CLOUT- Keeping It Real!

[Colinballin23]

A guy who needs TP for his bunghole

LOL I had to refrain myself from saying that. Damn I'm using Swole right now I don't want any product associated with that loser. Can I get a refund!!!!

[Patrick Arnold]

I do not know how they would get a patent on tricreatine orotate though, especially for synthesis, with there being no such compound in existence.

all depends on the examiner dude

[J-Rod]

all depends on the examiner dude

I hear that. Nevertheless, I was told that the examiner on this patent required a lot of detailed information from the Patent holders in order for this patent to be granted.

You would just think - and I am using common sense here (which may or may not be a good thing in some cases) - that a granted patent on the synthesis of a compound would mean the compound exists. And not just based off a molar ratio of 3:1.

[Sir Foxx]

LOL, if he would stop using his bunghole to talk, then maybe he would be more productive and release some new supps that work and not kill people like SU/UA.

Nice, you make an accusation, and offer no proof. Show me anything that SU/UA killed anyone, destroyed their liver, etc. Proof, not some punk-ass lawyers trying to make a buck by trying to convince un-educated jurors that something in a particular supplement hurt somebody without showing one iota of evidence to prove the point. Lipokinetix was a great supplement by an innovative company that unfortunately has been neutered by a preverse twisting of the law. You, unfortunately are contributing to this bull**** climate.

[Sir Foxx]

You could of always called....and when I see you at the Olympia you'll know that how pissed I am.

I am kidding of course.

Seriously though, I am not upset at all, at least not at you or even DC (even though his actions are malicious, and it is VEERY ironic when I gave him the idea to switch the first batch of his creatine product that contained tricreatine citrate (he had to drop it due to patent issues) and go to a malate, he mislabeled his product as a tricreatine malate). I am still not conviced you are right. However, If you are proven right, I may go to another form of creatine and include higher dosed Orotic Acid out of prinicple due to being lied to by a business partner, if this is indeed the case.

I do not know how they would get a patent on tricreatine orotate though, especially for synthesis, with there being no such compound in existence. With that said, I will give them the opportunity to prove to me that we do have a tricreatine orotate molecule using the proper nomenclature and not just creatine orotate, or dicreatine orotate and extra creatine floating around.

We do both know that this will not jeopordize the efficacy of the product, but questions have risen that demand answers, and that is what we will get.

Nice fantasy life you've got for yourself. I seriously doubt you gave anything to Derek. More like you took stuff in the dark of night, never to return, like a coward.

[velikimajmun]

Nice, you make an accusation, and offer no proof. Show me anything that SU/UA killed anyone, destroyed their liver, etc. .

American Journal of Gastroenterology
Volume 99 Issue 5 Page 950 - May 2004
doi:10.1111/j.1572-0241.2004.04165.x


Fulminant Liver Failure Due to Usnic Acid for Weight Loss
Francisco A. Durazo, M.D., Charles Lassman, M.D., Ph.D., Steven H.B. Han, M.D., Sammy Saab, M.D., M.P.H., Nancy P. Lee, Pharm. D., Marvin Kawano, Pharm. D., Bob Saggi, M.D., Sherilyn Gordon, M.D., Douglas G. Farmer, M.D., Hasan Yersiz, M.D., R. Leonard I. Goldstein, M.D., Mark Ghobrial, M.D., Ph.D., and Ronald W. Busuttil, M.D., Ph.D.

The use of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) in developed countries has increased significantly over the years. Among the most popular are the weight loss supplements or "fat burners." Liver failure due to these popular remedies has been widely recognized. Usnic acid has been an ingredient of dietary supplements that cause liver failure. Its hepatotoxicity has not been recognized because it is usually mixed with other ingredients that are presumably hepatotoxic. We describe a case of a 28-yr-old woman who presented with fulminant liver failure requiring orthotopic liver transplantation, after taking pure usnic acid for weight loss. This is the first report on fulminant liver failure associated with the ingestion of pure usnic acid. A discussion about hepatotoxicity of the different compounds of dietary supplements is presented. This is a reminder for the clinicians about the potential side effects of CAM.

[Patrick Arnold]

IYou would just think - and I am using common sense here (which may or may not be a good thing in some cases) - that a granted patent on the synthesis of a compound would mean the compound exists. And not just based off a molar ratio of 3:1.

don't use common sense with the patent office.

i have dealt with patents for 15 years

[DevilSmack]

Nice, you make an accusation, and offer no proof. Show me anything that SU/UA killed anyone, destroyed their liver, etc. Proof, not some punk-ass lawyers trying to make a buck by trying to convince un-educated jurors that something in a particular supplement hurt somebody without showing one iota of evidence to prove the point. Lipokinetix was a great supplement by an innovative company that unfortunately has been neutered by a preverse twisting of the law. You, unfortunately are contributing to this bull**** climate.

I was halfway kidding, so calm down cowboy. SU/SA is not a safe supp you can talk all the crap you want, but it will fall upon deff ears. Oh wait, you must think it's fun to breakout into a rash.

[DevilSmack]

Nice fantasy life you've got for yourself. I seriously doubt you gave anything to Derek. More like you took stuff in the dark of night, never to return, like a coward.

Are we just a bit bitter?

[DevilSmack]

American Journal of Gastroenterology
Volume 99 Issue 5 Page 950 - May 2004
doi:10.1111/j.1572-0241.2004.04165.x


Fulminant Liver Failure Due to Usnic Acid for Weight Loss
Francisco A. Durazo, M.D., Charles Lassman, M.D., Ph.D., Steven H.B. Han, M.D., Sammy Saab, M.D., M.P.H., Nancy P. Lee, Pharm. D., Marvin Kawano, Pharm. D., Bob Saggi, M.D., Sherilyn Gordon, M.D., Douglas G. Farmer, M.D., Hasan Yersiz, M.D., R. Leonard I. Goldstein, M.D., Mark Ghobrial, M.D., Ph.D., and Ronald W. Busuttil, M.D., Ph.D.

The use of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) in developed countries has increased significantly over the years. Among the most popular are the weight loss supplements or "fat burners." Liver failure due to these popular remedies has been widely recognized. Usnic acid has been an ingredient of dietary supplements that cause liver failure. Its hepatotoxicity has not been recognized because it is usually mixed with other ingredients that are presumably hepatotoxic. We describe a case of a 28-yr-old woman who presented with fulminant liver failure requiring orthotopic liver transplantation, after taking pure usnic acid for weight loss. This is the first report on fulminant liver failure associated with the ingestion of pure usnic acid. A discussion about hepatotoxicity of the different compounds of dietary supplements is presented. This is a reminder for the clinicians about the potential side effects of CAM.

Suck on that biaaaaach!

[Sir Foxx]

American Journal of Gastroenterology
Volume 99 Issue 5 Page 950 - May 2004
doi:10.1111/j.1572-0241.2004.04165.x


Fulminant Liver Failure Due to Usnic Acid for Weight Loss
Francisco A. Durazo, M.D., Charles Lassman, M.D., Ph.D., Steven H.B. Han, M.D., Sammy Saab, M.D., M.P.H., Nancy P. Lee, Pharm. D., Marvin Kawano, Pharm. D., Bob Saggi, M.D., Sherilyn Gordon, M.D., Douglas G. Farmer, M.D., Hasan Yersiz, M.D., R. Leonard I. Goldstein, M.D., Mark Ghobrial, M.D., Ph.D., and Ronald W. Busuttil, M.D., Ph.D.

The use of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) in developed countries has increased significantly over the years. Among the most popular are the weight loss supplements or "fat burners." Liver failure due to these popular remedies has been widely recognized. Usnic acid has been an ingredient of dietary supplements that cause liver failure. Its hepatotoxicity has not been recognized because it is usually mixed with other ingredients that are presumably hepatotoxic. We describe a case of a 28-yr-old woman who presented with fulminant liver failure requiring orthotopic liver transplantation, after taking pure usnic acid for weight loss. This is the first report on fulminant liver failure associated with the ingestion of pure usnic acid. A discussion about hepatotoxicity of the different compounds of dietary supplements is presented. This is a reminder for the clinicians about the potential side effects of CAM.

I see no proof offered in this abstract. At best I see opinion, but that is not even backed up with a theory on why they think the UA might be the reason for the liver failure. Try again. I've read this and a couple of others like it. It's no better than some Dr., and there are plenty, saying that too much whey will shut down your kidneys.

[Sir Foxx]

Suck on that biaaaaach!

See above.

[DevilSmack]

See above.

You will have to excuse my juvenile "suck on that biaaaach" comment. I am really just playing around. But, I really do believe UA/SU to be a dangerous supp. We could argue back and forth all night and you are not going to change my mind, so let's just drop it.

J-Rod is very well liked around here for good reasons, so stop being an A-hole.

[str8flexed]

I see no proof offered in this abstract. At best I see opinion, but that is not even backed up with a theory on why they think the UA might be the reason for the liver failure. Try again. I've read this and a couple of others like it. It's no better than some Dr., and there are plenty, saying that too much whey will shut down your kidneys.

mind referencing those studies showing whey shutting down the liver?

[jhov]

mind referencing those studies showing whey shutting down the liver?

I do not wanna get into all the bs ect but this caught my eye as well. Could you please reference that Sir Foxx?
Thanks in advance
peace
J

[pinetree]

Joey, you are a nice guy with great intentions but i am afraid that this patent holder is wrong. When electrons are shared between two atoms its called a covalent bond. When the electrons are not shared but there is a connection between the atoms due to electrostatic forces then this is known as an ionic bond. There is no in-between sort of bond as this guy suggests that allows such salts to exist

a monofunctional acid can form only one ionic bond with a base. Thats just the fact. Your product therefore must contain creatine orotate with perhaps some extra free creatine. This does not make your product "bad", i just think it makes it mislabled

It's insteresting discussion, I agree with your definition on ion bond and covalent bond, but I don't agree with your conclusion tricreatine orotate does not exist. Everybody may have forgotten creatine itself is carrying a carboxylic radical.

[Patrick Arnold]

It's insteresting discussion, I agree with your definition on ion bond and covalent bond, but I don't agree with your conclusion tricreatine orotate does not exist. Everybody may have forgotten creatine itself is carrying a carboxylic radical.

and that carboxylic group will attach to what?

[pinetree]

and that carboxylic group will attach to what?

Will attach to another creatine molecule since the guanidino part of the already attached creatine molecule is occupied by the orotic acid molecule, the carboxylic part of the already attached creatine molecule will be able to provide proton.

[Oxi]

Joey, you are a nice guy with great intentions but i am afraid that this patent holder is wrong. When electrons are shared between two atoms its called a covalent bond. When the electrons are not shared but there is a connection between the atoms due to electrostatic forces then this is known as an ionic bond. There is no in-between sort of bond as this guy suggests that allows such salts to exist

a monofunctional acid can form only one ionic bond with a base. Thats just the fact. Your product therefore must contain creatine orotate with perhaps some extra free creatine. This does not make your product "bad", i just think it makes it mislabled

You are apparantly not so deep into chemistry. There is no easily definable "ionic" and "covalent" bonds. All bonds are a mixture of one of three things, as graphed on a triangle. At each point of the triangle, is one of three types of bonds, covalent, ionic and hydrogen bonding. There are almost no bonds that are catagorized all the way in one corner of the triangle, which would be purely ionic, or purely covalent, or even purely hydrogen bonding (van der waals). Most bonds are a mixture of the three types of forces that bond compounds together.

I would appreciate the people who just have a basic knowledge of chemistry, like a course or two in high school or college to keep out of things that are WAY above them. A course or two, coupled with reading a bunch of stuff on the internet makes you no chemist. If you don't know what you're talking about, stay out of it.

I am a chemist. I also know that I am NOT a biochemist. I can tell you more than you want to know about synthesizing a compound such as this. What I cannot tell you is whether or not it is bioavailable, or if it works for bodybuilding. I know my knowledges limitations. You do NOT, you just assume you can draw your own conclusions from a limited base.

What you can tell us is what someone with just enough chemistry knowledge to show their ignorance can tell us. If you are just going on what you "think" not what you "know", please stay out of this, as this is an intersting discussion between J-Rod (who knows his stuff, and has done the literature searches and has PATENT backing from his producer) and a kid with an attitude problem.

I commend you J-Rod. Posting your patent information, and putting it there for the world to see (and scrutinize) is what we like to call "confidence" in my industry. And, to the burgeoning patent attorny who said the patent is crap, sometimes the simplist patents are the best ones, and sometimes the 80 page patent written by a team of lawyers has holes, while a short one covers all bases....

Keith

[str8flexed]

You are apparantly not so deep into chemistry. There is no easily definable "ionic" and "covalent" bonds. All bonds are a mixture of one of three things, as graphed on a triangle. At each point of the triangle, is one of three types of bonds, covalent, ionic and hydrogen bonding. There are almost no bonds that are catagorized all the way in one corner of the triangle, which would be purely ionic, or purely covalent, or even purely hydrogen bonding (van der waals). Most bonds are a mixture of the three types of forces that bond compounds together.

I would appreciate the people who just have a basic knowledge of chemistry, like a course or two in high school or college to keep out of things that are WAY above them. A course or two, coupled with reading a bunch of stuff on the internet makes you no chemist. If you don't know what you're talking about, stay out of it.

I am a chemist. I also know that I am NOT a biochemist. I can tell you more than you want to know about synthesizing a compound such as this. What I cannot tell you is whether or not it is bioavailable, or if it works for bodybuilding. I know my knowledges limitations. You do NOT, you just assume you can draw your own conclusions from a limited base.

What you can tell us is what someone with just enough chemistry knowledge to show their ignorance can tell us. If you are just going on what you "think" not what you "know", please stay out of this, as this is an intersting discussion between J-Rod (who knows his stuff, and has done the literature searches and has PATENT backing from his producer) and a kid with an attitude problem.

I commend you J-Rod. Posting your patent information, and putting it there for the world to see (and scrutinize) is what we like to call "confidence" in my industry. And, to the burgeoning patent attorny who said the patent is crap, sometimes the simplist patents are the best ones, and sometimes the 80 page patent written by a team of lawyers has holes, while a short one covers all bases....

Keith

Pat has his BS in organic chemistry. And even though there is really no clear cut "ionic" "covalent" or "hydrogen bonding"... more like electron clouds or what not, even most organic chemistry professors will simply refer to them as one of the three just for the sake of simplicity and conversation.

There is no need to showboat.

[Matt96teg]

You are apparantly not so deep into chemistry. There is no easily definable "ionic" and "covalent" bonds. All bonds are a mixture of one of three things, as graphed on a triangle. At each point of the triangle, is one of three types of bonds, covalent, ionic and hydrogen bonding. There are almost no bonds that are catagorized all the way in one corner of the triangle, which would be purely ionic, or purely covalent, or even purely hydrogen bonding (van der waals). Most bonds are a mixture of the three types of forces that bond compounds together.

I would appreciate the people who just have a basic knowledge of chemistry, like a course or two in high school or college to keep out of things that are WAY above them. A course or two, coupled with reading a bunch of stuff on the internet makes you no chemist. If you don't know what you're talking about, stay out of it.

I am a chemist. I also know that I am NOT a biochemist. I can tell you more than you want to know about synthesizing a compound such as this. What I cannot tell you is whether or not it is bioavailable, or if it works for bodybuilding. I know my knowledges limitations. You do NOT, you just assume you can draw your own conclusions from a limited base.

What you can tell us is what someone with just enough chemistry knowledge to show their ignorance can tell us. If you are just going on what you "think" not what you "know", please stay out of this, as this is an intersting discussion between J-Rod (who knows his stuff, and has done the literature searches and has PATENT backing from his producer) and a kid with an attitude problem.

I commend you J-Rod. Posting your patent information, and putting it there for the world to see (and scrutinize) is what we like to call "confidence" in my industry. And, to the burgeoning patent attorny who said the patent is crap, sometimes the simplist patents are the best ones, and sometimes the 80 page patent written by a team of lawyers has holes, while a short one covers all bases....

Keith

Do you know who PA is?

[Slated]

You are apparantly not so deep into chemistry. There is no easily definable "ionic" and "covalent" bonds. All bonds are a mixture of one of three things, as graphed on a triangle. At each point of the triangle, is one of three types of bonds, covalent, ionic and hydrogen bonding. There are almost no bonds that are catagorized all the way in one corner of the triangle, which would be purely ionic, or purely covalent, or even purely hydrogen bonding (van der waals). Most bonds are a mixture of the three types of forces that bond compounds together.

I would appreciate the people who just have a basic knowledge of chemistry, like a course or two in high school or college to keep out of things that are WAY above them. A course or two, coupled with reading a bunch of stuff on the internet makes you no chemist. If you don't know what you're talking about, stay out of it.

I am a chemist. I also know that I am NOT a biochemist. I can tell you more than you want to know about synthesizing a compound such as this. What I cannot tell you is whether or not it is bioavailable, or if it works for bodybuilding. I know my knowledges limitations. You do NOT, you just assume you can draw your own conclusions from a limited base.

What you can tell us is what someone with just enough chemistry knowledge to show their ignorance can tell us. If you are just going on what you "think" not what you "know", please stay out of this, as this is an intersting discussion between J-Rod (who knows his stuff, and has done the literature searches and has PATENT backing from his producer) and a kid with an attitude problem.

I commend you J-Rod. Posting your patent information, and putting it there for the world to see (and scrutinize) is what we like to call "confidence" in my industry. And, to the burgeoning patent attorny who said the patent is crap, sometimes the simplist patents are the best ones, and sometimes the 80 page patent written by a team of lawyers has holes, while a short one covers all bases....

Keith

...THE PLOT THICKENS

[pinetree]

Interesting, this really brings the discussion to a new level.

[Oxi]

I was not aware that he was a chemist as well. What I was really trying to say (without showboating) is that it is unrelated to the simple arguement of the multiple screen named person who is attacking J-Rod. I don't want to start trouble, especially if I am talking to someone who also knows their stuff...I want to help back up the people who know their stuff, and attack those who don't, and are trying to ruin J-Rods name for some reason.

Obviously, I entering the arguement WAY too late, and replied and further warped the thread from the actual reasoning...superman and whoever else he is. I have such a problem when kids read crap written by other kids on the internet and use it as fact without basis....

Apparantly, I took a detail you left out for simplicity....and made MY own conclusions about the omssion!! Doh' Remove foot from mouth Keith....

[superman100]

I have several things to say:

1. Thank you Patrick for posting on this. I figured this would be easy for someone of your caliber.

2. SKW (creapure) people were called and their PhD in charge of creatine chemistry discussed this issue. He said that there is no way there can be a tricreatine orotate. He looked up orotic acid and said that there can only be creatine orotate. It is that simple. Now Patrick is well respected but he wouldn't be called an expert in creatine chemistry. However, the creapure people are experts and this is the guy who knows everything there is to know about this sort of thing.

3. The PhD at creapure also said that the synthesis method in the patent was bogus and that it would not create a pure creatine salt at all.

4. Oxi, since you are a chemist, please explain in detail how you would synthesize tricreatine orotate. Why also would you commend Jrod for posting the patent. If you had a product on your label that didn't exist, wouldn't you also try to fall back on the patent holder and make him responsible for your error? What is commendable about this? If he is confident then he should explain the science as well as his testing procedures to prove the validity and quality of the product.

5. I am not DC, cornholio or whoever this guy is your talking about.

6. I have stated over and over again that I harbor no ill will against Jrod. He seems like a nice enough guy. However, I find it strange how he has responded as well as a few others here regarding a simple question as to whether this compound exists. I never accused, threatened, or in any way acted maliciously or said anything bad about Jrod or his product. I find it strange that regardless of this only a select few here have continued to get all emotional like women with their panties in a wad about how malicious I have been. C'mon get a life. Even this guy Oxi is acting strange. It's like you don't care about the truth only protecting Jrod. Consumers are interested in truth and that is all I am asking for.

7. The question that still remains is what the heck is even in Clout? Is it a mixture of creatine monohydrate and orotic acid or is it a reacted product. To me it makes a huge difference since creatine salts are so much better than plain ole monohydrate. Consumers deserve to know this. I am also concerned because it is now obvious that this material was never tested properly. Isn't it standard to test a product before and after manufacturing to make sure it is good quality? I am concerned about the quality control on this product.

8. Instead of running around like little children and making excuses when someone asks a simple question, it would be better to handle an issue like this in a mature fashion. Your attitude is, "How dare someone question Jrod or one of his products". To be honest with you, what does it matter if I were this DC guy or anyone else for that matter? If I am asking pertinent questions or have a legitimate concern and am respectful then what is the difference? You guys bashed me for my question but as you can see I had a legitimate concern. The best thing to do is just to answer the questions. If you are wrong then just admit the mistake like an adult and fix it. You will gain respect by the whole board and the fitness community. If tricreatine orotate DOES exist then you just won yourself a customer (and probably many more on this board).

9. I would hope that everyone here can treat me with respect and let's continue this as an adult scientific discussion regardless of who I am. I am not ridiculously promoting anyone's product or lying or saying untrue things.

[dio]

For someone who's not Derek, you sure write like him...

[UnleashedBeast]

I have several things to say:

1. Thank you Patrick for posting on this. I figured this would be easy for someone of your caliber.

2. SKW (creapure) people were called and their PhD in charge of creatine chemistry discussed this issue. He said that there is no way there can be a tricreatine orotate. He looked up orotic acid and said that there can only be creatine orotate. It is that simple. Now Patrick is well respected but he wouldn't be called an expert in creatine chemistry. However, the creapure people are experts and this is the guy who knows everything there is to know about this sort of thing.

3. The PhD at creapure also said that the synthesis method in the patent was bogus and that it would not create a pure creatine salt at all.

4. Oxi, since you are a chemist, please explain in detail how you would synthesize tricreatine orotate. Why also would you commend Jrod for posting the patent. If you had a product on your label that didn't exist, wouldn't you also try to fall back on the patent holder and make him responsible for your error? What is commendable about this? If he is confident then he should explain the science as well as his testing procedures to prove the validity and quality of the product.

5. I am not DC, cornholio or whoever this guy is your talking about.

6. I have stated over and over again that I harbor no ill will against Jrod. He seems like a nice enough guy. However, I find it strange how he has responded as well as a few others here regarding a simple question as to whether this compound exists. I never accused, threatened, or in any way acted maliciously or said anything bad about Jrod or his product. I find it strange that regardless of this only a select few here have continued to get all emotional like women with their panties in a wad about how malicious I have been. C'mon get a life. Even this guy Oxi is acting strange. It's like you don't care about the truth only protecting Jrod. Consumers are interested in truth and that is all I am asking for.

7. The question that still remains is what the heck is even in Clout? Is it a mixture of creatine monohydrate and orotic acid or is it a reacted product. To me it makes a huge difference since creatine salts are so much better than plain ole monohydrate. Consumers deserve to know this. I am also concerned because it is now obvious that this material was never tested properly. Isn't it standard to test a product before and after manufacturing to make sure it is good quality? I am concerned about the quality control on this product.

8. Instead of running around like little children and making excuses when someone asks a simple question, it would be better to handle an issue like this in a mature fashion. Your attitude is, "How dare someone question Jrod or one of his products". To be honest with you, what does it matter if I were this DC guy or anyone else for that matter? If I am asking pertinent questions or have a legitimate concern and am respectful then what is the difference? You guys bashed me for my question but as you can see I had a legitimate concern. The best thing to do is just to answer the questions. If you are wrong then just admit the mistake like an adult and fix it. You will gain respect by the whole board and the fitness community. If tricreatine orotate DOES exist then you just won yourself a customer (and probably many more on this board).

9. I would hope that everyone here can treat me with respect and let's continue this as an adult scientific discussion regardless of who I am. I am not ridiculously promoting anyone's product or lying or saying untrue things.

I'm not sold on the whole you not being DC thing yet. I will say that you may have been right with the no such thing as tricreatine oronate, but as I said in an earlier thread, it can be monocreatine ornoate. I don't care as long as it's good stuff .
I think we have right to say that you're against MAN. You clearly have signs of it. You're trying to make J-Rod look like a scam artist. First, in the other thread, you brought up problems that were already solved. Then, when you weren't responded to within a couple of hours, you say he's hiding. Gee, It's impossible to think that the man does do other things then surf bodybuilding.com. Even in your last post, you make it seem like you're against CLOUT. Or atleast, it came off that way. Also, you still haven't explained your alterego, "Lemony"
No, you aren't pimping products, however, you are putting them down without much reason.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

blablablabla

I want to see some logs.

[DevilSmack]

blablablabla

I want to see some logs.

What's wrong, you don't like drama? LOL

[CHUCK DIESEL]

What's wrong, you don't like drama? LOL

This should be moved to the scientific section. Everything looks good or sucks on paper, humans see results (or not).