"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[davisj3537]

I'd probably Bench one session and spoto on the other (I do recall jonny candito recommends this on his U/L)

Upper A
Bench 3x5
Incline Bench 3x8
Lat Pulldowns 3x8 (any grip)
Bent Over Rows 3x8
Curls 3x10/Reverse Flies 3x12 Superset

Upper B
OHP 3x5
PAUSE SPOTO PRESS 3x8 / 6x4
Pullups 3x8
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Face Pulls 3x12/Tricep pressdowns 3x10 Superset

I'd PERSONALLY do 6x4 for the spoto press, but that's just what in found the best balance for my self on these. Much more and you can start to loose tightness and if that is the goal (and it is) then keeping all the reps in that style is the plan.

I'd also consider doing tng Bench the other day, or at least.. Pause rep 1 of each set top keep the skill and then tng the rest of the set.. But try the spoto press first.

Isolate 1 variable at a time..

This is just my take tho.

I'm just going to echo all of this. The idea behind adding pressing was to simply give those muscle more work. Doubling your bench sets to 6, maybe one of those being a joker set and adding in 6 sets of Spoto the other day would meet this goal adequately.

I would use the same progression protocol as the rest of the program. I'd start with somewhere around 10-15% less than your normal bench sets. Normal bench will have to be reduced as well since we're adding sets to it. You won't be able to bench the same weight 5x5 that you do now for 3x5.

In 2-3 months let's reassess and see how these changes have or haven't helped.

[DamonX]

I'd probably Bench one session and spoto on the other (I do recall jonny candito recommends this on his U/L)

Upper A
PAUSE Flat Bench 3x5
TNG Incline Bench 3x8
Lat Pulldowns 3x8 (any grip)
Bent Over Rows 3x8
Curls 3x10/Reverse Flies 3x12 Superset

Upper B
OHP 3x5
PAUSE SPOTO PRESS 3x8 / 6x4
Pullups 3x8
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Face Pulls 3x12/Tricep pressdowns 3x10 Superset

I'd PERSONALLY do 6x4 for the spoto press, but that's just what in found the best balance for my self on these. Much more and you can start to loose tightness and if that is the goal (and it is) then keeping all the reps in that style is the plan.

I'd probably keep them or at least start them at around RPE 7.. Stay painfully tight, a solid pause about 1/2 - 1" above the chest then EXPLODE the bar as hard as possible to lock out, make sure you are locked and tight then repeat. The last rep should look like the first, if not BETTER! Progression the same as usually prescribed.

Isolate 1 variable at a time.. This is just my take tho.

I'm just going to echo all of this. The idea behind adding pressing was to simply give those muscle more work. Doubling your bench sets to 6, maybe one of those being a joker set and adding in 6 sets of Spoto the other day would meet this goal adequately.

I would use the same progression protocol as the rest of the program. I'd start with somewhere around 10-15% less than your normal bench sets. Normal bench will have to be reduced as well since we're adding sets to it. You won't be able to bench the same weight 5x5 that you do now for 3x5.

In 2-3 months let's reassess and see how these changes have or haven't helped.

Okay so to clarify, this is how we are adjusting my routine for the time being:

-Bench press is now bumped from 3x5 to 5x5, with an additional set being a joker set(I will look this up), and occurs on Upper A. The rest of Upper A stays the same, including incline bench press.

-Upper B gets Spoto press inserted into the routine after OHP and before chest flys, doing 6 SETS of 4 REPS @ RPE 7, concentrating on keeping tightness the entire time.

-Progression scheme stays the same, however bench with the added volume will need a reduction in working weights, by about 10-15%.


Did I get all of that correct?

I noticed that what upper A davis mentioned (5x5 + joker set) vs. Ego's Upper A is different (PAUSE bench 3x5 + TNG Incline)

[davisj3537]

Okay so to clarify, this is how we are adjusting my routine for the time being:

-Bench press is now bumped from 3x5 to 5x5, with an additional set being a joker set(I will look this up), and occurs on Upper A. The rest of Upper A stays the same, including incline bench press. YES

-Upper B gets Spoto press inserted into the routine after OHP and before chest flys, doing 6 SETS of 4 REPS @ RPE 7, concentrating on keeping tightness the entire time.

-Progression scheme stays the same, however bench with the added volume will need a reduction in working weights, by about 10-15%. YES, but that's a guess. Might be more like 5%...you'll have to try it and see. Adjust weights up or down as you see fit when starting a new lift or in this case adding sets.


Did I get all of that correct?

I noticed that what upper A davis mentioned (5x5 + joker set) vs. Ego's Upper A is different (PAUSE bench 3x5 + TNG Incline)

Some answers above. There isn't really a wrong way on the exercises. My intention was to add 3 sets of pressing to both upper days. I didn't realize you'd kept flies (which is great.) In that case I'd do 3 sets of spoto, 3 sets of OHP and 3 sets of flies on B day.

For A day, if you're already doing a pause (spoto) on B day then I'd leave A day for normal touch and go bench press. Fits in with what Ego was saying about how it's nice to train both touch and go as well as pausing. We still want to add 3 sets somewhere. You can add them all to flat bench, add some to incline or put in a whole new exercise if you like...your pick. You can't mess this up really; we just need more pressing.



I want to note for a second that, this has to be a short term experiment limited to a few months. If you (or anyone reading) did this long term it would probably cause issues. We're only slightly altering balance so a short experiment will be fine.

[wowter]

Davis advocating more pressing. What has the world come to

[davisj3537]

Davis advocating more pressing. What has the world come to

I know right?

[Rebinho]

Hey man looks good.

questions; "The Intermediate Upper/Lower"

1. Is it alright for someone like me who has done alot higher volume(Keleis routine), down to your Intermediate upper/lower, with less voume? Can that cause any issues?

2. Why no lateral raises?

3. Can i do my own calf raises and abs routine`instead?

[davisj3537]

Hey man looks good.

questions; "The Intermediate Upper/Lower"

1. Is it alright for someone like me who has done alot higher volume(Keleis routine), down to your Intermediate upper/lower, with less voume? Can that cause any issues?

2. Why no lateral raises?

3. Can i do my own calf raises and abs routine`instead?

1. Yes
2. Because I have to take out something more important to put them in. Every other exercise serves a specific purpose and is carefully balancing something...lat raises do not. Adding them in won't destroy anything if it were the only thing you added.
3. Maybe, not sure what you mean exactly.

[backpain101]

I'd probably do the rest of the program as written and add in spoto press for 3-4 sets. If this doesn't work then I'd advise switching to either correctly running Lyle's program or trying smolov. Eventually we'll find what style of programming you best respond to.

Dang brother that sucks. I'm made of glass these days as well so I feel your pain and have to baby most joints as well.

FWIW, it really sounds like you've got some posture issues that are affecting your lifting. APT for example can cause back and hip pain. You think it would be isolated to the hips, but bad hip posture screws up your shoulder/rib cage/knees....etc. It's a ripple effect throughout your body. Have you seen anyone about this or just tried to do the internet warrior approach like I did?

Yeh internet warrior boss, never had pain until i started lifting again 5-6 months ago, only 23 too also i meant cant** put my shoulders back far enough when setting up for squats its super fkin tight.

APT is getting better from stretching and lower squat weight to try and get more load of my muscles instead of my knees. Honestly i think it has just been bad form on a weak body/tight body and its just throwing me through the hoops atm.

Realised today when OHP that my elbows at startup arent below the bar, more like at an angle like incline, so this could have cause the elbow discomfort (felt slick af to push directly up instead of incline)

But for squats i think loading the weight on the muscle is a problem for me. After like ~45 degrees I definitely dont feel **** in my legs lmao and at that point i think the weight shifted onto the knees and causing the pain.

[DamonX]

Some answers above. There isn't really a wrong way on the exercises. My intention was to add 3 sets of pressing to both upper days. I didn't realize you'd kept flies (which is great.) In that case I'd do 3 sets of spoto, 3 sets of OHP and 3 sets of flies on B day.

For A day, if you're already doing a pause (spoto) on B day then I'd leave A day for normal touch and go bench press. Fits in with what Ego was saying about how it's nice to train both touch and go as well as pausing. We still want to add 3 sets somewhere. You can add them all to flat bench, add some to incline or put in a whole new exercise if you like...your pick. You can't mess this up really; we just need more pressing.



I want to note for a second that, this has to be a short term experiment limited to a few months. If you (or anyone reading) did this long term it would probably cause issues. We're only slightly altering balance so a short experiment will be fine.

Okay thanks! So I looked up joker sets and apparently after your last set of prescribed reps. Its a series of sets of singles with heavier weights each time, until you reach the point where you've hit your max. This seems like it may fry me for incline bench which may come after. I'll see how it goes, but I may just not do the joker set and add the remaining set to incline bench press.

And yeah, this would be something we'd test out short-term.. as I'm guessing its because of the balance of pressing vs pulling exercises. I already have enough issues with my upper back muscles seizing up when my pressing muscles begin taking over/ hit certain weights.

[Metalmank]

When you start seeing deloads and resets as a good thing your results will improve. I'm gonna add a FAQ for it as it's a really common misunderstanding.

Edit: Added it and with an Ego quote no less.

yes

and yes.

Deloads and resets for days

[davisj3537]

Yeh internet warrior boss, never had pain until i started lifting again 5-6 months ago, only 23 too also i meant cant** put my shoulders back far enough when setting up for squats its super fkin tight.

APT is getting better from stretching and lower squat weight to try and get more load of my muscles instead of my knees. Honestly i think it has just been bad form on a weak body/tight body and its just throwing me through the hoops atm.

Realised today when OHP that my elbows at startup arent below the bar, more like at an angle like incline, so this could have cause the elbow discomfort (felt slick af to push directly up instead of incline)

But for squats i think loading the weight on the muscle is a problem for me. After like ~45 degrees I definitely dont feel **** in my legs lmao and at that point i think the weight shifted onto the knees and causing the pain.

I would consider seeing someone specializing in posture. I spent probably thousands of hours trying it on my own and still am massively lacking the knowledge needed to fix posture. It's very complex. If you check out the posturalrestoration website you can find a provider in your area specializing in it.

Some of it can be fixed by stretching and being more active, but you will always struggle with it if you don't get professional help.

Okay thanks! So I looked up joker sets and apparently after your last set of prescribed reps. Its a series of sets of singles with heavier weights each time, until you reach the point where you've hit your max. This seems like it may fry me for incline bench which may come after. I'll see how it goes, but I may just not do the joker set and add the remaining set to incline bench press.

And yeah, this would be something we'd test out short-term.. as I'm guessing its because of the balance of pressing vs pulling exercises. I already have enough issues with my upper back muscles seizing up when my pressing muscles begin taking over/ hit certain weights.

Well if you did a whole bunch of them and worked up to a max then it wouldn't be a great way to work them in. I feel like you might have read an explanation of it from someone that didn't know quite what they were talking about. Joker sets should be submaximal easy reps from 1-3 reps. So if you did 5x5 with 225 then you might do a single joker set of 1 rep at 235. That's it.

It all depends on how you're feeling. If you're feeling run down then don't do a joker set at all. If you're feeling great then maybe throw up a single of 20lbs over your working weight. It helps you ingrain good form during heavy singles since they are below your max and it helps you acclimate to heavier weights so you are mentally ready for moving up. A handful of other benefits as well.

yes

and yes.

Deloads and resets for days

Hadn't really thought much of it, but Ego posted that the other day and it seemed like the perfect quote for a FAQ.

[MyEgoProblem]

Okay thanks! So I looked up joker sets and apparently after your last set of prescribed reps. Its a series of sets of singles with heavier weights each time, until you reach the point where you've hit your max. This seems like it may fry me for incline bench which may come after. I'll see how it goes, but I may just not do the joker set and add the remaining set to incline bench press.

As Davis just answered... This isn't quite right..

The joker sets should, in addition to what Davis said...

Never be a grind..
Never let the bar speed drop
Never get out of the groove
Never be done if you are tired
Always be clean
Always explosive
Always leave (1 or 2) reps in the tank
Be the best damn reps of the day

It's basically all about building the skill of moving heavier weights then you can manage for your volume work with great form while fatigued..

Example training..
Pause Bench :
Bar x5 (x3)
40kg x3 (x3)
60kg x3
80kg x2
90kg x1
*95kg x5 (x3) @9rpe /1rep in the tank
100kg x1 @7.5 /maybe 3 reps in the tank
105kg x1 @8rpe /2 reps in the tank
107.5kg x1 @8.5rpe /maybe 2 reps in the tank

Ideally I'd stop here as the bar speed would likely drop and any higher would be a little too heavy with at best 1 rep in the tank and it may get a little out of the groove..wouldn't be "perfect".

[Freshdou]

Hi davis!

How do you feel about incorporating 30-45 minute conditioning routines on rest days such as Steady-state cardio, push ups/pull ups (not to failure), additional ab work, etc?

[davisj3537]

Hi davis!

How do you feel about incorporating 30-45 minute conditioning routines on rest days such as Steady-state cardio, push ups/pull ups (not to failure), additional ab work, etc?

Cardio, yes
push/pull ups, maybe
additional ab work, sure if you feel like wasting time

[bob2589]

So I swapped in split squats for lunges today on Lower B and my god are they humbling!

Started with the weight I was using for lunges and nearly fell over, and ended up with only body weight and was still struggling to stay balanced. Having issues especially when my right foot is elevated, which mirrors lunges as when I lunge with my left foot forward my foot always twists and toes end up pointing in. I think this may be as a result of pulling my left glute and it being really tight ever since.

Do I stick with it and nail the split squat or go back to lunges. Can anyone tell me the benefits of split squats over lunges? I certainly felt more ham and glute activation.

[davisj3537]

So I swapped in split squats for lunges today on Lower B and my god are they humbling!

Started with the weight I was using for lunges and nearly fell over, and ended up with only body weight and was still struggling to stay balanced. Having issues especially when my right foot is elevated, which mirrors lunges as when I lunge with my left foot forward my foot always twists and toes end up pointing in. I think this may be as a result of pulling my left glute and it being really tight ever since.

Do I stick with it and nail the split squat or go back to lunges. Can anyone tell me the benefits of split squats over lunges? I certainly felt more ham and glute activation.

You must be doing a bulgarian split squat. This requires a great deal of extension that I for one don't have. I like doing split squats in a lunge stance maybe a bit longer stride and just going up and down without the traditional lunge aspect of going forward/backward...etc. I have found keeping my glute tensed helps keep my honest.

Having said that, that's just how I like to do them. Bulgarian is fine as well. I just prefer the unelevated version because of the extension issue and I also feel it hits the glutes/hams pretty well.

Bulgarian, like you mentioned, will use less weight. Whatever I'm doing allows more. Not to say one is better than the other as I feel they are both great.



So how do you proceed? Whatever you feel is best man. Any of the 3 exercises are a fine way to move forward.

[bob2589]

You must be doing a bulgarian split squat. This requires a great deal of extension that I for one don't have. I like doing split squats in a lunge stance maybe a bit longer stride and just going up and down without the traditional lunge aspect of going forward/backward...etc. I have found keeping my glute tensed helps keep my honest.

Having said that, that's just how I like to do them. Bulgarian is fine as well. I just prefer the unelevated version because of the extension issue and I also feel it hits the glutes/hams pretty well.

Bulgarian, like you mentioned, will use less weight. Whatever I'm doing allows more. Not to say one is better than the other as I feel they are both great.



So how do you proceed? Whatever you feel is best man. Any of the 3 exercises are a fine way to move forward.

I was doing the bulgarians - It would have been a laugh watching me try and fail to hold my balance. I should have filmed it.

I will try the split squat you mentioned, maybe this will remove the issue i'm having with my left foot pulling inwards, as my foot will constantly be planted because of there being no forward lunge.

Does the lack of forward lunging reduce the range of motion of the exercise?

[DamonX]

Well if you did a whole bunch of them and worked up to a max then it wouldn't be a great way to work them in. I feel like you might have read an explanation of it from someone that didn't know quite what they were talking about. Joker sets should be submaximal easy reps from 1-3 reps. So if you did 5x5 with 225 then you might do a single joker set of 1 rep at 235. That's it.

It all depends on how you're feeling. If you're feeling run down then don't do a joker set at all. If you're feeling great then maybe throw up a single of 20lbs over your working weight. It helps you ingrain good form during heavy singles since they are below your max and it helps you acclimate to heavier weights so you are mentally ready for moving up. A handful of other benefits as well.

.

As Davis just answered... This isn't quite right..

The joker sets should, in addition to what Davis said...

Never be a grind..
Never let the bar speed drop
Never get out of the groove
Never be done if you are tired
Always be clean
Always explosive
Always leave (1 or 2) reps in the tank
Be the best damn reps of the day

It's basically all about building the skill of moving heavier weights then you can manage for your volume work with great form while fatigued..

Example training..
Pause Bench :
Bar x5 (x3)
40kg x3 (x3)
60kg x3
80kg x2
90kg x1
*95kg x5 (x3) @9rpe /1rep in the tank
100kg x1 @7.5 /maybe 3 reps in the tank
105kg x1 @8rpe /2 reps in the tank
107.5kg x1 @8.5rpe /maybe 2 reps in the tank

Ideally I'd stop here as the bar speed would likely drop and any higher would be a little too heavy with at best 1 rep in the tank and it may get a little out of the groove..wouldn't be "perfect".

Thank you so much gentleman. You guys are beyond helpful, truly appreciate both of you always taking time to answer my questions in depth and clarifying misunderstandings.

[davisj3537]

Does the lack of forward lunging reduce the range of motion of the exercise?

You play with it and tell me. lol

Thank you so much gentleman. You guys are beyond helpful, truly appreciate both of you always taking time to answer my questions in depth and clarifying misunderstandings.

Glad to help brother. Answering anything other than the tired old basic questions is a nice reprieve.

[bob2589]

You play with it and tell me. lol.

Haha how lazy of me. I'll give it a crack.

In other news, this is my second week back at it following my lay off and everything is still heavy as sin. Been trying to go double overhand with the DL and already feel my resolve waivering back to over under grip. Its so damn tough.

[mattpjj]

Hi, thinking about starting the Fierce 5 stuff, how do I know whether to start with the novice routines or go for the intermediate ones.

For background I've been on the Body Coach (Joe Wicks) plan for the last year.

[WolfRose7]

Hi, thinking about starting the Fierce 5 stuff, how do I know whether to start with the novice routines or go for the intermediate ones.

For background I've been on the Body Coach (Joe Wicks) plan for the last year.

What are your lifts for squat / bench/ deadlift currently? and your bodyweight

can be 5 reps 10 reps 1 rep

[MyEgoProblem]

Thank you so much gentleman. You guys are beyond helpful, truly appreciate both of you always taking time to answer my questions in depth and clarifying misunderstandings.

Glad to help brother. Answering anything other than the tired old basic questions is a nice reprieve.

Indeed!

I love to learn more, read more, help people and see everyone progress! hell I know nothing in the grand scheme but anything I can help someone with... Is nothing but a pleasure.

Especially when said person really wants it and is hungry for it.. /Ondpread

Hi, thinking about starting the Fierce 5 stuff, how do I know whether to start with the novice routines or go for the intermediate ones.

For background I've been on the Body Coach (Joe Wicks) plan for the last year.

What are your lifts for squat / bench/ deadlift currently? and your bodyweight

can be 5 reps 10 reps 1 rep

Default answer is usually... Novice.
Even if you just take a little reset, blast threw a month or so of it then move on to UL.

But numbers and how often u can add weight help us Dial in a response.

[RK42]

Does the lack of forward lunging reduce the range of motion of the exercise?

Just trying to apply logic and a bit of intuition here... I don't see a good reason why the ROM for the main muscles should be very different.

You're essentially skipping the phase of the walking lunge where you're taking the step. I don't think the ROM of any muscle is extended during that phase. One thing that does happen is that you temporarily stand on one leg, while holding a moderate to significant amount of weight in your hands (or on your shoulders for a barbell lunge). I picture some of the smaller muscles in your leg becoming very active while that is going on, to stabilize and balance yourself while standing on one leg.

So my theory is that some of the smaller stabilizer muscles might be worked better in a walking lunge.

The way I look at it, you have two options when you're struggling with an exercise: You either decide that it's not for you, and move on. Or you conclude that it's exercising something that you're bad at, and it's the perfect tool for improving that weakness. It could be using a muscle that you neglected to train. Or you could have poor balance, and the exercise allows you to work on improving it.

Just because something does not work well the first time is not necessarily a reason to give up on it. It could mean that you just need more practice to get good at it.

[mattpjj]

What are your lifts for squat / bench/ deadlift currently? and your bodyweight

can be 5 reps 10 reps 1 rep

Default answer is usually... Novice.
Even if you just take a little reset, blast threw a month or so of it then move on to UL.

But numbers and how often u can add weight help us Dial in a response.

Bodyweight is currently 65kg, bodyfat around 12% I believe.

I've not been heavy on the weights, so my current lifts (all based on me doing approx 4 set x 10 reps) are approx
Squat - 40kg
Bench - 45kg
Deadlift - 50kg

Appreciate any advice, thanks

[bob2589]

Bodyweight is currently 65kg, bodyfat around 12% I believe.

I've not been heavy on the weights, so my current lifts (all based on me doing approx 4 set x 10 reps) are approx
Squat - 40kg
Bench - 45kg
Deadlift - 50kg

Appreciate any advice, thanks

How tall are you?

I'd concur and say start on novice, especially if you say you havent been hitting the weights that often. You may also want to consider increasing your calorie intake to supplement the increased workload.

[mattpjj]

How tall are you?

I'd concur and say start on novice, especially if you say you havent been hitting the weights that often. You may also want to consider increasing your calorie intake to supplement the increased workload.

I'm about 5ft8in (173cm).

Yeah I'm doing some reading trying to work out my calories/macros etc. Any advice on amounts? Using some of these TDEE calculators around, most seem to say that I should be eating around 2,200 calories, does that sound about right?

[bob2589]

I'm about 5ft8in (173cm).

Yeah I'm doing some reading trying to work out my calories/macros etc. Any advice on amounts? Using some of these TDEE calculators around, most seem to say that I should be eating around 2,200 calories, does that sound about right?

That sounds a little low. Check out the stickies in the nutrition section. This one helped me especially - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981

I searched accurate calorie calculator in google and used one hosted on a site called scoobies or something. If you know your body fat you can use the katch mccardle calculator to get your TDEE and then use the measures in the linked thread to figure out your macros.

Id eat at a small surplus and measure it from there based on how you do.

[mattpjj]

That sounds a little low. Check out the stickies in the nutrition section. This one helped me especially

I searched accurate calorie calculator in google and used one hosted on a site called scoobies or something. If you know your body fat you can use the katch mccardle calculator to get your TDEE and then use the measures in the linked thread to figure out your macros.

Id eat at a small surplus and measure it from there based on how you do.

OK cool, thanks for the advice.

[gesler0811]

Just checking in to give a firm "kudos" on the reset protocol. Back on Friday 1/13/17 and Tuesday 1/24/17 (short deload in between) I attempted 3x9 on 195LB RDLs and failed both times, due to grip failure, but also the hams were having trouble keeping up.

After resetting back to 175LBS, working my way back up, I hit 3x9 on 3/10, and today hit 3x8 with 205LBS. So definite progress there. Grip strength seemed solid, no hint that it was about to give out, and hams were fine, so I'm expecting to get my 3x9 next week and then up it to 215LBS week after that.