*** Official Tennis Thread Pt. 2****

[Dominik]

Disappointing to lose but he's got to be happy with that. Should draw a lot of confidence even in defeat given Djokovic has been going in dry on everyone for the last 3 months.

Record is garbage in Paris yet pushed Novak on a 21 match streak to 3 hours and a 3rd set tiebreak. Saved all 12 break points. Served well. Converts that set point in the first and maybe he wins this in 2 today.

Hopefully Khachanov can make it competitive tomorrow. Would like to see him win his first Masters and I'd be saying that even if Federer won today.

[Trudope]

Khachanov will def make it competitive unless nerves get the best of him. He's in great form and just mugged Zverev and Thiem.

[ohiostate124]

Damn. He played better than I thought he would going into the match. He had a chance to win it in straights. Honestly, I thought the match was over after he lost the first set.

[euron]

Strong contender for match of the season. Old man Fed still has some tricks up his sleeve when he is relaxed and playing as the underdog. Could've easily sneaked the win if he played the tiebreakers better. 1 DF and 2 UF in the deciding tiebreaker thats not it mane tho.


Match of the year contenders:
-Nadal vs Djokovic Wimbledon SF
-Federer vs Djokovic Paris SF
-Nadal vs Thiem US Open
-Nadal vs Del Potro Wimbledon
-Federer vs Anderson Wimbledon
-Murray vs Copil Washington
-Cilic vs de Minaur US Open


Honorable mentions:
-Djokovic vs Chung Aus Open
-Djokovic vs Cilic Queen's
-Anderson vs Isner Wimbledon
-Tsitsipas vs Zverev Toronto
-Tomic vs Fognini Chengdu

Djokovic' early losses mostly because of how his year turned around. Queen's was such a good standard, his game was there except he choked it away, then he brought the fire at Wimbledon. Tomic mostly because watching Tomic roll through a 250 tournament and saving 7 match points was entertaining AF.

[ohiostate124]

well it was a great match. disappointing final set tiebreaker. federer plays like that and he'll continue to have his chances on faster courts.

khachanov will beat him tomorrow. heard it hear first.

You’re a wizard Harry

[Dominik]

Really happy for him. No bullsh!t with this guy.

[Trudope]

You’re a wizard Harry

Khachanov was in great form the last few matches and Djokovic looked beatable vs Cilic and Federer. Still great to see one of the Nexgen pull this off. He's gotten so much better this past year, hopefully he can continue it.

[ohiostate124]

I hope he has more success than Zverev

[Dominik]

I hope he has more success than Zverev

Co-signed. Their attitudes are like night and day. No sense of entitlement with Karen. He works hard and conducts himself like a professional. He actually got married a couple of years ago.

Khachanov was in great form the last few matches and Djokovic looked beatable vs Cilic and Federer. Still great to see one of the Nexgen pull this off. He's gotten so much better this past year, hopefully he can continue it.

No question that 3 hour match 24 hours earlier softened him up. I felt he was due for a loss and thought Federer could do it. In the end it probably came down to that set point. I don't think he would have beaten Khachanov in this kind of form though. Like Nadal he's vulnerable against big hitters in these conditions.

Anyway the breakthrough for Khachanov was that Nadal US Open match and then winning at home in Moscow. He put it all together this week.

[iabs]

I am 100% positive that if Djokovic would've had Rafa's draw at the USO he wouldn't have made the final.

[Dominik]

I am 100% positive that if Djokovic would've had Rafa's draw at the USO he wouldn't have made the final.

Based on what? He would have beaten Khachanov and Thiem comfortably just as he beat Del Potro in the final. And with Rafa's draw he would have got Nishikori/Millman in the final.

He's beaten everyone over the last 4 months and won something like 32 out of 33 matches until today. Nadal would have been beaten mercilessly by Djokovic at the US Open, Shanghai, and Paris which is why he's not interested in playing because Nadal only enters tournaments he can a) win or b) get ranking points from to end the year #1. He knew he would probably lose to Djokovic or Federer indoors.

Saying Novak's been lucky sounds salty as fuk. Federer pushed him to the limit in the semis for 3 hours which softened him up for Khachanov who nearly lost to Isner in the Paris QF. Not exactly a revelation because Federer beat him at Shanghai in 2014 and ATP Finals in 2015. He's still a tough matchup for Novak (and Nadal for that matter) in faster conditions.

And let's face it if Nadal didn't pull a Murray and screw up the draw that great match would have been a final like it deserved to be.

[ohiostate124]

I am 100% positive that if Djokovic would've had Rafa's draw at the USO he wouldn't have made the final.

[iabs]

Based on what? He would have beaten Khachanov and Thiem comfortably just as he beat Del Potro in the final. And with Rafa's draw he would have got Nishikori/Millman in the final.

He's beaten everyone over the last 4 months and won something like 32 out of 33 matches until today. Nadal would have been beaten mercilessly by Djokovic at the US Open, Shanghai, and Paris which is why he's not interested in playing because Nadal only enters tournaments he can a) win or b) get ranking points from to end the year #1. He knew he would probably lose to Djokovic or Federer indoors.

Saying Novak's been lucky sounds salty as fuk. Federer pushed him to the limit in the semis for 3 hours which softened him up for Khachanov who nearly lost to Isner in the Paris QF. Not exactly a revelation because Federer beat him at Shanghai in 2014 and ATP Finals in 2015. He's still a tough matchup for Novak (and Nadal for that matter) in faster conditions.

And let's face it if Nadal didn't pull a Murray and screw up the draw that great match would have been a final like it deserved to be.

Let's compare Nadal's declining 2014 year and worse career year 2015 to formulate how well a Nadal that has a better win/loss ratio than Djokovic and Federer this year will do in Paris.

Let's imagine that Nadal was not dealing with a knee injury and randomly state that "Djokovic would've beaten Nadal merciless".

Nadal can win ANY tournament he enters, just like Djokovic and Federer. He enters the tournaments his body allows him to compete at near 100%.

Now this is where you pull conspiracy theories out of your ass.

[Dominik]

Let's compare Nadal's declining 2014 year and worse career year 2015 to formulate how well a Nadal that has a better win/loss ratio than Djokovic and Federer this year will do in Paris.

Let's imagine that Nadal was not dealing with a knee injury and randomly state that "Djokovic would've beaten Nadal merciless".

Nadal can win ANY tournament he enters, just like Djokovic and Federer. He enters the tournaments his body allows him to compete at near 100%.

Now this is where you pull conspiracy theories out of your ass.

"Nadal can win ANY tournament he enters" That's contingent upon the draw and the participation and form of other two.

Nadal has a very poor record indoors. Of course feel free to list all his indoor titles and wins over Djokovic and Federer after the US Open if you disagree with this statement.

"He enters the tournaments his body allows him to compete at near 100%." More like he enters tournaments he believes he can win or vulture enough points to lock up YE#1 like he trolled Federer this time last year.

"Now this is where you pull conspiracy theories out of your ass."

Paris withdrew — Got the requisite number of points to finish #1 and bailed the next round
ATP Finals withdrew — See above



Brisbane withdrew — Unlikely he was fully fit after 2 months of rust
Aus Open retired — Let's assume this injury was real albeit exaggerated
Acapulco withdrew — Stacked draw
Indian Wells withdrew — Federer was having his best start to a season since 2006, was back at #1, and didn't want a repeat of last year



Miami withdrew — Had already made this decision as above
Queen's withdrew — Needed to rest after a massive clay season
Cincinnati withdrew — Had no interest in facing Djokovic and Federer
US Open retired — Would have needed 5 sets to put away Delpo and then turn up gassed for the final
Beijing withdrew — Djokovic has never lost here
Shanghai withdrew — Djokovic and Federer on a fast court where they've won 6x and he's won zero
Paris withdrew — Djokovic or Federer on a fast court no?

[iabs]

"Nadal can win ANY tournament he enters" That's contingent upon the draw and the participation and form of other two.

Nadal has a very poor record indoors. Of course feel free to list all his indoor titles and wins over Djokovic and Federer after the US Open if you disagree with this statement.

"He enters the tournaments his body allows him to compete at near 100%." More like he enters tournaments he believes he can win or vulture enough points to lock up YE#1 like he trolled Federer this time last year.

"Now this is where you pull conspiracy theories out of your ass."

Paris withdrew — Got the requisite number of points to finish #1 and bailed the next round
ATP Finals withdrew — See above

[img]https://i.imgur.com/H24hHwq.jpg?1[/im

Brisbane withdrew — Unlikely he was fully fit after 2 months of rust
Aus Open retired — Let's assume this injury was real albeit exaggerated
Acapulco withdrew — Stacked draw
Indian Wells withdrew — Federer was having his best start to a season since 2006, was back at #1, and didn't want a repeat of last year

[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/5h9jprjincWlKwd2od/giphy.gif[/img

Miami withdrew — Had already made this decision as above
Queen's withdrew — Needed to rest after a massive clay season
Cincinnati withdrew — Had no interest in facing Djokovic and Federer
US Open retired — Would have needed 5 sets to put away Delpo and then turn up gassed for the final
Beijing withdrew — Djokovic has never lost here
Shanghai withdrew — Djokovic and Federer on a fast court where they've won 6x and he's won zero
Paris withdrew — Djokovic or Federer on a fast court no?

[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/piZ3fPeZkrHwMcEuvI/giphy.gif[/im

All that is cool and all.....but it kinda belongs here.

[Dominik]

All that is cool and all.....but it kinda belongs here.

I do understand why you're salty. Nadal would have locked up #1 while playing only 4 non-clay tournaments... if it wasn't for Djokovic.

[Dominik]

Nadal has a very poor record indoors. Of course feel free to list all his indoor titles and wins over Djokovic and Federer after the US Open if you disagree with this statement.

Wins over Djokovic after the US Open since 2011: 0
Wins over Federer after the US Open: 1 (2013)
Shanghai titles: 0
Paris indoor titles: 0
ATP Finals titles: 0

Cliffs: his chances of beating them after September are slim to none.

[tightteeshirt]

Brisbane withdrew — Unlikely he was fully fit after 2 months of rust
Aus Open retired — Let's assume this injury was real albeit exaggerated
Acapulco withdrew — Stacked draw
Indian Wells withdrew — Federer was having his best start to a season since 2006, was back at #1, and didn't want a repeat of last year



Miami withdrew — Had already made this decision as above
Queen's withdrew — Needed to rest after a massive clay season
Cincinnati withdrew — Had no interest in facing Djokovic and Federer
US Open retired — Would have needed 5 sets to put away Delpo and then turn up gassed for the final
Beijing withdrew — Djokovic has never lost here
Shanghai withdrew — Djokovic and Federer on a fast court where they've won 6x and he's won zero
Paris withdrew — Djokovic or Federer on a fast court no?

wew lad

[ohiostate124]

Looks like Rafa is officially ending his season to have surgery on his ankle.

[Trudope]

Ouch, looks like that TMF may never come... but he is just faking his injuries right Dom?

Hopefully Zverev also pulls out so we don't have to see his whiny mug and Khachanov can take his place.

[Dominik]

Ouch, looks like that TMF may never come... but he is just faking his injuries right Dom?

No he's having a procedure to clean up his ankle for 2019. It's not like the guy can't walk.

Loose bodies: Cartilage, bone and scar tissue can become free floating in the joint and form what is referred to as loose bodies. Loose bodies can be painful and can cause problems such as clicking and catching. Locking of the ankle joint may occur. Ankle arthroscopy can be used to find and remove the loose bodies.

However let's not pretend the timing of this operation won't conveniently extricate him from the Saudi exo affair without upsetting them. It was becoming a PR nightmare.

Anyway I'm glad he's doing this now instead of pulling a Murray and stinking up the draw. His priority will be starting the year strong since he'll be defending nothing for 4 months and of course then being 100% for the clay season where he's defending 5500 points. If all that goes well then there's no reason he can't be in contention for #1 after Wimbledon when it's Djokovic's turn to defend a lot of points.

[Trudope]

However let's not pretend the timing of this operation won't conveniently extricate him from the Saudi exo affair without upsetting them. It was becoming a PR nightmare.

That mean's Djokovic won't have to play either right? He should be pretty happy about that as well.

[Dominik]

That mean's Djokovic won't have to play either right? He should be pretty happy about that as well.

Definitely. He'd also be happy about not having to fight to the finish for No. 1. Committing to play Laver Cup over Beijing made the race much tighter even if Nadal was only going to play the ATP Finals.

There was always the possibility depending on how the groups played out that Nadal and Djokovic could have faced in the semis and even if historically Nadal hasn't done well would anyone write him off in a situation where it came down to that one match to decide No. 1? I wouldn't. Novak can stop clenching his ass cheeks now. All the pressure is off.

[ohiostate124]

[euron]

Anyone giving a fuk about the Nextgen Finals?

I dislike the fast 4 scoring format but don't hate the overall idea. Rublev, De Minaur and Tsitsipas looking like the favorites. The italian wc is toast, Munar is a clay grinder, Hurkcaz is dope but not quite at the level of the other guys and Tiafoe and Fritz are more inconsistent although dark horses.

IMO the fast 4 scoring is dumb. I wish NextGen and Normal WTF were best of 5, just like normal. You're a young dude coming up and then you come to a overhyped fancy tournament and you play short sets, but when you have to play with the big boys you suddenly need to play and concentrate for hours in slams. Just seems counterproductive. If I was a young tennis talent I'd do everything I could to prep for slams. Not to mention Nextgen finals doesnt even award ranking points, so I don't blame Shapo at all for pulling out.

It's just an exhibition for bacon and beans, if they're going to hype it this much, they should make it worthwhile.

[Trudope]

It just shows how bad the "Nextgen" is that they need a separate finals.

[euron]

Not rly, Zverev has a very wide margin over the world no. 6-8, he's comfortably at the top together with our favorite threesome and Delpo.

Khachanov and Coric are right under Isner almost into the top 10, with Tsitsipas and Medvedev in the top20 as well.


The progress from last year is visible.



Year End Ranking 2017 - Current ranking 2018

Zverev 4 > 5 (however, he has 400 more pts than last year already, and can earn even more at the WTF)
Khachanov 45 > 11
Coric 48 > 12
Shapovalov 51 > 27
Tsitsipas 91 > 15
Chung 58 > 25
Medvedev 65 > 16
De Minaur 208 > 31
Tiafoe 79 > 40
Fritz 104 > 47

The amount of u25 players in the top20 went from 3 to 5, which isn't huge. But the amount of u25 players in the top 100 went from 19 to 27.



Nuances:
-They aren't winning slams or challenging the big lads consistently yet.
-Gaining ranks from 100 > 20 goes a lot faster than going from the top 20 to the top 10 to the top 5.

[Dominik]

It just shows how bad the "Nextgen" is that they need a separate finals.

Agreed. Since they can't run with the big dogs the ATP decided to reward mediocrity by giving them their very own event complete with fruity rule changes catering to millennials with the attention span of a goldfish.

The appeal of the ATP Finals which was called the Masters Grand Prix in the 70s and 80s, the ATP Tour World Championship in the 90s, the Tennis Masters Cup in the 2000s, then ATP World Tour Finals and ATP Finals, is that younger players who qualified could upset the big names.

No need for special #nextgen prizes back in the day because younger players were determined enough to qualify and win the thing.

1977 21 year old Borg reached the final.
1978 18 year old McEnroe won.
1979 23 year old Borg won.
1981 21 year old Lendl won the first of his 5 titles.
1986 19 year old Becker reached the final losing to Lendl.
1988 21 year old Becker beat 28 year old Lendl.
1989 23 year old Edberg beat 22 year old Becker in the final.
1990 20 year old Agassi won.
1991 20 year old Sampras beat 21 year old Courier in the final.
In 2000 #1 seed was 20 year old Safin and 6th seed was a 19 year old Hewitt. 24 year old Kuerten beat a 30 year old Agassi to win it.
2001-2002 Hewitt won it back to back aged 20 and 21 beating a 23 year old Grosjean and 22 year old JC Ferrero respectively.
2007 20 year old Djokovic, 21 year old Nadal, 21 year old Gasquet all competed.
2008 Djokovic won it at 21. 20 year old JDMP, 21 year old Murray and 23 year old Tsonga all competed.
2009 21 year old Del Potro reached the final.
2010 23 year old Nadal reached the final.

[euron]

I think the thing you're missing here is not just the "nextgen" is incapable of winning slams. If you want to go back to the last non big four slam winner it's Wawrinka in fukking 2016, and before that again Wawrinka in 2015.

Everyone is too incompetent to win slams against Rafa, Roger and Novak. That's not an excuse but if we're going to chit on young players for it we should chit on the entire tour too.

[Trudope]

I think the thing you're missing here is not just the "nextgen" is incapable of winning slams. If you want to go back to the last non big four slam winner it's Wawrinka in fukking 2016, and before that again Wawrinka in 2015.

Everyone is too incompetent to win slams against Rafa, Roger and Novak. That's not an excuse but if we're going to chit on young players for it we should chit on the entire tour too.

Well I would consider Wawrinka part of the big 4 generation. It's pretty common for a few guys to dominate their entire generation but after a few years, young guys usually come along.

Federer was dominating then Nadal came, then Djokovic, then Murray. Since Murray broke through in 2008, we have not seen a young player capable of winning a GS besides Del Potro (who gets injured too much). That's more than 10 years and we haven't seen a young player win a GS.

Right now we have 3, 30+ guys that nobody can't beat, one of them 37 lol. When is the last time that has happened? Never.