Ask Someone Who Has Lost 150+ Lbs On Keto Anything....

[powerstripe89]

You will put back on some weight based on the simple process of refilling your glycogen stores. However, by slowly reintroducing carbs in a clean manner you can keep the fat off.

Awesome, thats what i wanted to hear, we'll see how this goes now, thanks for the info!

[ItalWHOP]

QUESTION:

Based off of the other thread what are your thoughts on LISS vs HIIT.

[daYDreAmErX]

Hai SCT

Just wondering, did you do any conditioning at all (I meant short and intense session, like tabata training, sprints, etc.) while on keto ? If so, did you see a decrease in overall performance ?

[Stonecoldtruth]

QUESTION:

Based off of the other thread what are your thoughts on LISS vs HIIT.

Ah! The ever popular debate. I have a wide range of thoughts on this matter, but here is what it comes down to. I believe that if you are lifting with enough intensity by the time you near your carbup you will NOT have enough glycogen stores for HIIT. However, HIIT shortly following a carbup is a great idea. Moreover, many people do not recover as quickly in the abscence of carbs.

LISS is a great way to target the fat stores specifically, which is why I tend to focus in that regards. Moreover, fasted LISS with BCAA supplementation is probably IMO the best keto cardio..

In the end, just do your cardio.

Hai SCT

Just wondering, did you do any conditioning at all (I meant short and intense session, like tabata training, sprints, etc.) while on keto ? If so, did you see a decrease in overall performance ?

Hi Val!

Tabata Intervals are one of my favorite things to do as a way to zap the remaining glycogen stores! Once fat adapted in Keto my overall performance actually increased in relation to endurance, but in relation to sprints my capacity was very slightly diminished.

[beyondthesmile]

Good morning

As you become fat adapted, are you able (or better able) to lift heavy and perform your cardio workouts in the gym even as glycogen stores near depletion?

[ItalWHOP]

Ah! The ever popular debate. I have a wide range of thoughts on this matter, but here is what it comes down to. I believe that if you are lifting with enough intensity by the time you near your carbup you will NOT have enough glycogen stores for HIIT. However, HIIT shortly following a carbup is a great idea. Moreover, many people do not recover as quickly in the abscence of carbs.

LISS is a great way to target the fat stores specifically, which is why I tend to focus in that regards. Moreover, fasted LISS with BCAA supplementation is probably IMO the best keto cardio..

In the end, just do your cardio.

I like it. Now the next question. If you're not doing CKD and are doing more of a TKD approach, would you agree HIIT would be better in the long term with proper carbohydrate/BCAA timing. Not for only fat loss, but general well being?

[beyondthesmile]

What kind of BCAAs do you guys recommend? The only BCAA product I know of right now is Xtend. Is there another one you'd recommend?

How do you guys take your BCAAs? (ie: prior to lifting/cardio, during lifting/cardio, prior/during one but not the other...lol.)

Thank you.

[MuscleHustleSS]

Stupid noob question which has probably been answered a million times on these forums but here goes.....

How does one know when their body is near glycogen depletion?

[Stonecoldtruth]

Stupid noob question which has probably been answered a million times on these forums but here goes.....

How does one know when their body is near glycogen depletion?

When your strength begins to falter and a bit and you feel like you are running on empty, you are probably near depletion. MOST people do not reach near depletion before they carbup, but some do a depletion workout which is essentially a full body high rep insanity fest that zaps the remaining glycogen. I personally prefer an approach where I carbup on a set schedule and rely on my lifting/various cardio activities to use up my glycogen stores.

What kind of BCAAs do you guys recommend? The only BCAA product I know of right now is Xtend. Is there another one you'd recommend?

How do you guys take your BCAAs? (ie: prior to lifting/cardio, during lifting/cardio, prior/during one but not the other...lol.)

Thank you.

Xtend is top notch for pure BCAA supplementation, Purple Wraath is a good EAA/endurance blend too though! I use them pre/during fasted cardio and during lifting/cardio.

I like it. Now the next question. If you're not doing CKD and are doing more of a TKD approach, would you agree HIIT would be better in the long term with proper carbohydrate/BCAA timing. Not for only fat loss, but general well being?

No, I would not agree. TKD is for athletes who require carbs to fuel their extended duration cardiovascular exercise. While HIIT may be optimal for fat burning in this regard, I think that Extended State cardio while maintaining an elevated HR it the primary real purpose of TKD. Again, in the end.. just do your cardio.

Good morning

As you become fat adapted, are you able (or better able) to lift heavy and perform your cardio workouts in the gym even as glycogen stores near depletion?

Yes, when you near glycogen depletion your capacity for higher intensity sprints and such may be somewhat reduced, but you will still be able to efficiently use fat as fuel. As I mentioned above, most people never come near emptying their glycogen stores.

[beyondthesmile]

Xtend is top notch for pure BCAA supplementation, Purple Wraath is a good EAA/endurance blend too though! I use them pre/during fasted cardio and during lifting/cardio.

<snip>

Yes, when you near glycogen depletion your capacity for higher intensity sprints and such may be somewhat reduced, but you will still be able to efficiently use fat as fuel. As I mentioned above, most people never come near emptying their glycogen stores.

Thanks STC! Much appreciated.

I'll order some Xtend.

If, after 2 weeks or so on keto, I am still functioning fairly well in the gym is it still okay to do a carb up? Does carbing up when glycogen stores aren't empty hinder fat loss (since I can't really tell how full or empty they are?)? Say you take in more carbs than needed to replenish glycogen stores?

I'm going to be doing short Saturday carb ups...basically from when I wake up on Saturday until bedtime at the latest (possibly limiting it to 12 hours). I was planning for that to be my rest day. Should I do a depletion workout Friday night and then start carbing up the next day or should I do it Saturday morning? The info I've read about this has been for people doing 36-hour carb ups and mine will be shorter so I wasn't sure when the depletion workout should be fit in. Do you think it's even necessary? I noticed above that you rely on your workouts throughout the week to deplete glycogen stores. I just don't want to carb up when glycogen stores are not empty enough and end up eating more carbs than necessary.

Thanks again

[Wtf?]

In general, how did you KEEP going?

I don't need to lose anywhere near that much, but I tend to play mind games with myself. Once I lose weight steadily and realize it's easy once you get going and stick with it..Once I do get off track, I let 10lbs or so creep back up and it's like in my head.."eh, once I start that again it'll go away".

Like I recently just gained 15lbs back. Of course, most of this is definitley bloat because my stomach has this pregnant look thing to it again and I'm retaining water from going from about 64oz of water to like 8oz a day. But I know once I start drinking water again..and I have a fridge of 3 gallons sitting there.. unopened... It'll fall off again and then back to the fat loss. Minus the 15 of bloat, I need to lose like 25lbs. :/

[Stonecoldtruth]

Thanks STC! Much appreciated.

I'll order some Xtend.

If, after 2 weeks or so on keto, I am still functioning fairly well in the gym is it still okay to do a carb up? Does carbing up when glycogen stores aren't empty hinder fat loss (since I can't really tell how full or empty they are?)? Say you take in more carbs than needed to replenish glycogen stores?

I'm going to be doing short Saturday carb ups...basically from when I wake up on Saturday until bedtime at the latest (possibly limiting it to 12 hours). I was planning for that to be my rest day. Should I do a depletion workout Friday night and then start carbing up the next day or should I do it Saturday morning? The info I've read about this has been for people doing 36-hour carb ups and mine will be shorter so I wasn't sure when the depletion workout should be fit in. Do you think it's even necessary? I noticed above that you rely on your workouts throughout the week to deplete glycogen stores. I just don't want to carb up when glycogen stores are not empty enough and end up eating more carbs than necessary.

Thanks again

Most likely at the end of the initial two weeks you will need to carb-up. Many people experience a return in energy and endurance in this time frame and fall under the fallacy that they do not need to carbup at that time. However, keep in mind that the purpose of the carbup is not solely for glycogen replenishment but also hormone regulation to KEEP the stored fat burning. There can be some spillover if you take in too many carbs, but that is why I personally avoid the 36 hour carbups and stick with shorter, and clean, ones.

Since you too are doing the shorter carbups I advise that IF you have anything left in the tank, do the depletion workout. However, once you become fully fat adapted (possibly before the next carbup) you may get to where you are hitting your stride with such intensity that by the time the carbup comes around you do not require the depletion workout as much. There have been some weeks where I do it, and some where I just do not need to.

So, to recap...

Carbup when you are supposed to, because you likely need it. If you truly don't, you aren't working hard enough. Depletion workout if you feel you've got any reasonable amount left in the tank, but once you hit your style.. you won't.

In general, how did you KEEP going?

I don't need to lose anywhere near that much, but I tend to play mind games with myself. Once I lose weight steadily and realize it's easy once you get going and stick with it..Once I do get off track, I let 10lbs or so creep back up and it's like in my head.."eh, once I start that again it'll go away".

Like I recently just gained 15lbs back. Of course, most of this is definitley bloat because my stomach has this pregnant look thing to it again and I'm retaining water from going from about 64oz of water to like 8oz a day. But I know once I start drinking water again..and I have a fridge of 3 gallons sitting there.. unopened... It'll fall off again and then back to the fat loss. Minus the 15 of bloat, I need to lose like 25lbs. :/

I was legitimately hoping this question would come up. One thing that I did not yet mention was that I too have ran into the complacency problem. I remember the first time I got into the 270s I thought I was hot stuff, as this was where I began to feel comfortable in my own body. I allowed myself to get off track, and the weight came back. For me, though, it came back like a train.. 50+ lbs later upwards and I realized I needed to deal with the mental side of it all as well as the physical.

Now instead of worrying about the 'big picture' as much, I try to follow one big guideline. ...

If I live today healthy, then I have succeeded.

Seek to make every day it's own goal and success/failure. That way, regardless of what happens today you get to move on and succeed tomorrow. This has helped me not only to STAY on track, but also to get more enjoyment from my fitness.

I still have goals that are measurable and trackable, but in the end today is the only day that matters to me right now.

[ItalWHOP]

Ok, fair enough....what do you feel the benefits are of LISS vs HIIT and vice versa?

[beyondthesmile]

Thank you SCT! I appreciate the detailed responses. This thread has been very helpful and informative.

Edit: OOPS, one more question. Sorry! The weeks I do the depletion workout, when should I do it? I am carbing up on Saturday only (12 hours max). Should I do it Friday night, or do it Saturday morning shortly before I start carbing up?

[Stonecoldtruth]

Thank you SCT! I appreciate the detailed responses. This thread has been very helpful and informative.

Edit: OOPS, one more question. Sorry! The weeks I do the depletion workout, when should I do it? I am carbing up on Saturday only (12 hours max). Should I do it Friday night, or do it Saturday morning shortly before I start carbing up?

What I would do is do the Depletion workout Saturday morning. I would start out eating some fruit (or fructose containing item) to kick you out of ketosis. By doing this you refill liver glycogen which knocks you out of ketosis and allows you to zap the remaining muscular glycogen stores during your workout. Then immediately post workout have a carb and protein containing shake and begin your carbup.

Ok, fair enough....what do you feel the benefits are of LISS vs HIIT and vice versa?

You are really nitpicking the cardio angle, but I'll play along.

HIIT has been shown to increase exercise and resting energy expenditure in a greater manner than low intensity steady state cardio (Hunter et al 1998). Moreover, despite having a lower percentage of calories from fat, the total fat calories burned were greater (Tremblay, 1994). There is also some ancedotal feedback suggesting that HIIT will work fast twitch muscle fibers in a manner that 'should' translate to more explosive power in lifting. One thing that MANY people miss is that unless you are hitting 90% of your V02 max, you are not performing

However, LISS has it's place as well. LISS cardio allows you to train for extended periods of time while not negatively effecting recovery. Moreover, you allow your body to hit a zone where the majority of your calories burned are coming from stored and dietary fat, which is one of our main goals while on a low carb diet.

That all being said, if you've reached a sticking point in your low carb journey. HIIT may be a great way to bust through a plateau. However, I do not feel it necessary for success.

Again, I say, just do your cardio

[beyondthesmile]

What I would do is do the Depletion workout Saturday morning. I would start out eating some fruit (or fructose containing item) to kick you out of ketosis. By doing this you refill liver glycogen which knocks you out of ketosis and allows you to zap the remaining muscular glycogen stores during your workout. Then immediately post workout have a carb and protein containing shake and begin your carbup.

Thank you!

[Jester_Molester]

I know carb cravings when you first start keto are normal, but do you ever get fat cravings during a carb up and is this indicative of anything? I've been through two carbups and always a few hours in my body's like "wtf is this ****? Gimme some steak and eggs *******!".

[Stonecoldtruth]

I know carb cravings when you first start keto are normal, but do you ever get fat cravings during a carb up and is this indicative of anything? I've been through two carbups and always a few hours in my body's like "wtf is this ****? Gimme some steak and eggs *******!".

Haha, whenever you get past the intial joy of eating carbs, the body quickly wants what it has become adapted to. It is funny because my body gets very carb craving right before a carbup and VERY keto craving about 2-3 hours in. This is not a sign that you should stop your carb-up by any means though.

One secret is that the cleaner the carbup, the better is seems to go for me. When I have had 'dirty' carbups I get sick of eating carbs much quicker. However, when you are eating clean carbs and hydrating properly your muscles send signals to keep the goodness coming.

Thanks for a great question!

I wish we could get this stickied, I am having fun with this thread.

[mar999]

Hey man what is your workout routine like?

[The_WickedyMan]

Another n00blet question here. How important is it to have a carb up day? Can you manage without it, could you explain this to me?

Also on carb up days should I be sticking to my calorie deficit?

[Stonecoldtruth]

Hey man what is your workout routine like?

This is my current log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?p=219056321

To break it down though:
About My Workout Plan:

Day 1 - Back
Day 2 - Chest
Day 3 - Cardio
Day 4 - Legs
Day 5 - Shoulders/Arms
Day 6 - Cardio
Day 7 - Cardio

It is my goal to never have a full 'day off', because I feel at this point in my fitness I recover quite fast and can at the very least perform some active recovery cardiovascular work. I have learned to love the pool for this very reason.

My forms of cardio will include:
Tennis
Basketball
Low Intensity Steady State (walking, jogging, swimming)
Higher Intensity Steady State (cycling, running)

Another n00blet question here. How important is it to have a carb up day? Can you manage without it, could you explain this to me?

Also on carb up days should I be sticking to my calorie deficit?

Carb up days are primarily for refilling glycogen stores however there are also a lot of hormone benefits to doing so as well such as to raise leptin/ameliorate some of the metabolic problems.

Carbups are usually slightly above maintenance, focused on clean carbs, lean proteins, and minimal fats. Reading the stickies usually provides a good idea. If you have specific carbup questions, ask away.

[ItalWHOP]

How many carbs and how long of a window do you feel is optimal.

[Stonecoldtruth]

How many carbs and how long of a window do you feel is optimal.

This really varies based on your existing Lean Body Mass. I believe that carbing up around 10% over maintenance is the way to go if you are cutting. Then just work out your macros according to that.
I personally rely on a 8-12 hour window to get in my 650g carbs, but I also eat clean carbups so it makes it so much easier.

[Ryanmcd]

I hate doing carb up's, I feel like **** get asthma back and allergies too. I do 30g of carbs after I workout and take in about 50-70 a day and do fine so far for weeks, I keep adding weight to my lifts and have no problems so far. I workout about 2-3 hours a day, 1 hour cardio and 2 hours weights.


For food I cook everything due to working at home

4 bacon 3 eggs AM
Shake w/ natty PB - 3hours later
Gym
Shake with Carbs
Dinner, meat w/ salad

about 2500- 3000 cals a day



Here is what I am taking,

Animal pack
San's triple strength fish oil
no-xplode - 1.5 scoops 10min before w/o
cellmass - 1 scoop 10min after w/o
ISOPure 0 carb shake, with 30g carbs from 1 cup juice
nitrix 3x a day every 6 hours


Can you think of anything I can do to help? I feel great and sleep about 8 hours a day and never run outa steam at the gym, thanks for all your help on this!

[The_Taubes]

Great thread

Have you heard of Good Calories Bad Calories?

I have just read the book after knowing very little about diet and thinking Atkins was an idiot and it really changed my mind. He implicates refined carbohydrates as the most likely cause of western diseases such as diabetes, heart disease and cancer and exonerates fat that has been beaten into the heads of the masses as universally bad. He is very meticulous has collected research from the past 150 years saying how there is virtually 0 evidence against a low-carb diet and 0 evidence for a low-fat diet. He has nearly 1000 sources.

[Stonecoldtruth]

Great thread

Have you heard of Good Calories Bad Calories?

I have just read the book after knowing very little about diet and thinking Atkins was an idiot and it really changed my mind. He implicates refined carbohydrates as the most likely cause of western diseases such as diabetes, heart disease and cancer and exonerates fat that has been beaten into the heads of the masses as universally bad. He is very meticulous has collected research from the past 150 years saying how there is virtually 0 evidence against a low-carb diet and 0 evidence for a low-fat diet. He has nearly 1000 sources.

Yes, it is a great book. While some of the sources are a bit off, the overall read it a good one. Another good one is the paleo diet, which kind of puts into perspective as to why food processing is bad.

I hate doing carb up's, I feel like **** get asthma back and allergies too. I do 30g of carbs after I workout and take in about 50-70 a day and do fine so far for weeks, I keep adding weight to my lifts and have no problems so far. I workout about 2-3 hours a day, 1 hour cardio and 2 hours weights.


For food I cook everything due to working at home

4 bacon 3 eggs AM
Shake w/ natty PB - 3hours later
Gym
Shake with Carbs
Dinner, meat w/ salad

about 2500- 3000 cals a day



Here is what I am taking,

Animal pack
San's triple strength fish oil
no-xplode - 1.5 scoops 10min before w/o
cellmass - 1 scoop 10min after w/o
ISOPure 0 carb shake, with 30g carbs from 1 cup juice
nitrix 3x a day every 6 hours


Can you think of anything I can do to help? I feel great and sleep about 8 hours a day and never run outa steam at the gym, thanks for all your help on this!

It sounds to me like you might be better adapted to a TKD where you do a small amount of pre and post workout carbs for fueling, and then you can avoid those 'dreaded' carbups.


Thanks to Fitnessman for the sticky!

[MarkVI]

Woot! Sticky! BTW, you should ask fitty for a picture of his fish eh caught.....geeze.



I have a question -- in clothes, do you look better now, or when you were all superjacked?

[Stonecoldtruth]

Woot! Sticky! BTW, you should ask fitty for a picture of his fish eh caught.....geeze.

I have a question -- in clothes, do you look better now, or when you were all superjacked?

Lol, I think I looked better with about 30 more pounds, in clothes. But shirtless now I look better.. I have lost some size on my arms. However, if I hit a lat spread now it looks much better, lol.

[MarkVI]

Lol, I think I looked better with about 30 more pounds, in clothes. But shirtless now I look better.. I have lost some size on my arms. However, if I hit a lat spread now it looks much better, lol.

I'm with ya man - - right now I have some extra MarkVI from being out of commission....but I look better in clothes, but there's no 6 pack awaiting me and others being shirtless so I gotta find a balance.



OH another question for you


what BF% do you find that you put on mass the best? for me it's a frustrating 13% or so.....meaning bulking sucks if I wanna keep my abs....at 13% I have enough, food, stored energy and water to really lift with everything I've got.

[Stonecoldtruth]

I'm with ya man - - right now I have some extra MarkVI from being out of commission....but I look better in clothes, but there's no 6 pack awaiting me and others being shirtless so I gotta find a balance.



OH another question for you


what BF% do you find that you put on mass the best? for me it's a frustrating 13% or so.....meaning bulking sucks if I wanna keep my abs....at 13% I have enough, food, stored energy and water to really lift with everything I've got.

Bah, bodyfat is overrated. Knowing how I lose fat I'd be comfortable bulking up to 20% and then cutting back down.