Dorian gave up on squats, why can't I ?

[bluedot]

Well it's a good thing we all learned from this discussion instead of allowing it to turn into a pissing contest.

[mait128]

That's a pretty damn big if.

Tell me: Why is "tension" focused on the muscle all that matters? You have stated that multiple times...what does it accomplish, and why?

Ok, I'm not arguing now, just explaining. How do muscles grow? When specific demands are placed on them. I'm sure you know about fiber types, correct? To activate all of the types of fibers from the beginning of a lift a load of roughly 80% must be used. Relatively common knowledge. Well the size principle also dictates that a load of less than 80% can be used to still activate all muscle fibers, it will simply not happen from the onset.

When it comes to getting stronger, tension (the load) is the actual physical force exerted on the muscle. Tension is the overload force acting on the muscle. The muscle doesn't know what the source of the force is or where it is being generated from. Meaning, barbell, leg press, box of rocks etc.. it only knows that a load is being exerted on it. This is why I say it doesn't matter what exercise you perform to activate your quads muscles. The quad muscles only know tension. As long as 80% of 1RM is being used you'll activate all fibers from the onset. They can't tell if you squatting or leg pressing. They simply know a force (tension) is being exerted on them.

Squats are effective, but not for the reasons everyone assumes.

[Farley1324]

Ok, I'm not arguing now, just explaining. How do muscles grow? When specific demands are placed on them. I'm sure you know about fiber types, correct? To activate all of the types of fibers from the beginning of a lift a load of roughly 80% must be used. Relatively common knowledge. Well the size principle also dictates that a load of less than 80% can be used to still activate all muscle fibers, it will simply not happen from the onset.

When it comes to getting stronger, tension (the load) is the actual physical force exerted on the muscle. Tension is the overload force acting on the muscle. The muscle doesn't know what the source of the force is or where it is being generated from. Meaning, barbell, leg press, box of rocks etc.. it only knows that a load is being exerted on it. This is why I say it doesn't matter what exercise you perform to activate your quads muscles. The quad muscles only know tension. As long as 80% of 1RM is being used you'll activate all fibers from the onset. They can't tell if you squatting or leg pressing. They simply know a force (tension) is being exerted on them.

Squats are effective, but not for the reasons everyone assumes.

Why are you so singularly concerned about the quads?


And I disagree with your statement. Show me a human movement where the quads are used without any hamstring engagement, short of an excercise machine created for that purpose.

[mait128]

And who are you, exactly, and why should we listen to you and not Mark Rippetoe, All Pro, britlifter, Bill Starr, etc etc ad nauseum?

Ah ****e bro, do what you want. Just saying leg press work just as good at quad development as squats.

[mait128]

Why are you so singularly concerned about the quads?


And I disagree with your statement. Show me a human movement where the quads are used without any hamstring engagement, short of an excercise machine created for that purpose.

Enough already, I never said hams aren't used. I said a quad dominant exercise. Again, think whatever you want.

[GuyJin]

Just my two yen on all this...

Squats are considered the king of thigh builders, and, if done right--I stress those last three words--will build your thighs just as well as a leg press if not better PRECISELY because they involve all the stabilizing muscles. Leg presses don't, IMHO, although they are certainly effective as a thigh builder, no question about it, and they are safer.

The question is: What does the OP want to achieve? If he wants more strength, then squats are it; if he is looking for an alternative exercise which will give strength (in a different way) then leg presses are for him. It all comes down to a matter of preference, and I think he did say he was sick of doing them. If you're mentally burned out on an exercise, there is no point in doing it--the "I-can't-stand-this-exercise" idea will lead to a loss of concentration, a breakdown in form, and possible injury. So why do it? Nothing wrong in taking a break from it once in a while.

Yates stopped squatting in part because the amount of weight he could use was so high that he feared injury, and (I think) he had injured himself previously doing squats. For him, presses were a better alternative, and by that time, he'd already built up very large thighs. He had all the size he needed, so he changed over.

For what it's worth, the argument over which is better is moot. Both presses and squats will build you up; I just think that squats for overall size and conditioning are better because the WHOLE body gets involved, and not just the thighs. I'll agree that some of the stories about squatting are anecdotal at best, but there is an element of truth in them. Pretty much all of the pros (juicers) and even the natural pros used them in their formative years; only after they'd put on the necessary size did they (maybe) switch over.

So, to the OP, I'd say take a break from the squats for a bit--if you find you miss doing them, you can always go back again and do 'em, perhaps for a different set/rep scheme. If leg presses do the job for you, by all means, go for it.

Just my take on all this...

[StrikeOut]

And who are you, exactly, and why should we listen to you and not Mark Rippetoe, All Pro, britlifter, Bill Starr, etc etc ad nauseum?

its a little short sighted as well as ignorant to sit there and says squats are better cause he said so they may be better for him it dosent mean they are better overall, it works for those guys and im sure they do get better results doing squats as do a lot of people but it dosent mean it works for everyone, every single person is different and responds in different ways to different types of training, otherwise everyone would use the same training method

i have been lifting for a few years now and i get better results with leg press then squats because i have trouble doing squats properly because of my short shin bones and the slight Scoliosis in my spine there are exceptions to the rule also mait128 isnt saying the leg press is BETTER then squats he is saying in some instances they can be AS GOOD which i agree can it be substituted in some instances effectively if done correctly

[CaptainGorgeous]

Where does it say that, exactly??

It doesn't. I was merely suggesting that the common claim that, "squats are always the best," is not very accurate.

[Conius]

What personal trainers?

Most of them are dumbasses that wouldn't know a proper squat if they saw it. All of the ones I've seen (and 99% of the ones I read about) train people to do 1/4 squats with puss pads on a Smith Machine. (which = FAIL)

Can you get a video and post it up here?

No PT's that you'd know, but one of them has constant good results on his clients (they look good from what I've seen and don't get injured from what I've heard)

I'm all over puss pads, big fan because they save some bruising (thin skin and traps arn't yet large enough to take the full load of the bar) but i avoid the smith machine for them.

Range is parallel or just below though. I'll work on getting a video at some stage, see if my camera is capable of it. The more constructive criticism the better. I'll be running a fair bit very soon (training for a city wide run thats 12km) so any further leg injury could be catastrophic!

[Jeffo]

Ah ****e bro, do what you want. Just saying leg press work just as good at quad development as squats.

Well, in the world of natural athletes and athletics, it's overwhelmingly accepted that Squats are far superior to any other leg/hip dominant exercise for building strength AND muscle mass. This probably has to do with the fact that they activate more total muscle mass than leg presses, causing a greater hormonal release, and they are performed within the function of normal human mechanics, which requires stabilization and coordination. Actually, the only place this isn't universally accepted is on gym-rat BBing boards.

If the above doesn't make sense, then ask youself if your body would be more likely to adapt and improve when performing a natural movement using lots of muscle mass, or an unnatural movement using less? Having done hypertrophy cycles both with and without squatting, I can say squats do the job way better. There's actually no comparison.

That said, nobody has to squat if they don't want to. If the OP wants to do leg presses and extensions, who's to say he can't. Uglygymrat, if you don't want to squat, for whatever reason, then don't. You won't do as well without them, but we all do this for the enjoyment factor first. If you don't enjoy squats, then do something else you enjoy.

Cheers,
Jeff

PS: To the OP, are you sure you're squatting correctly? By the sounds of it, I can imagine you're doing something that resembles a squat, but is not quite the same thing. This might make the difference between hating and loving the movement.

[GuyJin]

The "enjoyment factor", Jeff. That sums it up quite nicely.

Good post.

[quest-x]

Well, in the world of natural athletes and athletics, it's overwhelmingly accepted that Squats are far superior to any other leg/hip dominant exercise for building strength AND muscle mass. This probably has to do with the fact that they activate more total muscle mass than leg presses, causing a greater hormonal release, and they are performed within the function of normal human mechanics, which requires stabilization and coordination. Actually, the only place this isn't universally accepted is on gym-rat BBing boards.

If the above doesn't make sense, then ask youself if your body would be more likely to adapt and improve when performing a natural movement using lots of muscle mass, or an unnatural movement using less? Having done hypertrophy cycles both with and without squatting, I can say squats do the job way better. There's actually no comparison.

That said, nobody has to squat if they don't want to. If the OP wants to do leg presses and extensions, who's to say he can't. Uglygymrat, if you don't want to squat, for whatever reason, then don't. You won't do as well without them, but we all do this for the enjoyment factor first. If you don't enjoy squats, then do something else you enjoy.

Cheers,
Jeff

PS: To the OP, are you sure you're squatting correctly? By the sounds of it, I can imagine you're doing something that resembles a squat, but is not quite the same thing. This might make the difference between hating and loving the movement.

Great post. All the points you made are great.

[Jeffo]

its a little short sighted as well as ignorant to sit there and says squats are better cause he said so...

Actually, this can be a good reason to believe someone. Ask yourself who Starr and Rip are and what they're basing their views on. I doubt Bill Starr based his view on himself alone. These guys have trained lots of athletes and regular people and, more importantly, could teach them how to do the movement correctly first hand. Generally speaking, people who get "poor results from squats, and better results from leg pressing," aren't actually squatting correctly.

A good example is people like this:

I'm all over puss pads, big fan because they save some bruising

This is usually a tell-tale sign that someone isn't holding the bar correctly and/or isn't tight enough. A low bar position eliminates this problem, and if you like the high bar position instead, you probably need to be tighter in the upper back. Both of these will also fix your mechanics, making squats all the more effective. Fixing this problem will also make squatting much more comfortable, meaning you'll be more likely to enjoy it. We all excell at things we enjoy.

Anyways, I stand by what I said earlier. If you haven't been taught to squat correctly and/or you just don't like it, for whatever reason, then nobody says you have to put a barbell on your back or you're not allowed to play too.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Panacea.]

i dont know how you have the patience for some of this, farley.

[ultragymrat]

To the OP, are you sure you're squatting correctly? By the sounds of it, I can imagine you're doing something that resembles a squat, but is not quite the same thing. This might make the difference between hating and loving the movement.

yeah, I am doing them correctly, I take form and technique seriously. Any form tweaking suggestions other than the general ones ?

[Jeffo]

yeah, I am doing them correctly, I take form and technique seriously. Any form tweaking suggestions other than the general ones ?

What is your squat style?

Jeff

[Farley1324]

yeah, I am doing them correctly, I take form and technique seriously. Any form tweaking suggestions other than the general ones ?

Post a video.

I'm all over puss pads, big fan because they save some bruising (thin skin and traps arn't yet large enough to take the full load of the bar) but i avoid the smith machine for them.

Change bar position. And get a video.

[Mr. Awesome]

This is usually a tell-tale sign that someone isn't holding the bar correctly and/or isn't tight enough. A low bar position eliminates this problem, and if you like the high bar position instead, you probably need to be tighter in the upper back. Both of these will also fix your mechanics, making squats all the more effective. Fixing this problem will also make squatting much more comfortable, meaning you'll be more likely to enjoy it. We all excell at things we enjoy.

Why? And what should be done then? I usually wrap my towel around the bar. How does this negatively effect the bar position and what is the right position then?

[Farley1324]

Why? And what should be done then? I usually wrap my towel around the bar. How does this negatively effect the bar position and what is the right position then?

It moves the bar up off of your back.

The right position depends on whether you are after a high or low bar position.

http://stronglifts.com/correct-bar-placement-on-squats/

[italianplaya30]

I read recently that Dorian decided that squats just weren't ideal for his frame (somewhat shorter legs? perhaps my problem ? ?) so he switched em for presses...

I have always really loathed squats, I mean I do them, but I always feel like I am being suffocated and crushed and strangled all at the same time (does everyone feel like this?). They are just hateful to me.
Do I just need to suck it up and enter hell on leg day or can I sub leg presses forever and be fine AND happy ( I don't mind presses and an MUCH stronger on them)

?

whatever your body feels comfortable with.....i much rather squat then do presses....presses arent ideal for my body

but

i never completely take them out of the equation.....you should alternate between squats and presses and get used to loving squats

[FitzChivalry]

And who are you, exactly, and why should we listen to you and not All Pro, britlifter, etc etc ad nauseum?

Don't like them? Don't do them.
And how did some guys that post a ton on an internet forum get placed on pedastals as the pinnacle of knowledge? I could find just as many guys on the other side of the equation.

[Farley1324]

Don't like them? Don't do them.
And how did some guys that post a ton on an internet forum get placed on pedastals as the pinnacle of knowledge? I could find just as many guys on the other side of the equation.

You think simply posting on the internet is what got them there?

ahahahaha


Besides, that is a classic (and poorly executed) ad hominem attack/fallacy.

[gainin_muscle]

Well, I never said I was dismissing the knowledge and experience of every single person on the board. What I'm simply saying is that unless one has PERFECT form on the squats, squats are not always the best nor most effective exercise. This comes from my experience. And quite frankly I've been lifting longer than most of the people on the board have been alive.

Squats work the entire lower body at once! If you want to add 3 or 4 more exercises to your routine to get the same or less benefit as squats, then go ahead. Your workouts will be longer. You don't have to do squats to build your quads, but I really don't see why you wouldn't. Usually the toughest exercises give the greatest results in the muscle building department (and that's just based on experience and common sense).

[Farley1324]

Squats work the entire lower body at once! If you want to add 3 or 4 more exercises to your routine to get the same or less benefit as squats, then go ahead. Your workouts will be longer. You don't have to do squats to build your quads, but I really don't see why you wouldn't. Usually the toughest exercises give the greatest results in the muscle building department (and that's just based on experience and common sense).

Exactly.

Why do so many people look for an excuse not to squat?


Because squats are hard. Plain and simple.

[sirr0bin]

Exactly.

Why do so many people look for an excuse not to squat?


Because squats are hard. Plain and simple.

Because they are pussies.

[bango skank]

'ello.

Even for a bodybuilder (read, especially for a bodybuilder) I think squats are important... and I'm not even talking about quad development, etc. - which has already been discussed. I mean for example if you chose to sub leg press and leg extension for squats you leave yourself open to injury. No, not injury during the exercise, you'd have to be made out of glass to injure yourself doing leg extensions... I mean you'll leave yourself open to injury outside of the gym.

Even if you have no ambition of playing any other sport, I'm sure that you will find yourself running at some point, maybe even sprinting, and an imbalance of quad strength to hamstring strength will almost certainly cause you to pull your hamstring muscle (depending on how signifiant the imbalance).

Strong quadriceps and weaker hamstrings result in a knee joint that is unstable during rapid acceleration and slowing, and the hamstrings are unable to counteract the powerful forces that occur during sudden stops and starts (like HIIT, for example). In other words, you do a sprint with extra-strong quads and weak hammies, and you are begging for a pulled hamstring because your hamstring isn't as strong as the quads and isn't able to perform an adequate eccentric contraction to keep your knee joint from hyperextending during a sprint. As a result, you strain the hamstring because, although it isn't strong enough to do the job, it will hurt itself trying. Training your quads and your hams separately is begging for a strength imbalance. Therefore it's neccesary to train the quad and the hamstring together, and in succesion, such as in the barbell squat.

And a pulled hamstring means no leg pressing, leg extensions, or any lower body work in the gym. And that's bad news if you're a bodybuilder.


So, why was it okay for Yates to not squat, but not okay for you?

1) Yates was an elite bodybuilder. He knew what his weakpoints were and what his strong points were and he came to the conclusion, after many many years of experience, that squats were no longer in line with his goals.

2) He did squat for many, many years previously. He didn't come to the conclusion that he never should have been squatting, but that he didn't need to focus on the squat from that point on.

3) You're not Dorian Yates.

Most people choose not to squat because they don't like it. It's hard work, squatting, and many people would rather not do it at all. If this describes you, you're being a pussy.

I think for every individual, no matter the specific goal, you need to squat! And if you're not going to squat in the gym, then you might as well not squat outside of the gym either. You can use one of those grabby-stick things that old people use to pick things up off of the floor. And you'll not want to run either. It's speed walking for you, my friend. Don't worry though, I'm sure your neighborhood has a club full of soccer moms that you can speed walk with. Afterwards, you can knit together in a circle.

[Jeffo]

Why? And what should be done then? I usually wrap my towel around the bar. How does this negatively effect the bar position and what is the right position then?

Wrapping a towel or the sissy pad around the bar usually means you're trying to give yourself some padding so the bar doesn't dig into your bones. The problem is, of course, that the bar shouldn't be on your bones in the first place. In other words, it masks the symptoms instead of curing the illness.

Farley posted a picture of the low bar position. In this position, there is enough meat there that your body couldn't support enough weight to give you a problem. This position also makes the mechanics of squatting through the hips easier, which makes you more stable, stronger, and saves your knees from taking the brunt of the load. People who knee squat complain that squats hurt their knees.

When you wrap a towel or sissy pad around the bar you won't be able to get it into the low bar position, as it'll probably slip down your back. So, in this case you just put it up higher on your neck and the whole thing becomes self-fulfilling.

The high bar position is a different story. I don't high bar myself, but if you like this position, you'll have to get good at tightening up your shoulders and traps to give you enough meat to put the bar on. Bring your hands in, raise the elbows and make sure your shoulder blades are pinched together tightly.

In the end, you'll never be a good squatter if you use a sissy pad. Never. Those who use a sissy pad haven't learnt good technique, so that makes it impossible to be a good squatter. Think about it; how many PLers use a sissy pad? These guys use sick weights; some of the 2 ply guys squat over a grand. Some of them wear a shirt that allows the bar to be held directly against the skin as well. It's not just the SHWs either, the lightweights do this too.

blah blah blah I'll shut up now lol!!

Cheers,
Jeff

[bango skank]

Wrapping a towel or the sissy pad around the bar usually means you're trying to give yourself some padding so the bar doesn't dig into your bones. The problem is, of course, that the bar shouldn't be on your bones in the first place. In other words, it masks the symptoms instead of curing the illness.

Agreed. And just to add 2 more yen...

How stable would you feel squatting on top of a pad? Well, the barbell suffers similar instability by sitting on top of a pad. An unstable bar makes for an unstable squat. Plus it raises the bar off your back (even if only slightly) which lengthens the lever between the bar and the hips... potentially turning a low-bar position into a high-bar position, or a high-bar position into an uber-high-bar position.

[IronAbrams]

1) Yates was an elite bodybuilder. He knew what his weakpoints were and what his strong points were and he came to the conclusion, after many many years of experience, that squats were no longer in line with his goals.

2) He did squat for many, many years previously. He didn't come to the conclusion that he never should have been squatting, but that he didn't need to focus on the squat from that point on.

3) You're not Dorian Yates.

All excellent points. I would also like to add:

[bango skank]

All excellent points. I would also like to add...

lol, well there goes the OP's next question:

Dorian won Mr. Olympia, why can't I?