christians; why are you christian? (serious)

[GoJu]

Can you source any of this (srs)? 12 disciples is undoubtedly symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel, therefore it is reasonable to conclude that it is has Jewish origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Read the part about Osiris' institution as god of the dead, similarities and parallels with Jesus are very uncanny.

[drpurple]

Can you source any of this (srs)? 12 disciples is undoubtedly symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel, therefore it is reasonable to conclude that it is has Jewish origins.

stop concentrating on the number 12. if someone has 12 followers, then the total group is 13. thats relevant in many cultures. for example, 13 is the number of witches in a coven.

numeric significance is what you make of it.

[ONtop888]

stop concentrating on the number 12. if someone has 12 followers, then the total group is 13. thats relevant in many cultures. for example, 13 is the number of witches in a coven.

numeric significance is what you make of it.

No, you need to start concentrating on the number '12' because it has obvious roots in the Jewish culture that informed Jesus' worldview. It is a pretty well established belief in the scholarly world, including the renowned atheist, biblical scholar Bart Ehrman.

[ONtop888]

Serious question, if it isn't literally telling you to gouge your eye out if it causes you sin, and its really saying to just get rid of the sin, then how does that make sense as hyperbole? If its not meant to mean to throw the item that is part of the sin away, but rather the sin itself, then its written very poorly.

Actually, it is not written poorly at all. It is a pretty standard instance of hyperbole. Let's make sure that we agree on what hyperbole is:

1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole


That is exactly what Jesus is doing here. He's exaggerating how harsh one should deal with something that causes them to sin in order to highlight the gravity of the sin.

What's your counter argument? You honestly think that this is meant to be taken literally?

[ONtop888]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Read the part about Osiris' institution as god of the dead, similarities and parallels with Jesus are very uncanny.

There is a similarity between the grain symbolizing/containing the presence of Osiris, and the Eucharist symbolizing/containing/signifying the presence of Jesus. However, I don't see any of your claims accounted for. For example: Where's the three wise men with those gifts? Where's the resurrection in three days? Where's the virgin birth? Where's the 12 disciples?

[bird72]

Born of a virgin December 25, gifts of gold, frankensense, and mire from 3 wise men. Osiris was also born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, was killed and resurrected 3 days later for the sins of the world. Stories are VERY similar.

Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock.

Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified.

Our knowledge regarding Mithraism is very imperfect; some 600 brief inscriptions, mostly dedicatory, some 300 often fragmentary, exiguous, almost identical monuments, a few casual references in the Fathers or Acts of the Martyrs, and a brief polemic against Mithraism which the Armenian Eznig about 450 probably copied from Theodore of Mopsuestia (d. 428) who lived when Mithraism was almost a thing of the past — these are our only sources, unless we include the Avesta in which Mithra is indeed mentioned, but which cannot be an authority for Roman Mithraism with which Christianity is compared.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

The Egyptian version, is better you don't mention it, that was all an invention.

[GoJu]

There is a similarity between the grain symbolizing/containing the presence of Osiris, and the Eucharist symbolizing/containing/signifying the presence of Jesus. However, I don't see any of your claims accounted for. For example: Where's the three wise men with those gifts? Where's the resurrection in three days? Where's the virgin birth? Where's the 12 disciples?

Egyptologist E. A. Wallis Budge suggests possible connections or parallels in Osiris' resurrection story with those found in Christianity:

The Egyptians of every period in which they are known to us believed that Osiris was of divine origin, that he suffered death and mutilation at the hands of the powers of evil, that after a great struggle with these powers he rose again, that he became henceforth the king of the underworld and judge of the dead, and that because he had conquered death the righteous also might conquer death...In Osiris the Christian Egyptians found the prototype of Christ, and in the pictures and statues of Isis suckling her son Horus, they perceived the prototypes of the Virgin Mary and her child.[24]



Biblical scholar Bruce M. Metzger notes that in one account of the Osirian cycle he dies on the 17th of the month of Athyr (approximating to a month between October 28 and November 26 in modern calendars), is revivified on the 19th and compares this to Christ rising on the "third day" but he thinks "resurrection" is a questionable description.[25]

I have to look up the others, as they're from Mithraism apparently.

[ONtop888]

Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock.

Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified.

Our knowledge regarding Mithraism is very imperfect; some 600 brief inscriptions, mostly dedicatory, some 300 often fragmentary, exiguous, almost identical monuments, a few casual references in the Fathers or Acts of the Martyrs, and a brief polemic against Mithraism which the Armenian Eznig about 450 probably copied from Theodore of Mopsuestia (d. 428) who lived when Mithraism was almost a thing of the past — these are our only sources, unless we include the Avesta in which Mithra is indeed mentioned, but which cannot be an authority for Roman Mithraism with which Christianity is compared.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

The Egyptian version, is better you don't mention it, that was all an invention.

Newadvent, eh? You like dat dere Catholic website huh bro .

[ONtop888]

Egyptologist E. A. Wallis Budge suggests possible connections or parallels in Osiris' resurrection story with those found in Christianity:

The Egyptians of every period in which they are known to us believed that Osiris was of divine origin, that he suffered death and mutilation at the hands of the powers of evil, that after a great struggle with these powers he rose again, that he became henceforth the king of the underworld and judge of the dead, and that because he had conquered death the righteous also might conquer death...In Osiris the Christian Egyptians found the prototype of Christ, and in the pictures and statues of Isis suckling her son Horus, they perceived the prototypes of the Virgin Mary and her child.[24]



Biblical scholar Bruce M. Metzger notes that in one account of the Osirian cycle he dies on the 17th of the month of Athyr (approximating to a month between October 28 and November 26 in modern calendars), is revivified on the 19th and compares this to Christ rising on the "third day" but he thinks "resurrection" is a questionable description.[25]

I have to look up the others, as they're from Mithraism apparently.

Osiris was murdered and his body was then dismembered and scattered. Later, his body pieces were recovered and rejoined, and he was rejuvenated. Osiris then journeyed to the underworld, where he became the lord of the dead. He did NOT resurrect with a glorified body and walk with men on earth, as did Jesus. He was not alive again, as was Jesus, but was instead a “dead” god who never returned among the living

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/inde...he_Osiris_Myth

[JAGERBOY]

Actually, it is not written poorly at all. It is a pretty standard instance of hyperbole. Let's make sure that we agree on what hyperbole is:

1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole


That is exactly what Jesus is doing here. He's exaggerating how harsh one should deal with something that causes them to sin in order to highlight the gravity of the sin.

What's your counter argument? You honestly think that this is meant to be taken literally?

No, my argument is that its written incorrectly. In the example of, "to wait an eternity", that is an exagerration of waiting a long time. In the example of "gouging ones eyes out", what is that an exagerration of? Not looking out of that eyeball anymore? Wearing a patch over that eye?

[ONtop888]

There is very little information about Mithraism before it was in Rome during the time of early Christianity. It is very likely that the Christianity's huge surge of popularity in the Roman Empire led to the Mithra's adoption of some the sacraments/teachings.

[bird72]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Read the part about Osiris' institution as god of the dead, similarities and parallels with Jesus are very uncanny.

Zeitgeist's Bogus Sources

The "sources" used for Zeitgeist are outdated, unreliable, non-academic, non-scholarly, speculative, and/or conspiracy-laden tomes written by folks who are not trained in biblical scholarship, historical Jesus studies, Egyptology, or related fields, and/or rely on other non-scholarly, outdated, pseudo-historical books, and are therefore filled with errors:

Acharya S, Suns of God and The Christ Conspiracy;
Gerald Massey, The Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ (orig c. 1900) and Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World (orig 1907)
Thomas Doane, Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions (orig 1882)
James Frazer, The Golden Bough (1st ed 1890; 2nd ed 1900; 3rd ed in 12 volumes, 1906-1915)
Freke and Gandy, The Jesus Mysteries


http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/HORUS.htm#ZEITGEIST

[ONtop888]

No, my argument is that its written incorrectly. In the example of, "to wait an eternity", that is an exagerration of waiting a long time. In the example of "gouging ones eyes out", what is that an exagerration of? Not looking out of that eyeball anymore? Wearing a patch over that eye?

It's an exaggeration of the action, gouging your eyes out, to emphasize the severity of the sin.

[bird72]

Newadvent, eh? You like dat dere Catholic website huh bro .

I love it, I also love the Jerusalem bible version..................

[JAGERBOY]

It's an exaggeration of the action, gouging your eyes out, to emphasize the severity of the sin.

I. Know. That.

But of WHAT action is the question? I even gave you an example of what I meant. Are you being purposely obtuse?

[ONtop888]

I love it, I also love the Jerusalem bible version..................

[ONtop888]

I. Know. That.

Clearly you don't know that.

But of WHAT action is the question? I even gave you an example of what I meant. Are you being purposely obtuse?

I think that you are the dense one, or just misinformed. The action itself is an exaggeration, it doesn't have to be an exaggeration of some other specific action. For whatever reason you think this (it is wrong), maybe you could provide a source that explicitly states that because I already provided you with a definition of hyperbole.....

[bird72]

Egyptologist E. A. Wallis Budge suggests possible connections or parallels in Osiris' resurrection story with those found in Christianity:

The Egyptians of every period in which they are known to us believed that Osiris was of divine origin, that he suffered death and mutilation at the hands of the powers of evil, that after a great struggle with these powers he rose again, that he became henceforth the king of the underworld and judge of the dead, and that because he had conquered death the righteous also might conquer death...In Osiris the Christian Egyptians found the prototype of Christ, and in the pictures and statues of Isis suckling her son Horus, they perceived the prototypes of the Virgin Mary and her child.[24]



Biblical scholar Bruce M. Metzger notes that in one account of the Osirian cycle he dies on the 17th of the month of Athyr (approximating to a month between October 28 and November 26 in modern calendars), is revivified on the 19th and compares this to Christ rising on the "third day" but he thinks "resurrection" is a questionable description.[25]

I have to look up the others, as they're from Mithraism apparently.

Virgin Born?---------------------no
A Savior?-----------------------no
Performed miracles?-------------no
Communal Meal of Bread/Wine?--no
Crucified?----------------------no
Resurrection--------------------no

[bird72]

I. Know. That.

But of WHAT action is the question? I even gave you an example of what I meant. Are you being purposely obtuse?

Quite simply, the phrase removed the eye means that if you know that a situation may be tempted in your life to be an adulterer, avoid it, you have to sacrifice and avoid that situation.

[JAGERBOY]

Clearly you don't know that.



I think that you are the dense one, or just misinformed. The action itself is an exaggeration, it doesn't have to be an exaggeration of some other specific action. For whatever reason you think this (it is wrong), maybe you could provide a source that explicitly states that because I already provided you with a definition of hyperbole.....

I did not say that. In THIS specific example though, the Bible is referring to a specific body part, and then goes on to use that same body part in its exagerration. So for this "hyperbole", it should stay in line with the exaggeration of a specific action. I just don't like the way they are using it. It seems too open to be misconstrued as being literal in my opinion. Especially since it was written in a barbaric time when people were LITERALLY sacrificing animals and humans. So, for someone thats always harping about context, in the context of those times, it would appear to me that it SHOULD be taken literal.

[Tamandua]

"gouge your eyes out! brb healing the blind so that they can fall under temptation and have to gouge them out too"

*coolface*

[ONtop888]

I did not say that. In THIS specific example though, the Bible is referring to a specific body part, and then goes on to use that same body part in its exagerration. So for this "hyperbole", it should stay in line with the exaggeration of a specific action. I just don't like the way they are using it. It seems too open to be misconstrued as being literal in my opinion. Especially since it was written in a barbaric time when people were LITERALLY sacrificing animals and humans. So, for someone thats always harping about context, in the context of those times, it would appear to me that it SHOULD be taken literal.

I disagree. The action is gouging out one's eye, which emphasizes the sin of lust...the eye is connected with what you see. It's a textbook case of hyperbole. That doesn't mean that it can't be literal like you think it is, only that it also works perfectly fine as a hyperbole.

Precisely. Let's talk about the context. In the context of the Jesus tradition as conveyed through the Gospels, it would make more sense to interpret this as a hyperbolic statement. We know that every human has what Jesus would consider to be "impure" thoughts, so why are there no examples of this self-mutilation in the Gospels?

[Tamandua]

so why are there no examples of this self-mutilation in the Gospels?

In b4 fasting is self-mutilation.

[JAGERBOY]

Precisely. Let's talk about the context. In the context of the Jesus tradition as conveyed through the Gospels, it would make more sense to interpret this as a hyperbolic statement. We know that every human has what Jesus would consider to be "impure" thoughts, so why are there no examples of this self-mutilation in the Gospels?

Isn't that from the Gospels, Matthew? Or are you saying any OTHER examples?

[irondork]

No sir, Jesus effectively made thoughts into crimes and sins, and people are punished for their sins are they not?

You are desperately trying to find something to justify your anger. You won't find it in Christ's teachings... and I think that makes you angrier.

[GoingPlaces]

Has this argument over whether or not Jesus was using hyperbole when speaking about the gravity of sin REALLY still going on? Are you kidding me? And the Osiris connection...that joke of an argument got debunked a while ago, its a fabricated lie as Bird pointed out a few posts ago.

[PremierGirl]

Born of a virgin December 25, gifts of gold, frankensense, and mire from 3 wise men. Osiris was also born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, was killed and resurrected 3 days later for the sins of the world. Stories are VERY similar.

lol at december 25. Thats why christmas really is a pagan holiday . Bible verse that says Jesus was born in December 25....?

(even tho doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion, but I hate when unbiblical things are used as absolute truths)

To put it in other words as for interpretation of this verse...

We can agree that having to gouge out one's own eye will be a horrifying experience, let alone the horror of being blind thereafter.
What Jesus is saying here is that even that does not compare to the horror of "being thrown into the fire of hell. "
Obvious hyperbole/exaggeration to show severity.



And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

[irondork]

I disagree. The action is gouging out one's eye, which emphasizes the sin of lust...the eye is connected with what you see. It's a textbook case of hyperbole.

Let it go, ONtop. They will never get it.

1 Cor. 2:14 - "But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually."

[GermanBB]

Oh this thread again... for my answer just go to the last time you made this thread.

[boydwgrossii]

serious answers requested.
tell us why!

I like:

Ephesians 2:1–10

By Grace Through Faith

[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—[6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

I would be willing to discuss this more on Skype or phone. I think you can PM me. Not sure how to check them, but will learn soon.