Proof Lamar is elite and a top 5 QB

[LukeS1]

In terms of actual ability he's borderline top 10 at best. Typical flavor of the year running QB that fizzles out after all the media talking heads suck his dick after one good year. Defenses adjusted, he'll never come close to that MVP season again.

"Typical flavour of the year running QB"

Hes the greatest running threat the NFL has ever seen from the QB position



As a pure pocket passer hes not top 10, but his ability with his legs adds another threat, makes the running backs more effective, and makes the passing game more productive. Lamar doesn't need to have elite pocket passing skills to put up great passing stats, because defenses have to adjust to him and that leaves other things open

[LukeS1]

If you have to justify QB status with advanced stats you probably already lost the argument. Nobody is using deep statistical analysis to justify status of Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, wilson , ect..

Stop trying to convince people jackson is a great pass first QB. He is average, but his rushing is elite therefore the success he has is what you see.

Nobody ever said he was a great pass first QB

Hes a good passer, and the greatest of all time at running from the QB position. Together that equals an elite QB

[BearyManilowe]

Nobody ever said he was a great pass first QB

Hes a good passer, and the greatest of all time at running from the QB position. Together that equals an elite QB

If he's a "good" passer. He's not an "elite" QB.

Rushing =/= QB Statistic.

You can't even make up your mind man.

[LukeS1]

I mostly agree.

I just disagree with the notion that Greg isn’t supporting Lamar like some are trying to spin.

Imo Greg is doing everything imaginable to get the most out of Lamar... but this year everyone was blaming Greg for the slight drop off...

It’s not Greg.

Greg is trying to maximise the offense not Lamar. He's doing that by leverage Lamars ability to create a massively run biased offense

A bit more balance would allow Lamar to shine more, let's hope he gets a WR bring the best out of him

[LukeS1]

If he's a "good" passer. He's not an "elite" QB.

Rushing =/= QB Statistic.

You can't even make up your mind man.

If CMAC couldn't catch his rushing stats wouldn't be as good because the defense wouldn't worry about him rolling over to the slot

If Kelce couldn't block he wouldn't get as many receiving yards because he'd be covered by corners and safeties rather than linebackers


You cant separate them




Also by your logic Tebow wasn't an elite college QB

[BearyManilowe]

Not a single significant passing statistic in the top 10 during the 2020 season despite playing in 15 games
Top 5 QB

Pick one.

If CMAC couldn't catch his rushing stats wouldn't be as good because the defense wouldn't worry about him rolling over to the slot

If Kelce couldn't block he wouldn't get as many receiving yards because he'd be covered by corners and safeties rather than linebackers


You cant separate them




Also by your logic Tebow wasn't an elite college QB

I, like almost every other person around, knew that Tebow wouldn't transition well to the NFL because his passing ability was atrocious.

Greg Roman probably could have won 12 games with Tebow, chit he took Kaepernick to a Super Bowl, and I think Tebow was probably better than Kaep.

[LukeS1]

I, like almost every other person around, knew that Tebow wouldn't transition well to the NFL because his passing ability was atrocious.

.

Thats beside the point, we all agree Tebow was a horrible passer

But at the same time everyone agrees hes a top 10 all time college QB

Therein lies proof that you don't have to be an elite passer to be an elite QB. Its a lot tougher in the NFL to be a run heavy QB but Lamar is that electric he is great at it

[LukeS1]

[Youtube]EhxDfz2QaRo[/Youtu

Not a single significant passing statistic in the top 10 during the 2020 season despite playing in 15 games
Top 5 QB

Pick one.



.

You're talking about volume stats here, as mentioned previously he had way less attempts than the rest

26 TD passes is a lot for his volume, thats one every 14.5 throws, Mahomes had one every 15.5 last season as a comparison

His y/a is decent as well

[LukeS1]

Imo the biggest reason guys like Manziel and Tebow failed in the NFL is not their passing but their athleticism.

They were never going to be pocket passers, but they could dominate in college with their running ability. 4.7 speed is enough in college but its pedestrian in the NFL, you cant out run linebackers with that

Lamar has legit 4.3 speed, crazy change of direction and agility. Id in these metrics he is ahead of any NFL running back, mainly by virtue of him only being 210 at 6'2 because he doesn't have to take the hits.

Hes athletic enough to make the NFL look like college, he can out run DBs even when they have the angle on him

[DarthCholo]

"Typical flavour of the year running QB"

Hes the greatest running threat the NFL has ever seen from the QB position



As a pure pocket passer hes not top 10, but his ability with his legs adds another threat, makes the running backs more effective, and makes the passing game more productive. Lamar doesn't need to have elite pocket passing skills to put up great passing stats, because defenses have to adjust to him and that leaves other things open

I can get on board with this angle. There are many factors for offensive pass production stats and jackson's legs are a huge factor why hes able to get so many completions in the middle of the field. You can see the DBs and LBs hesitate so much when there's a chance he might run. You could say jackson gets recievers open with his legs vs other qbs. That's why his passed never look impressive. Just short to medium lobs over a defender with eyes on him.

You can't though say he's a elite passer like Mahomes and the others.

[LukeS1]

I can get on board with this angle. There are many factors for offensive pass production stats and jackson's legs are a huge factor why hes able to get so many completions in the middle of the field. You can see the DBs and LBs hesitate so much when there's a chance he might run. You could say jackson gets recievers open with his legs vs other qbs. That's why his passed never look impressive. Just short to medium lobs over a defender with eyes on him.

You can't though say he's a elite passer like Mahomes and the others.

Not just the passing game, the running backs are almost facing 10 guys as one will always wait to see if Lamar is keeping it himself

The Ravens are getting massive production out of some pretty average backs, that doesn't happen with a pocket passer QB

[Lunatic]

OP mentions that Lamar isn't a top 10 passing QB but claims he's a top 5 elite QUARTERBACK because of his running ability. Ignores and deflects points he can't argue against.

"the running backs are almost facing 10 guys as one will always wait to see if Lamar is keeping it himself" and you don't understand how this will leave WRs wide the **** open?

Ingram is averaging 4.6 ypc for his career, JK Dobbins averaged 6 ypc in 2020. You ARE cherry picking and then go on to talk about Manziel and Tebow failing in the NFL because they're too slow to outrun DBs, ffs. You're saying Lamar is a RB that can throw. That's all you keep saying and you don't realize it.


Why do you keep ignoring this?

[DarthCholo]

OPs comments are pretty legit. And I hate on Lamar Jacksons long term productivity all the time as once that elite speed goes away due to an injury, old age, or even coaching he'll become very average. I've gotten so many negs here for hating on Lamar. He may eventually not want to run as hard to avoid hits, or he might be coached to run less to avoid injuries and that is when he'll have to rely on his arm and defences will play pass more.

Passing wise he doesn't pass the eye test, has wiered mechanics and does terrible throwing under pressure. But the number speak for themselves, he can be a good passer. His legs give him the passing opportunities right now.

[Belome]

Greg is trying to maximise the offense not Lamar. He's doing that by leverage Lamars ability to create a massively run biased offense

A bit more balance would allow Lamar to shine more, let's hope he gets a WR bring the best out of him

I disagree. I don’t think this offense can be balanced at all because Lamar is one dimensional.

When they get behind and have to rely on the pass it’s damn near a 100% fail rate.

No stat exists that says Lamar can beat you with his arm, hell, in the post season he struggles to beat you with his legs and that’s his bread and butter.

You can think he’s a top 5 Qb, but imo he has done absolutely nothing to prove it as of yet.

Two seasons ago I gave them a 3 year window to win a Ship before he fades completely.

I still think that’s the case.

If they don’t win the Ship next year and make the playoffs with what I’m guessing a 10-6 or 11-5 record... the door is shut.

[LukeS1]

"the running backs are almost facing 10 guys as one will always wait to see if Lamar is keeping it himself" and you don't understand how this will leave WRs wide the **** open?

Of course he does, thats literally my point

The pass rush is less aggressive because they can't break contain, there's always a QB spy, the DBs and Linebackers are always looking back to see if Lamar takes off, its tough to play man coverage because play design can pull open space


But all of that comes from Lamar, and facing that kind of defense he is good enough to put up great passing stats without being an elite passer. Of course this is on top of adding a low risk and consistent 70-80 yards of rushing yards a game



Trying to understand how good he would be if he couldn't run and faced the same defenses as Phillip Rivers is pointless, but FWIW I agree he wouldn't be any good

[LukeS1]

I
Two seasons ago I gave them a 3 year window to win a Ship before he fades completely.

I still think that’s the case.

If they don’t win the Ship next year and make the playoffs with what I’m guessing a 10-6 or 11-5 record... the door is shut.

I agree Lamar has a short window compared to conventional QBs, but this is too far

The guy finished this season aged 23. His window is probably the same as a running back, maybe until 28 or so, obviously one injury can change that but he avoids hits well

[HoganIsGOAT]

Lamar is a lower end, top tier quarterback right now, and this coming season will probably decide which direction he’s trending in.

Great runner but I’ve never been a fan. After he ages, he’ll have to rely more on passing and more specifically, pocket passing. Which he is pretty bad at.

[LukeS1]

Lamar is a lower end, top tier quarterback right now, and this coming season will probably decide which direction he’s trending in.

Great runner but I’ve never been a fan. After he ages, he’ll have to rely more on passing and more specifically, pocket passing. Which he is pretty bad at.

Your arguement is about longevity not ability. No doubt he wont still be a starter when he's 35-40, but that doesnt mean he's not great for the 5-8 years of his prime

[LukeS1]

Lamar ranks 4th all time for most Touchdowns in first 3 seasons in the NFL with 87, only Dan Marino (98), Luck (98) and Peyton (88)


Lamar only started 37 of the 48 games in those seasons. Marino 41, Peyton and Luck both 48

[Belome]

Lamar ranks 4th all time for most Touchdowns in first 3 seasons in the NFL with 87, only Dan Marino (98), Luck (98) and Peyton (88)


Lamar only started 37 of the 48 games in those seasons. Marino 41, Peyton and Luck both 48

Mahomes having like 120 touchdowns in his first 3 seasons as a starter is more impressive.


But somthing tells me all of those players at the year 5 mark will have Lamar lapped 3 times and left in the dust.

But we’ll see.

[LukeS1]

Mahomes having like 120 touchdowns in his first 3 seasons as a starter is more impressive.


But somthing tells me all of those players at the year 5 mark will have Lamar lapped 3 times and left in the dust.

But we’ll see.

Lamar has so far scored at 2.35 per game, Mahomes at 2.61, Brady is 2.03

Mahomes has a better ratio but you have to take into account Mahomes' weapons and the fact Andy Reid uses the running backs a lot less

[BearyManilowe]

Lamar ranks 4th all time for most Touchdowns in first 3 seasons in the NFL with 87, only Dan Marino (98), Luck (98) and Peyton (88)


Lamar only started 37 of the 48 games in those seasons. Marino 41, Peyton and Luck both 48

Let's stay relevant to the top 5 QB tag though.

Manning had 85 passing TDs
Luck had 86 passing TDs
Marino had 98 passing TDs
Mahomes had 76 passing TDs
Baker had 75 passing TDs
Wilson had 72 passing TDs
Watson had 71 passing TDs
Jameis Winston had 69 passing TDs
Lamar has 68 passing TDs.

The numbers get less impressive when you look at him from a QB standpoint.

[LukeS1]

Let's stay relevant to the top 5 QB tag though.

Manning had 85 passing TDs
Luck had 86 passing TDs
Marino had 98 passing TDs
Mahomes had 76 passing TDs
Baker had 75 passing TDs
Wilson had 72 passing TDs
Watson had 71 passing TDs
Jameis Winston had 69 passing TDs
Lamar has 68 passing TDs.

The numbers get less impressive when you look at him from a QB standpoint.

Rushing TDs are worth 6 points

Passing TDs are worth 6 points



If anything I'd prefer to score more via rushing, as its less risky.

Peyton threw 58 picks in those seasons, Luck 43, Lamar only 19. Luck also fumbled more than Lamar

[Jaydawg08]

Rushing TDs are worth 6 points

Passing TDs are worth 6 points



If anything I'd prefer to score more via rushing, as its less risky.

Peyton threw 58 picks in those seasons, Luck 43, Lamar only 19. Luck also fumbled more than Lamar

This? WTF.... Do rushing TDs only count for 3 points now or is this some new fancy football that only retarded miscers watch

[BearyManilowe]

Whatever you say man. Last post in here for me, Lamar is a great athlete and he will continue to thrive in Roman's offense. But he's not anywhere near a top QB in the league when you look at his passing metrics. His strength is in his running, but hes a sub-par passer that they don't allow to throw more than 20 times per game on average.

It's kind of like how Michael Vick is never brought up when you talk about good Quarterbacks, despite [previously] holding all the rushing records. Their passing stats simply don't hold up when compared to the rest of the field.

You're obviously convinced that Lamar is the best thing since sliced bread so theres really no point in engaging further.

[Jaydawg08]

Whatever you say man. Last post in here for me, Lamar is a great athlete and he will continue to thrive in Roman's offense. But he's not anywhere near a top QB in the league when you look at his passing metrics. His strength is in his running, but hes a sub-par passer that they don't allow to throw more than 20 times per game on average.

It's kind of like how Michael Vick is never brought up when you talk about good Quarterbacks, despite [previously] holding all the rushing records. Their passing stats simply don't hold up when compared to the rest of the field.

You're obviously convinced that Lamar is the best thing since sliced bread so theres really no point in engaging further.

It's obvious that you are incapable of admitting that you were wrong with Lamar as far being a top level QB with the BEST running ability in NFL history at the QB position. Lamar is also doing this with BY FAR a bottom 3 WR group his entire career.

Just admit you don't know wtf you're talking about and move on please

[DynamicDot]

Lamar is in the bottom end of the top 10-12. He's not elite, but he's better than what people give him credit for.

QBs I think are better: Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, Wilson, Allen, Stafford, Watson, Ryan, Carr, Murray. I'd probably take Herbert too but I would understand if Herbert hasn't proven enough yet.

[Belome]

It's obvious that you are incapable of admitting that you were wrong with Lamar as far being a top level QB with the BEST running ability in NFL history at the QB position. Lamar is also doing this with BY FAR a bottom 3 WR group his entire career.

Just admit you don't know wtf you're talking about and move on please

He’s not wrong about Lamar.

He’s not a top 5 QB and has done nothing to
Show he is.

He’s a great rushing QB. That’s about it.

His wide receiver core is irrelevant imo.

He could have rice and Moss out there and he would still only throw 20 times for 140 yards in a playoff loss.

[LukeS1]

Lamar is in the bottom end of the top 10-12. He's not elite, but he's better than what people give him credit for.

QBs I think are better: Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, Wilson, Allen, Stafford, Watson, Ryan, Carr, Murray. I'd probably take Herbert too but I would understand if Herbert hasn't proven enough yet.

Lamar is literally a better version of Kyler Murray

I can understand a difference in opinion when you are evaluating pocket passers against Lamar, they are completely different overall

But are you really telling me Stafford would have taken this untalented Ravens offense to 1st in points in 2019, and 7th in 2020 while keeping turnovers to an absolute minimum? Can't see it

[LukeS1]

He’s not wrong about Lamar.

He’s not a top 5 QB and has done nothing to
Show he is.

He’s a great rushing QB. That’s about it.

His wide receiver core is irrelevant imo.

He could have rice and Moss out there and he would still only throw 20 times for 140 yards in a playoff loss.

This is complete nonsense. Look at what adding Nuk did for Murray

A legit number 1 receiver that meant teams couldn't sell out on the run would transform the Ravens offense