The Barbell Thread

**Keetman** · 03-25-2009, 01:09 PM

Ok here it is, a thread for people to go to for information on one of the staples of any gym that doesn't sell fufu coffee and pizza. I am going to post a couple of things to get it started, but my information is limited so I'm hoping everybody that has some info or links that will fit with the premise will jump on in. I'm no expert and not pretending to be, in fact if someone asks me a question past what I include here, I'll probably have to look it up

. I've learned most of what I know here, I'm simply trying to make a clearing house for all types of barbell info.

Generally barbells come in all shapes and sizes. There are standard barbells and olympic barbells; standard has one inch sleeves and Olympic bars have 2" sleeves. They use corresponding sized plates that will not safely function on the other type of bar. From there they can be just about any length up to 7 foot. Although I've no doubt somewhere someone has made one longer than that. The different length barbells have different purposes or are used for narrower clearance gyms. However, typically the 6' & 7' Olympic bars are the only ones that can be used on a typical bench press or power cage. The reason is the inside the collar length of the bar. That is, the portion of the bar that stops the plates from traveling to far has to be on the OUTSIDE of the bar holders on both sides. Olympic bars that are shorter than 6' reduce the inside the collar length to a degree that won't allow it to properly rest in those pieces of equipment.

Actually nothing about barbells seems to be "standard" or "typical". The diameter is about 28mm, but can be wider. Wider bars are harder to grip and so reduce the amount of weight a lifter can use until they have increased their grip strength. The length between the collars on a 7' bar is around 51", but again it needs to simply clear the bar holders on both sides. The weight of a bar is universally established at 45 lbs, but by now most experienced lifters realize there is no standard weight for the common bar. Here is a post I made awhile back illustrating this:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...barbell+weight

Bars also come in different qualities. Most everyone has seen the regular CAP brand bars that come with discount chain Olympic plate sets. These are shiny, have fairly sharp knurling, and have a big hex nut in the outer end of the sleeve. They do not have a monumentally large weight capacity and the hex nut has been known to occasionally back itself out, causing the sleeve to come off. Higher quality "Power Bars" are available that will hold much more weight, have better sleeve retaining designs, and free spinning sleeves for better comfort of the user?.many use bearings inside the sleeve for this purpose. Finally, competition bars are available for well...competitions! These are typically the highest quality, but very expensive and out of the budget of most home lifters.

As long as the bar you are using safely fits in the equipment you are using, is mechanically sound, and will safely hold the plates and collars you are putting on it...it should be just fine to get you started. Once you have graduated past the typical 255lbs that comes with a normal set, it may be a good time to treat yourself to a higher quality bar. When that time comes, make sure you research what you need to suit your individual needs, as once you get out of the cheap bars there are characteristics of each bar that will suit different lifters in a specific fashion.

**Keetman** · 03-25-2009, 01:11 PM

The standard school of thought is that cheap bars have hex nuts in the end and quality bars have ?pins?. This isn't necessarily true across the board, but it's a decent place to start. Some people have had questions as to what that all means, so I have taken apart a couple of my bars for review. The first one is my York Powerbar, which is one of the "pinned" bars. It is 7' long, 51.5" between the inside collars, and weighs exactly 44 lbs.

My 7' York Olympic Power Bar

Intact Sleeve

York Label on plate stops or inside collars

Punching out the pin

The "donut" end cap

The "Donut" and the pin

**Keetman** · 03-25-2009, 01:13 PM

Part 2:

Once I took the sleeve apart I cleaned the pieces I could with WD40 and fine steel wool. Then I used white lithium grease to thoroughly lubricate the inside of the sleeve. There are no bearings in this bar, just steel on steel.

Sleeve end without "donut"

Sleeve off

Inside of the sleeve. The circle and arrow mark the internal channels that are cut inside of the sleeve. Its hard to make out, but you can notice the elevation difference.

Sleeve post without sleeve

Numbers inside of plate stop. I noticed these numbers when I took the sleeve off, otherwise they are hidden. Don't know what they mean, but I assume they are used as some type of an identifier.

**Keetman** · 03-25-2009, 01:24 PM

Ok, I don’t have a 7’ CAP brand or other cheaper type Olympic bar. I’ve gotten rid of them as I have 2 of the York Power Bars and don’t need 3 barbells. I do have a CAP 5’ Bar that I’m currently using on my preacher curl bench. So, thought I’d go ahead and take it apart too. This was interesting. It was VERY hard to get the hex bolt off of the side I did. Had to wedge the hex key in a heavy plate and torque it just right. After I’d cleaned, lubed, and put it back together I tried to get the other end off and could not. I lost interest and gave up! Still, getting a chance to see how these are constructed was interesting.

5’ CAP Bar

Hex Nut Closeup

CAP Sleeve, nut, and bushing

CAP Bar without sleeve

**Keetman** · 03-25-2009, 01:25 PM

Closeup of sleeveless bar

Inside end of sleeve closeup. Notice smooth tube inside with lots of extra space (weaker) and the CAP logo on the outside of the sleeve…this logo is visible when the bar is intact.

Outside end of sleeve closeup

**captmorganm6** · 03-25-2009, 02:24 PM

Nice Keet. Good start to what should be a well used thread

**Bluerain** · 03-25-2009, 03:07 PM

This thread is so kool !!

Wow a picture really helps so freaking much..Great job with the pics ..really great .THANKS KEETMAN !

Wish I had bookoo reps to give ya .

Can we ask questions in this thread or just what we know about bars ?

**Keetman** · 03-25-2009, 03:24 PM

LOL Blue, you're funny. I may have started it, but I got my info and idea for the bars from you guys. This thread is the forums'. I think questions, answers, and links are a good way to make this thread a useful tool for us and any noobs that actually take the time to read it!

**Bluerain** · 03-25-2009, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Keetman

LOL Blue, you're funny. I may have started it, but I got my info and idea for the bars from you guys. This thread is the forums'. I think questions, answers, and links are a good way to make this thread a useful tool for us and any noobs that actually take the time to read it!

Hey Keet

This might be a silly question but here goes..

For some reason I have "Snap Ring Design " stuck in my head as being the best.

Now what does snap ring design look like ..any pictures ?

Thanks

**Wildtim** · 03-25-2009, 06:06 PM

Here is a Snap ring end bar:

Link to the bar itself: http://www.pendlaybarbell.com/wo15webar.html

I don't think the snap ring holds the sleeve on. My guess is it retains the end plate, under which is the real means of holding the bar together. Possibly a shoulder bolt

If this is the case (I don't own one to take apart and look at) The cap held in place by the ring would then keep the bolt from being able to back out. I've seen this type of thing done in other places where you want to prevent a fastener from moving.

**Keetman** · 03-25-2009, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Wildtim

.........I don't think the snap ring holds the sleeve on. My guess is it retains the end plate, under which is the real means of holding the bar together. Possibly a shoulder bolt

If this is the case (I don't own one to take apart and look at) The cap held in place by the ring would then keep the bolt from being able to back out. I've seen this type of thing done in other places where you want to prevent a fastener from moving.

That makes a lot of sense Tim. I've seen that type of end on several bars and wondered what was different about them. They've apparently went with a nut of some sort to hold it in, but have corrected the flaw that some have found with the cheap bars.

Blue, I don't know what the "best" is. The point of what ever fastener is used to keep the sleeve on the bar is just that....to keep it on the bar. Obviously, that joint has to be good, but I'm guessing there is more than one way to skin that cat. I would imagine that "best" would be more defined by strength, flexibility/shape retention (depending on intended use), type of sleeve rotation system, and the way the whole thing is put together. I'm sure this is a matter of personal preference, price, and of course intended use.

Here is a Bodysolid Power Bar with the same design:

It has a 200,000 P.S.I. strength, 1500 lb capacity, 86" long, 44 lbs and is Made in the U.S.A. with a lifetime warranty.

**animalfan** · 03-25-2009, 06:57 PM

my bar is a snap ring, i think. i don't see a bolt anywhere on the sleeve, and the end doesn't look like a cap. i haven't taken it apart yet, maybe sometime i will.

**Essexlad** · 03-26-2009, 03:00 PM

Thought I'd add my bit;

As Keetman said, there are a huge variety of olympic bars, I would split them into 3 main catergories;

1) Olympic weightlifting bars. These are made to IWF (International Weightlifting Federation) specification. The bar diameter is 28mm, the sleeves are 49.5-50mm in diameter and the bar is 2.2m (7ft 2 1/2 inches) long weighting in at 20kg total (44.08 pounds). This is for a mens bar. A womans is the same apart from 25mm bar diameter, and 15kg weight (33.07 lbs). They are usually quite a bit more expensive than a normal 'olympic barbell'.
They are made with quality steel mixes, with very high tensile strength to take the punishment of being dropped from overhead repeatedly. The steel used is also made quite springy, or with 'whip', this facilitates the explosiveness of the olympic lifts.

The spin of the sleeves is also one of the most important features, as it prevents wrist injury, so they tend to use high quality sintered bronze bushings or high quality needle bearings to enable the sleeves to spin well.

The knurling is also very complicated, giving enough to get a good grip, but not sharp, which would tear your hands to pieces during cleans/snatches etc.

The pinicle of these bars are Ivanko (USA), Eleiko (sweden), Schnell (Germany) and Uesaka (Japan) But these of course come at a huge premium.

If you want to read a bit more here are some interesting links;
How to bend an olympic bar;
http://www.ivankobarbell.com/PDF/BendBar.pdf
How to break an olympic bar;
http://www.ivankobarbell.com/PDF/How...mpic%20Bar.pdf
Why olympic bars cost what they cost;
http://www.ivankobarbell.com/PDF/Oly...%20Aritcle.pdf
A post off a crossfit board on Different bars;
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=10
An interesting study on the relative strengths of Olympic bars (bolded part at the bottom if you don't want to read it all);
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...4&postcount=42
Crossfit articles on choosing Olympic bars;
http://www.roguefitness.com/blog/?p=684 (part 1)
http://www.roguefitness.com/blog/?p=687 (part 2)

2) Powerlifting bars. These are mostly made in the U.S. and there is a huge variety in these bars. The bars vary from 29mm to 32mm diameter and 7-8+ ft in length. They tend to have VERY sharp knurling, to give better grip on deadlifts and bench, and have much less flex than olympic weightlifting bars as this is not an ideal property for squats and bench.

Specialist squat bars are often thicker (up to 32mm) and longer (8ft+)to allow for the sheer number of plates powerlifters use, and weight around 25kg (55lbs).

Specialist deadlift bars are 28-29mm (a thicker bar would inhibit grip) and are made with a more 'whip' (flex) in them. This is to allow the bar to bend more, so effectively the weight is lifted less height. They take a lot of grip strength to hold on to due to this springiness though.

Due to the sheer number of federations in the U.S., all with different specifications on equipment etc, the closest you can get to a standard power lifting bar is a Texas Power bar
http://www.troybarbell.com/store.php...on=show_detail

an Ivanko Power bar http://www.ivankobarbell.com/productsframe.html

or an Eleiko power bar http://www.eleikousa.com/eleiko_products_bars.html

all are 29mm, are IPF approved and are used for all the 3 lifts.

3) Everything else!

They can vary a lot, for a 7ft bar from 35lbs to 45lbs + in weight, and anywhere from 28-32mm diameter. The knurling can be razor sharp, or non-existant.
The use of thicker steel in these bars is so that a lower grade carbon steel can be used making them cheaper to make.
This use of low grade steel makes them very suseptible to bending, and they definately aren't supposed to be dropped repeatedly!

Quality seems to go up with price, using better (or more) bushings/bearings in the sleeves, more secure methods to attach the sleeves (like snaprings, yorks split sleeves etc), and higher quality and thus stronger steel mixes.

Due to the sheer variety of knurling/diameter/spin/quality I would always try before you buy if you can, or at very least use a reputable manufacturer.

You also have all the specialist bars, like safety squat bars, cambered bars, shrug/trap bars, fat bars to name a few.

Thats my 2 cents on bars! Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Just took apart my cheap chinese bar sold under the york name. The bolts were so loose I only had to use a finger to turn them round. Inside there were no bushings at all, and it's not even steel on steel like keetmans york bar, theres a 2-3mm gap between bar and sleeve. Needless to say it dosen't spin much! Can't wait to replace it!

**PullBig** · 03-26-2009, 03:16 PM

Alright here is my power bar. Has anyone ever seen one like this. I figure it is for olympic lifts because the collars are made to lock on to the bar by the grooves. Does anyone have any info on the bar other than it needs alot of work. It was free but was left outside for a while before it came to me.

**Essexlad** · 03-26-2009, 03:41 PM

just found this article also;

http://choosingabarbell.blogspot.com/

@ Bluerain, if you read the bit about sleeve construction, it says that a snapring is a good method as is the pin on york bars, but anything with a bolt in it is very inferior. I'm guessing the CEMCO bar is what Wildman said, a snapring holding on a endcap to cover a bolt like on Keetmans CAP bar.

The Pendlay he pictures uses a snapring on the endcap, but uses 2 snaprings inside to secure the sleeve to the bar, not a bolt.
See here for detail of the Pendlay;
http://www.strengthpowerspeed.co.uk/...ndlayelite.htm

And Pullbig, what the heck do the collars for that bar look like?

**Wildtim** · 03-26-2009, 04:35 PM

I'm stil trying to figure out how just a snap ring could hold the sleeves on?

Pull I've never seen grooves like that!

**new2lifting** · 03-26-2009, 04:44 PM

Dear Barbell Thread,

I have a cheap cap 7' olympic barbell that is warped a little...when I roll it it on the safety bars it is noticeable and doesn't roll smooth

so should I say screw it and keep lifting with it or upgrade?

what is the downside of a warped bar?

surely the damn thing won break with 275 and below on it?

wtf should I do

thanks...warped bar

**Essexlad** · 03-26-2009, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Wildtim

I'm stil trying to figure out how just a snap ring could hold the sleeves on?

Pull I've never seen grooves like that!

I'm not 100% on this, but if you look at Keetmans york bar without the sleeve here;

If you see where the ring of rust is on the inside collar, picture instead a cylindrical recess in the collar there. I think the sleeve slides in there and is secured with a snapring (or two). Quite how they'd get a snapring in there I'm unsure, but thats the only way I can see of doing it looking at the pictures of Pendlay bars.
I'm going to their UK supplier over the summer to have a test of them, If no one else figures it out or takes apart a snap rind bar, I'll ask to see one in pieces!

**crupiea** · 03-26-2009, 06:52 PM

Awesome thread, thanks.

**captmorganm6** · 03-26-2009, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by crupiea

Awesome thread, thanks.

Crupia, you own a Pendlay don't ya?

Is it held on by a snap ring and if so can you take it apart and post pictures of how it's done?

**captmorganm6** · 03-27-2009, 10:29 AM

Hey guys,I've e-mailed Glenn Pendlay to see if he can send me some pics on how the sleeve is attached to the bar with the spring clip design.

Keep ya updated and will post them when/if he sends them

**Bluerain** · 03-27-2009, 02:50 PM

Great posts everyone !

Yes I still don't understand how such a little piece of metal (Snap Ring )
holds it together.

This thread is great and having people take their bars apart will help all of us in making a informed decision. This will help not having to depend upon the maker's themselves being they all just about claim they have the best.

BB.com is a big site and most of the bar makers are aware of this site and having them know WE KNOW what constitutes a good bar can only help us in the end.

**captmorganm6** · 03-27-2009, 05:16 PM

Exactly! I let him know in my e-mail that we wanted it for this site

**Bluerain** · 03-27-2009, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by captmorganm6

Exactly! I let him know in my e-mail that we wanted it for this site

Smart move letting him know it's for this site..now watch the other bar
maker's start to come forward with info...if they don't than we can only make an informed decision with the ones who come forward when making a purchase.

I also would like to know the quaility of the steel these bars have so hopefully they are reading this thread.

We want answers ..after all the barbell is the center piece of all equipment !

**IvankoBarbellCo** · 03-30-2009, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bluerain

I also would like to know the quaility of the steel these bars have so hopefully they are reading this thread.

We want answers ..after all the barbell is the center piece of all equipment !

I'd like to know that too. Where are they making the bars, and what's the ASTM rating of their steel. Can't really move forward without that info. Especially those who claim that their bars are as good as "over priced" or "more costly" bars.

I mentioned on another thread, that there are so many steel mills left in the US where American makers (who use American steel) can really high-end bar stock. You pretty much know who's getting what from where. Or rather, where they're not getting it from.

Steel never comes perfectly straight from a mill. You have to "bend" it straight. Are they doing this? And then how are they doing the knurling? And if some have increased the specs on the tensile strength of their steel as they claim to have done, how are they absorbing the extra costs involved in machining the steel?

**AFXC1** · 03-30-2009, 06:14 AM

Great thread, subscribing!

**sunyatasamsara** · 03-30-2009, 06:16 AM

Sweet I was about to make this thread. I need to upgrade to an olympic bar now and if I get one by itself I'll probably go with the chrome. My question is what's the best barbell set and the more weight the better. What's the most weight you can get in a set. All my weights are standard so I need to get a set. It can be hard finding good barbells in stores so do yall know of any online sites that ship for free or have the best deals. I'm gettig it mainly for bench.

**glennpendlay** · 03-30-2009, 09:43 AM

captmorganm6,

Thanks for the email. Our bars use a system similar to Eleiko or Werksan, or other IWF certified bars, exterior snap rings on the bar shaft holding the sleeve from sliding off the end, on the Pendlay bar (not the elite) we use a shoulder machined into the end of the bar and an oversized brass bushing to hold the sleeve from sliding inwards.

The steel we use comes from Niagra LaSalle, one of the top north american steel producers. I believe our last batch was rated at 192,000 PSI tensile strength, and around 180,000 PSI yield strength. Each batch is slightly different on the strength numbers, not far off but slightly different.

Any bar in the 180,000 to 210,000 PSI range is going to be almost impossible to bend under normal use. Even dropped in a rack on pins, they will in many cases not bend.

glenn

**animalfan** · 03-30-2009, 10:53 AM

thanks for posting vinko and glenn!

i'm going to start saving my money for a nice bar, that's about all i am still wanting for my gym. i've got a decent bar now, not sure of the brand or quality, but it seems nicer than my cap bars. i've got a while before i buy one, so i have alot of time to research and read.

**DJStevieRay** · 03-30-2009, 10:53 AM

Incredible thread. Good to see some manufacturer reps here giving some insight as well.

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