, your timid tone in the OP and this statement about being afraid of offending someone have me wondering if you're a girl.

[Sharksinurmouth]

Gonna put it out there but if you're lifting raw I can't see box squats helping much, especially if you're still squatting 100kg.

Just squat for now, and when the weights get bigger do something like 5/3/1 with lunges after squats and GMs after deadlifts. Done.

[endymion88]

Gonna put it out there but if you're lifting raw I can't see box squats helping much, especially if you're still squatting 100kg.

Just squat for now, and when the weights get bigger do something like 5/3/1 with lunges after squats and GMs after deadlifts. Done.

iunno i like box squats. they serve the deadlift wayyy more than the squat but are a useful exercise all the same.

[Liftamulti]

Gonna put it out there but if you're lifting raw I can't see box squats helping much, especially if you're still squatting 100kg.

Just squat for now, and when the weights get bigger do something like 5/3/1 with lunges after squats and GMs after deadlifts. Done.

Box squats teach you how to squat properly whether you're squatting 50kg or 200 kg.

[DJSTARER]

plates, bumpers or milk crate.

[Dgwear]

i use to just use a bench but put one 45 plate under each foot to get me an inch off the ground

[blastbeats_stl]

Gonna put it out there but if you're lifting raw I can't see box squats helping much, especially if you're still squatting 100kg.

says who? mark rippetoe? Lol

[Sharksinurmouth]

says who? mark rippetoe? Lol

TM: If you had to choose between the free squat and the box squat, what would you choose?

My no BS, non-PC answer is this: free squats will trump anything in the weight room for sports. The recovery time is slower than box squats, but that should tell you something- it's a harder movement and requires more muscle, coordination, strength, etc.

This is easily seen by leg (quad and hamstring) and glute development of a free squatter vs. a box squatter. Box squatters usually have comparatively poor leg development. Some people will argue that you can make up for it with lunges, step-ups, or something similar. But all this tells me is that you could kill two birds with one stone simply by squatting without a box. (Remember training economy? You should, it's important).

Also, remember that teaching a free squat and having athletes do it correctly isn't as hard as you're probably making it. They DO NOT have to be 100% correct with their form; I'm not even close to what most people will say is perfect squat form, but I still get a lot out of it.

I believe that it's easier to teach box squats, but most of the problems that people have squatting (besides being scared or whatever) stems from lacking the proper mobility. To me, training for sports is two things: 1) Having the mobility to get into the proper position for sporting performance, and 2) Having the strength to maintain the position or move from the position.

That's really it. If someone can perform a free squat correctly, or at least fairly correct, that tells me that they're probably mobile enough to do most anything on the court, ice, or field. (Not always, mind you, but it's a good indicator.) So perhaps those guys who absolutely suck at free squats need their training to address the other problems that they're having.

I also think that three to four workouts to "find" their squat form is fine. You can use these weeks for some lower volume/less intensity work and have them build from there.

But I'm not entirely convinced that one needs to throw away the box squat either as it does have great applications, especially for those with knee problems. And some people are just awful free squatters...AWFUL. For these people, the box is fine.

Just remember that you have to treat the box squat as a separate exercise. Many lifters make the mistake of getting good at box squats, thinking that there is a carryover to free squats; it's only when they go out to free squat and **** themselves miserably that they realize that the carryover is limited at best.

That brings me to something that I've learned the hard way- the box squat transfers better to a geared free squat than to a raw free squat. I've seen this in my own training and countless others. Remember, a squat suit will stop you in the hole, much like a box would. And the suit/briefs will rocket you out of the hole, too.

So getting back to whether to choose a free squat or a box squat, the real question you have to ask is this: is it important to be good at the free squat, or is it just important that you (or your athletes) perform a squatting movement of some type i.e. box, free, Zercher, belt, etc?

You have to determine that for yourself, but in a perfect world, the free squat would be the number one squatting exercise for me.

Box squatting doesn't appear in most programs aimed at raw and single ply lifters (sheiko, coan cycling, smolov, 5x5 etc). Could it be that the best way of actually mastering a lift is to do it?

[Jason2459]

Box squatting doesn't appear in most programs aimed at raw and single ply lifters (sheiko, coan cycling, smolov, 5x5 etc). Could it be that the best way of actually mastering a lift is to do it?

I think the best way at mastering a lift is to get stronger.


That may mean doing the actual lift but I think one can get stronger at a lift by not doing it directly all the time. I rarely if ever do a regular full squat in training. I lift unequipped and only time I do a full regular squat is the week before a meet and the meet itself.

Otherwise it's always variations of the squat including box squats, zerchers, front squats, etc. I'm certainly not saying don't do full squats in training. It's just not something I've done or really can do all the time. Box squats have been great for me as I can sit back a lot more and takes a lot of preasure of my bum knees.

[Liftamulti]

Box squatting doesn't appear in most programs aimed at raw and single ply lifters (sheiko, coan cycling, smolov, 5x5 etc). Could it be that the best way of actually mastering a lift is to do it?

You act like you've never heard of westside. You act like you don't know they have loads of people that squat in the 800-900-1000 range, some doing it raw. Box squatting is the main staple in their routine. It's beneficially in teaching people how to sit back and squat correctly.

[Sharksinurmouth]

You act like you've never heard of westside. You act like you don't know they have loads of people that squat in the 800-900-1000 range, some doing it raw. Box squatting is the main staple in their routine. It's beneficially in teaching people how to sit back and squat correctly.

A lot of drugged, multi ply lifters squatting 1000lbs in a monolift huh?

I don't like westside methods. Obviously they work, but for average raw lifters who don't have access to reverse hypers and a fufu bar basic ol' periodisation and actually doing the lifts they intend to perform is going to be far more practical.

I think the best way at mastering a lift is to get stronger.


That may mean doing the actual lift but I think one can get stronger at a lift by not doing it directly all the time. I rarely if ever do a regular full squat in training. I lift unequipped and only time I do a full regular squat is the week before a meet and the meet itself.

Otherwise it's always variations of the squat including box squats, zerchers, front squats, etc. I'm certainly not saying don't do full squats in training. It's just not something I've done or really can do all the time. Box squats have been great for me as I can sit back a lot more and takes a lot of preasure of my bum knees.

Sure man, look if you get a lot out of it then go for it especially if its a knee issue. I think though that for most box squats have an unnatural pause at the bottom which makes them very different to a raw lift so I can't see a great amount of carryover, also intermediates like myself still suck at free squatting and need as much practise as they can get.

[Mr Beer]

Kinda scared of all you powerlifters but I will try and be brave and ask anyway...

Polite requests for information rarely get flamed here. Claims of awesome lifts without video evidence and asking for information followed by telling everyone they are wrong are the usual candidates for mockery.

[Jason2459]

A lot of drugged, multi ply lifters squatting 1000lbs in a monolift huh?

I don't like westside methods. Obviously they work, but for average raw lifters who don't have access to reverse hypers and a fufu bar basic ol' periodisation and actually doing the lifts they intend to perform is going to be far more practical.

If that's what you think that's all they do over at Westside Barbell then you don't understand their methodology.

[Sharksinurmouth]

If that's what you think that's all they do over at Westside Barbell then you don't understand their methodology.

A few points:

- Working to a 1RM every session is only going to get you so far.
- Westside ME methods work by rotating lifts that are applicable to a lifter. This is easy if you have a lifter in a team training at a well equipped powerlifting gym but what about your average gym? they dont have bands and chains the lifter with lockout issues does close grips, inclines and floor presses (he's skipping JM presses because they bother his elbows). Then what?
- Shoulder work especially pressing overhead is **** important for raw lifters. Westside methods tend to use the overhead press sparingly.
- Westside lower body assistance work tends to use equipment that is going to promote posterior chain development whilst not raping recovery (eg GHRs, RHs). Most gyms don't have these so most regular lifters simply do a type of deadlift (SDLs, RDLs) to get around this and end up getting fried.
- Talmant's work with tendo units pretty much dismisses the idea of speed work. The science behind it seems odd anyway as the %s used were taken from OL lifters which is a completely different ball game.
- Intermediates need actual practise of the lifts. Deadlifting every 3 weeks isn't going to give them this.

Westside has some strong lifters but its really hard to measure their strength when they wear multi ply equipment, and they certainly don't seem to dominate as much as the IPF guys who tend to employ sheiko methods.

I'm not that strong myself but these are just some observations I've made. From what I've seen, in its context westside works, but for your average guy at the bro curler gym they seem to get lifters up **** creek.

[blastbeats_stl]

i mainly do em for form. whenever i mainly do box squats then go to regular my form is perfect. When i dont do box squats for a while, then i go back to my old good morning squat ways

[Jason2459]

A few points:

- Working to a 1RM every session is only going to get you so far.

When did that ever become the normal? I don't know anyone that has based their training on what they have done at Westside that goes to a 1RM every session or even every Max Effort sessoin for that fact.

- Westside ME methods work by rotating lifts that are applicable to a lifter. This is easy if you have a lifter in a team training at a well equipped powerlifting gym but what about your average gym? they dont have bands and chains the lifter with lockout issues does close grips, inclines and floor presses (he's skipping JM presses because they bother his elbows). Then what?

There's a lot you can do with just a barbell and a rack. Get inventive and think outside the box. Chains and bands do not equal Westside's methodology. I trained at a conventional fitness facility for years and never had a problem. I now train at home and my setup is far and away with what they have available at Westside.

At the comercial gyms they wouldn't care if you brought in bands. I didn't use bands or chains however at the begnining and sparingly use them after that. Mostly for assistance work. I did bring boards into the gym and they didn't care about that either. They didn't like chalk however and just used liquid chalk.

BTW, you know Westside Barbell is just a Gym right? What they do changes all the time based on each lifter. You'd be surprised at how some of them train that you wouldn't think is the "Westside" methodology.

- Shoulder work especially pressing overhead is **** important for raw lifters. Westside methods tend to use the overhead press sparingly.

This shows how little you know. If it's important to you then incorporate them in. The methods they use at Westside would prescribe it if it is a weak point that will help you out.

Being that Westside is just a gym with a great coach and individual lifters they would help find your weaknesses and gear your training to help those weaknesses out to achieve your goals.

- Westside lower body assistance work tends to use equipment that is going to promote posterior chain development whilst not raping recovery (eg GHRs, RHs). Most gyms don't have these so most regular lifters simply do a type of deadlift (SDLs, RDLs) to get around this and end up getting fried.

Again, think outside the box. Btw, you probably have no idea what they all do for assistance work unless you've talked to them or been there for any length of time. Some of the guys there are doing some crazy **** for assistance work.

- Talmant's work with tendo units pretty much dismisses the idea of speed work. The science behind it seems odd anyway as the %s used were taken from OL lifters which is a completely different ball game.

Other research with tendo units show how it can help and the idea was taken from OL lifters but the % were modified. And modified. And modified again as the years went on. And still being modified. Some of the "dynamic" methods look more like RE work for some of the guys. For many its clasic speed work. Again, each individual is different.

- Intermediates need actual practise of the lifts. Deadlifting every 3 weeks isn't going to give them this.

You really think they only deadlift every 3 weeks? How about every week for some there and some less.

Westside has some strong lifters but its really hard to measure their strength when they wear multi ply equipment, and they certainly don't seem to dominate as much as the IPF guys who tend to employ sheiko methods.

I'm not that strong myself but these are just some observations I've made. From what I've seen, in its context westside works, but for your average guy at the bro curler gym they seem to get lifters up **** creek.

Multiply vs. IPF vs. RAAAAAAAAAAW is apple and oranges and grapes. Training for a geared meet and an unequipped meet is different. However, the basic methodology used at Westside can be used across all playing fields which is why I like it. Doesn't mean it's the only way to get stronger. I don't think any one "program" or method is for everyone. I also don't believe any one person should get all wrapped up into a certain method or program because they can all be useful and just going in and picking up a barbell will make you stronger. Not the program. Unless you're at an elite level then screw it. Just find something that you can stick with and be consistant with. I don't care what it is because it will work. Just don't keep switching up because you tried it out for a month and got no where.

[Big Sexy J]

I don't like box squats. I don't think they benefit me at all.

[TrettinR]

I don't like box squats. I don't think they benefit me at all.

This.

[Jason2459]

.....

I don't think they benefit me at all.

And that is all one has to say. It is what it is.

[Boridi]

You act like you've never heard of westside. You act like you don't know they have loads of people that squat in the 800-900-1000 range, some doing it raw. Box squatting is the main staple in their routine. It's beneficially in teaching people how to sit back and squat correctly.

links to "loads of people" squatting 900 raw?

[Sharksinurmouth]

When did that ever become the normal? I don't know anyone that has based their training on what they have done at Westside that goes to a 1RM every session or even every Max Effort sessoin for that fact.

The idea of ME work is to keep within 90-100% of your 1RM. What is it that you're reading?

Now let’s look at a constantly revolving system of exercises that are used on max effort day, always trying a PR. For the advanced lifter, do 3 lifts, all singles: one at roughly 90% and then a PR, and if it is truly a max, stop, if not, try one more, It is much better to break new ground as often as possible. Lifting weights
of 90% or more for more than 3 weeks will stop progress, but by rotating the core
special exercises each week, one can max out all year long. This system is the
supermaximal method.

So how do you use this method? First, decide on one main exercise that will be trained with this method. After a proper warm-up, proceed to this exercise and begin to warm up with the bar. Taking small weight increases, you begin to work up in weight with sets of three reps. When three reps begins to feel heavy, you drop down to single reps. This is when you begin to try to max out on the exercise. Keep increasing the weight until you've reached your one rep max. Make sure to keep track of what this record is because this is what you'll try to beat next time out. A max effort exercise would look like this:

In the above example, 425 would represent the lifter's one rep max. This is the number that should be recorded and that you'll try to break on a later date. It's very important to use this method with only one exercise per workout and no more than one time per week for each lift.

There's a lot you can do with just a barbell and a rack. Get inventive and think outside the box. Chains and bands do not equal Westside's methodology. I trained at a conventional fitness facility for years and never had a problem. I now train at home and my setup is far and away with what they have available at Westside.

At the comercial gyms they wouldn't care if you brought in bands. I didn't use bands or chains however at the begnining and sparingly use them after that. Mostly for assistance work. I did bring boards into the gym and they didn't care about that either. They didn't like chalk however and just used liquid chalk.

BTW, you know Westside Barbell is just a Gym right? What they do changes all the time based on each lifter. You'd be surprised at how some of them train that you wouldn't think is the "Westside" methodology.

Theres only so much you can do with barbell and rack. Conventional grip, narrow grip and rack pressing (latter unless rotated is an awesome way to piss off your shoulders. Face it, most guys at westside have a large variety of specialist bars that they can choose based on their weak points, fitness first doesn't.

This shows how little you know. If it's important to you then incorporate them in. The methods they use at Westside would prescribe it if it is a weak point that will help you out.

I didn't say you couldn't modify the template to incorporate them but there's a clear lack of emphasis on overhead pressing in westside methods. Please link me to a single Louie article where he mentions them, because from my memory apart from close grip incline presses (Bench Lockout, 2008) he recommends nothing of the sort.

Being that Westside is just a gym with a great coach and individual lifters they would help find your weaknesses and gear your training to help those weaknesses out to achieve your goals.

'Weakpoint' training ****s me. If you can't squat 600 your entire body is a massive weak point, not just your posterior chain.

Again, think outside the box. Btw, you probably have no idea what they all do for assistance work unless you've talked to them or been there for any length of time. Some of the guys there are doing some crazy **** for assistance work.

Brilliant logic - you don't train there hence you can't comment. Imagine if you did this with other methods:
- You havent trained in Russia with Boris so you have no authority to comment on sheiko methods.
- You aren't training with wendler at elitefts, your knowledge of 5/3/1 is therefore forfeit.
- You aren't with the pope right now at the Vatican. You have no idea whether he is/isn't catholic.

Lets just ignore the countless articles, books and journals out there on westside methods...

Other research with tendo units show how it can help and the idea was taken from OL lifters but the % were modified. And modified. And modified again as the years went on. And still being modified. Some of the "dynamic" methods look more like RE work for some of the guys. For many its clasic speed work. Again, each individual is different.

Link please.

You really think they only deadlift every 3 weeks? How about every week for some there and some less.

C'mon. Westside is pretty notorious for its lack of deadlifting. To begin with the squat/deadlift are trained in the same session with only one ME lift performed.

More evidence of a lack of deadlifting:

The Top 10 Deadlift Mistakes

Mistake #1: Training the deadlift heavy all the time

Very few people can train the deadlift week after week and still make progress. I feel the only ones who can get away with this are the ones who're built to deadlift. If you're built to pull, then the stress on your system is going to be less than those who aren't built to deadlift.

The deadlift is a very demanding movement and it takes a lot to recover from. This is compounded if you're also squatting every week. The squat and deadlift train many of the same muscles and this is another reason why you don't need to train the deadlift heavy all the time. Years ago the only deadlifts I did off the floor were in meets. The rest of the time was spent training the lower back, glutes, and hamstrings. While my deadlift increased 40 pounds over the first few years, I did run into some problems with this approach.

The major problem I had was when I'd go to a meet I didn't know where to place my feet and if I got stuck I didn't know how to adjust. Since I'm not built to deadlift, these things aren't natural to me. I had to find a way to put some pulling back in the program without taxing the system. What we came up with was a session of speed deadlifts with a moderate weight pulled for five or six singles. This way the weight was heavy enough to teach good form and not too heavy to tax the system. This worked out to 45 to 50% of max to be trained after the dynamic or speed squat workout. These don't need to be done every week but should be used as the meet or test day get closer.

I still suggest letting the box squat train the deadlift muscles with dynamic squat training of eight sets of two reps in a wave-like sequence. (For squat training details, see the following articles: Periodization Bible Part II, Squatting from Head to Toe, and TNT Part II for cycles and percentages.)

Let the max-effort day be for training the heavy deadlift. Try to pull off pins, off mats, or with bands one out of every four to six max effort days. Let the other day be some type of medium or close-stance good morning or low-box squat.

Also in 'Deadlift Training' 2001 Louie in his 26 workout deadlift program recommended 'for you to try' has you deadlifting a total of 4 times (1:6.5) of those only one session has the bar touching the ground.

Multiply vs. IPF vs. RAAAAAAAAAAW is apple and oranges and grapes. Training for a geared meet and an unequipped meet is different. However, the basic methodology used at Westside can be used across all playing fields which is why I like it. Doesn't mean it's the only way to get stronger. I don't think any one "program" or method is for everyone. I also don't believe any one person should get all wrapped up into a certain method or program because they can all be useful and just going in and picking up a barbell will make you stronger. Not the program. Unless you're at an elite level then screw it. Just find something that you can stick with and be consistant with. I don't care what it is because it will work. Just don't keep switching up because you tried it out for a month and got no where.

Some things work better than others. In my experience that's basic periodisation programs that actually practise the lifts and can be done in a conventional gym.

[Philip81193]

Honestly, I'm afraid to free squat because when I have a box I have a set ending point that gives me confidence to transition into the concentric portion. With a free squat, the only thing in my head would be "Where the **** is parallel, what the **** when will I get to depth?"