The myth of not being able to gain muscle and lose fat has been debunked many times. It's been shown that bulking only increases the rate of muscle gain, but is not a requirement. My question is, if you're already at a low bodyfat, is it damn near impossible to recomp provided that you're a beginner/intermediate?
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01-15-2021, 07:14 AM #1
Maingaining at 10-12% bodyfat impossible?
"The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization." -Sigmund Freud
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." -Leonardo da Vinci
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01-15-2021, 07:22 AM #2
There’s really no telling & it’s all individual. That being said, I’d wager that it’s going to be impossible to fo much of a “recomp” at 10% as a natural. You could add mass with minimal-to-no increase in body fat, but I don’t think you can recomp simply because you don’t have much to “recomp” at 10% or less. At 12% a recomp is probably within the cards still.
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01-15-2021, 07:32 AM #3
Is it true that you're really hungry all the time at that lean? As impressive as it is, that doesn't sound very desirable honestly, especially when ~15% is still relatively lean and looks quite good on most people. As a teenager I had some abs and decent separation (albeit with little overall mass), but I think my hunger at the time had more to do with being a growing teenager. I probably never got below 15% at my leanest but I've heard a lot of people say beneath about 12, you're hungry all the time.
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01-15-2021, 07:35 AM #4
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01-15-2021, 07:44 AM #5
But there's a difference between eating at maintenance at 10% and cutting down to 10%. If you've been cutting for 3 months and you're down at 10%, of course you're going to be hungry. I don't think that's the case if you're at 10% and eating at maintenance for a while though.
"The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization." -Sigmund Freud
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." -Leonardo da Vinci
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01-15-2021, 08:34 AM #6
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Not really.
Leptin is produced by fat cells...
If you’re maintaining, you’re not adding fat cells... so, you don’t have the leptin...
For most people, that is why maintaining 10% is so hard... you have to accept being hungry..
Of course it won’t feel as bad as cutting, but it’s kind of walking the tight rope.
Plus, if you’re 10% and eating in a 200 calories surplus, it’s like not your body comp is going to change noticeably over the short term... it would take you like 3 weeks to even gain a single pound of fat... you’d basically look identical and not have to suffer at all."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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01-15-2021, 08:45 AM #7
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01-15-2021, 08:48 AM #8
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01-15-2021, 08:56 AM #9
Had posted this link before in another thread, but seems to be addressing your question
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s8I...ePeriodization
If I recall correctly, Israetel here claims it's very hard to do so at 10% and *maybe* possible at 12%
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01-15-2021, 09:16 AM #10
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01-15-2021, 09:23 AM #11
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To be honest, I think all the current talk about 'gaintaining/maingaining' is really just overcomplicating things...
Greg Doucette has seriously muddied the waters with his obsession over it... it's kind of annoying to me.
Get to a BF you're happy with... then eat enough to feel good, NOT hungry, energized, and don't gain fat more quickly than you feel is acceptable... but, also don't get SO focused on the details that you freak out over a little water weight or (GASP!!) even some bodyfat...
It's not that big of a deal."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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01-15-2021, 09:25 AM #12
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01-15-2021, 09:27 AM #13
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01-15-2021, 09:31 AM #14
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01-15-2021, 09:32 AM #15
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01-15-2021, 09:45 AM #16
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01-15-2021, 09:49 AM #17
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01-15-2021, 10:02 AM #18
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It really does erk me...
I understand people not wanting to be like 25% bodyfat as a dude... but seriously... NOBODY here is going to accidentally become morbidly obese..
The level of mental gymnastics people try and do with predicting macros down to the fraction of a gram, obsessing over a TDEE of like 2,657.123098 calories....
Feeling the need to always compensate for every calorie they consume and try to match their Apple Watch... I just don't get it.
Nobody had this stuff decades ago, and people have been able to gain muscle and not get obese throughout those times.
As a general rule, people tend to KNOW if they're losing weight...
people tend to KNOW if they're over-eating...
and people tend to know if they're AROUND their TDEE... which is really all you need."When I die, I hope it's early in the morning so I don't have to go to work that day for no reason"
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01-15-2021, 10:34 AM #19
Even that hasn't been shown in a study.
My question is, if you're already at a low bodyfat, is it damn near impossible to recomp provided that you're a beginner/intermediate?
I would add: In the medium rep ranges, when lifting with sufficient volume.
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01-15-2021, 10:36 AM #20
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01-15-2021, 10:41 AM #21
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01-15-2021, 10:53 AM #22
If your nutrition is correct
If your training is correct
If your sleep habits are correct
If your genetics are correct
And if you don't mind mind numbing, painfully slow progress in either direction with subpar results in both directions
Besides those factors, yeah piece of cakeIf you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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01-15-2021, 11:16 AM #23
It can definitely work well. Anyone who claims differently isn't aware of the science on the topic. And the claim that it would lead to slower progress isn't backed up by science.
Here are some recomping examples in the literature, you can check the speed of the progress:
Obese beginners gained ~10 pounds of lean body mass while dropping ~16 pounds of fat in 14 weeks: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9309627
Lean beginners gained ~7 pounds of lean body mass while losing ~6 pounds of fat in 10 weeks: http://jap.physiology.org/content/85/2/695.full
Athletes gained ~2 pounds of lean body mass while dropping ~10 pounds of fat in ~8 weeks: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571
Experienced lifters gained ~3.3 pounds of fat free mass while losing ~3.5 pounds of fat in 8 weeks: http://www.jissn.com/content/12/1/39Last edited by Mrpb; 01-15-2021 at 11:30 AM.
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01-15-2021, 11:23 AM #24
Well ****, progress is naturally painfully slow even if bulking. I don't think being in a slight surplus compared to recomping over a year is THAT much better if you meet the right circumstances to recomp. You'd gain say 2 or so pounds of extra muscle in a slight surplus? So 12lbs in a surplus vs. 10lbs recomp. Visually you'd hardly tell the difference. Whose going to say no to 10lbs of muscle gain? Maybe if we compared gaining muscle in a deficit to bulking then yeah you'd have a bigggg difference there. Then you'd gain maybe a quarter of what you gained in a slight surplus. It doesn't take very long out of one's total lifespan to tap out their gains either. So if you get there 6-12 months slower than someone who went fully optimal, who cares? As long as you're natural, a few years is all it takes and then you're more or less -finito-.
Last edited by Animal2692; 01-15-2021 at 11:40 AM.
"The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization." -Sigmund Freud
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." -Leonardo da Vinci
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01-15-2021, 11:32 AM #25
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01-15-2021, 11:38 AM #26
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01-15-2021, 11:57 AM #27
If you meet the right circumstances as you say.. that’s a big IF and recomp isn’t just this thing that everyone is successful at however a decent deficit will always cause fairly rapid fatloss and a slight surplus will give you a better chance of gaining muscle quicker rather than eating at maintenance or being in a slight deficit and chasing a recomp.
If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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01-15-2021, 12:59 PM #28
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01-16-2021, 03:11 AM #29
Absolutely, and I've personally observed this more than a few times after a period of not training and not watching the diet. A slight deficit (~200) and a proper training program, and the gain actually outpaces the fat loss, leading to a very noticeable change in composition with a very slow weight loss over the first 6-8 weeks. After that some more tweaking is needed to continue leaning out, but maintaining it is very easy.
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01-16-2021, 05:44 AM #30
Be aware that losing some fat will uncover existing muscle giving the appearance of more muscle. In a large percentage of people that think they’re recomping they’re just uncovering what is already there. By maintaining muscle and losing fat you are changing body composition for the better.
And then you have people in that situation that have laid off of training for a bit and start again and lifts start going up and thinking it’s adding muscle when it’s actually CNS adaption.If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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