In my opinion, at the end of the day, unless you are competing and below setpoint, it isn't something you are going to notice at all unless you have insulin resistance issues. Even then, I don't believe it will hinder total progress either. If you are a person that is more IR, you will probably notice your energy levels are all over the place, and this becomes more noticeable the leaner you get. Other than that, especially when not cutting, it's not a big concern at all.
Yes, the most significant factor is definitely being lean enough, however, there were several bodybuilders at both my shows that were lean enough (with glutes) that still didn't have the hard/grainy look. There was a reason for that (since I know how some of these people did their peak week)...
Basically I'm just interested in learning about some of the "little things" that are not well known on this board that you've clearly gotten a firm grasp on during your prep...any information you're willing to divulge I'm really anxious to hear!
Sorry for the wall of text and thanks Tommy![/QUOTE]
I will definitely touch on these at some point! I'm actually in the process of getting it all into writing in a book/pamphlet format...
Classic, huh? More to come!!!
Why is that? Someone asked me my opinion, and based on what I have seen over the last few years in both myself and countless clients, I gave my honest thoughts. In fact, I've been pretty clear that I don't even think GI of a source should necessarily be considered unless someone is competing and below setpoint - and even then it's not a matter of whether you will hinder progress, but rather how efficient your progress will be from then on. I really don't see how this is an undebateable topic either. If GI is insignificant on all levels, then why is it that IR people feel and perform much better on low/zero carb diets where insulin is hardly present? And when you take those same people and have them eat meals that spike insulin levels, they feel like crap and/or want to immediately take a nap? Because obviously there is something going on there with repsect to insulin and food choice...
In addition, all I can do is give my opinion based on what I have seen several times over and over when experimenting on myself and clients. It was only then that I could actually see noticeable differences..
And if my advice is so unfortunate, you may want to re-think reading my journal beyond this point. All I am tyring to do is help those who are seeking help and asking how I personally do things and what I personally believe on certain topics...
Even if he is, there are better ways to discuss a difference of opinion instead of making comments the way he did - THAT was unfortunate...
Congrats! It throws a whole new set of challenges into the mix, but it is still the best thing in the world!
And I don't disagree with that EXCEPT at a certain level of leanness when even the tiniest things start to count in the overall efficiency of things...
Ha! No kidding!
It certainly is...that's just one ofmany reasons I plan on taking another solid 2.5 years off...I'm going to need to prepare myself for a prep that includes little ones
Coming soon!
I am in 100% agreement. So much so that I have chosen to eat the same way in the offseason to get the most bang for my buck nutrition-wise from my food selection. If it allows me to gain even the slightest ground on my competitors the next time I compete, it will be worth it!
Let me ask you this...when someone is trying to go from lean to extraordinarily lean (all below setpoint), then would you say that even that "meaningful degree" could possibly matter at that point?
Sporto
|
-
12-04-2010, 03:38 PM #61
- Join Date: Oct 2003
- Location: Indianapolis, Indiana, United States
- Age: 43
- Posts: 5,013
- Rep Power: 5633
Core Nutritionals Sponsored Athlete
IFPA Professional Natural Bodybuilder
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
-
12-04-2010, 03:41 PM #62
-
12-04-2010, 03:45 PM #63
- Join Date: Dec 2007
- Location: United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 2,853
- Rep Power: 1057
"you can always think of many reasons not to do anything. But how many people are willing to search for a reason [a good one] to do something" " in life there are good choices and bad choices and in between there are doors"
youtube channel: www.youtube.com/user/ANTISTEROIDSX2
exist to inspire!
greatness is upon you ACT LIKE IT!
-
12-04-2010, 05:04 PM #64
Wise move. Very wise. Prior to my son being born I was a recreational bodybuilder and would hit the gym pretty regularly.....2-4 times per week. After he was born, i think I might have hit the gym maybe 2-4 times a YEAR for first few years of his life. And I think I put on a good, solid 40 lbs of fat......so just dont wander off the path like I did. By the time my daughter was born I started to learn the balance .....but its still a struggle.
"Who the Son sets free is free indeed....."
WNBF Pro Natural Bodybuilder
Check out my CELLUCOR Supplement log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148746693&pagenumber=
3DMJ Athlete
-
-
12-05-2010, 11:18 AM #65
Can you explain from a physiological perspective why you think that being extremely lean somehow changes the body's insulin response to food/changes body water balance in response to insulin?
And I'm not sure why you're bringing diabetics into the equation at all... please show me where it is that I claimed that GI/GL/II/IL is irrelevant for diabetics. We're talking about extremely active athletes who for the most part are not clinically insulin resistant.
I may come off as aggressive but the point I'm trying to get across is that if you can't explain your experience other than purely anecdotally then it has NO empirical value whatsoever and is the epitome of "broscience".
-
12-05-2010, 11:24 AM #66
-
12-05-2010, 01:16 PM #67
-
12-05-2010, 01:40 PM #68
The further you go below your set point, the more insulin sensitive you become. I know you dont like anecdotal evidence but.......I can eat an entire apple pie covered in a ice cream sundae and topped with a quart of honey and feel OK when im sitting above my set point. If I eat a real sugary meal after months of dieting to contest level leanness I need smelling salts to keep from passing out from the insulin response. There is no doubt about it for me....insulin response changes.
"Who the Son sets free is free indeed....."
WNBF Pro Natural Bodybuilder
Check out my CELLUCOR Supplement log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148746693&pagenumber=
3DMJ Athlete
-
-
12-05-2010, 02:15 PM #69
-
12-05-2010, 02:17 PM #70
-
12-05-2010, 08:03 PM #71
Perhaps I worded that wrong. I have been in the situation a few times where I take in a lot of sugar in one shot right after a contest (post contest feed fest) and I get super lightheaded and sick (actually blacked out once). What I believe is happening is that blood sugar is sky rocketing and my body's insulin response is falling short due to the fact that insulin is normally not needed in such large doses because I have become very insulin sensitive. The carbs enter the system, my body releases a normal amount of insulin but blood sugar rises much faster and higher than normal.....I feel sick......give a few minutes and the insulin response catches up. Im not a doc......but this is my best educated guess as to whats happening.
Either way....insulin sensitivity changes the leaner I get."Who the Son sets free is free indeed....."
WNBF Pro Natural Bodybuilder
Check out my CELLUCOR Supplement log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148746693&pagenumber=
3DMJ Athlete
-
12-05-2010, 08:25 PM #72
-
-
12-05-2010, 09:22 PM #73
Getting stage lean isn't exactly a healthy thing to do and it shouldn't be a surprise that he would respond that way to large amounts of sugars after a long prep. I've heard that same story from many people. As he said, if he has a large amount of sugar in the offseason he doesn't have that issue.
1708 total @220 Raw
Improve my total every time I step on the platform.
Being a male is a matter of birth. However, being a "man" is a matter of choice.
Photo in Avi is not current, I'm way fatter now.
-
12-05-2010, 09:47 PM #74
-
12-05-2010, 09:50 PM #75
-
12-05-2010, 10:40 PM #76
Uhmm.. it's called calorie partitioning.. This is an article from Lyle McDonald..
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...ng-part-1.html
The question is why, why is bodyfat percentage having such a profound impact on P-ratio. Well, there are a few easy answers. One is that bodyfat and insulin sensitivity tend to correlate: the fatter you get, the more insulin resistant you tend to get and the leaner you are the more insulin sensitive you tend to be.http://www.3dmusclejourney.com/
http://biolayne.com/
-
-
12-06-2010, 03:43 AM #77
I would highly doubt that i am a type 1 diabetic. Usually type one diabetics have a hard time gaining weight/muscle because the body doesnt use glucose properly. I would be lacking strength, tired, etc. I dont have any of those symptoms. The only time I experience anything like this is when I am in the depths of prep and deprived of glucose for a long period of time.
The times I have had too much to drink I think I can count on about three fingers and none were during prep or when I was very lean. But I have had a drink at a post contest party and you are very right......I was feeling it within minutes of the first sip. But EVERYTHING hits the blood much faster when you are starving. Its not just hunger......the body literally thinks its starving. I wont pretend to know the exact mechanism or the science behind it, but the body becomes very efficient at getting nutrients into the blood and fast."Who the Son sets free is free indeed....."
WNBF Pro Natural Bodybuilder
Check out my CELLUCOR Supplement log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148746693&pagenumber=
3DMJ Athlete
-
12-06-2010, 06:58 AM #78
-
12-06-2010, 08:34 AM #79
-
12-06-2010, 08:36 AM #80
-
-
12-07-2010, 10:14 AM #81
-
12-07-2010, 10:29 AM #82
I don't like bro science but I am also against looking at every system in the body as an isolated thing. You might look at insulin response from various meals at various body fat. Okay, that is the INSULIN response. And you are trying to judge whether it was the INSULIN response causing something. But the body has a million complex functions for everything.
You can know whether a high GI carb meal had a "Good" or "bad" result a particular time but you can't take that and say that it was 100% due to the meal's insulin response. But being able to say whether its bad or good is enough for me.My training log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=143412923
-
12-07-2010, 12:26 PM #83
- Join Date: Dec 2009
- Location: Shawnee Mission, Kansas, United States
- Age: 39
- Posts: 47
- Rep Power: 0
But, now that nutrition is in check, I'm sure I will recomp pretty well at this weigh
Tommy,
Congratulations on all the amazing things happening in your life right now. Could you explain what you mean when you say your body will recomp at a certain weight? Is this able to happen when eating at maintenance? I suppose you mean you will lose fat and gain LBM. Thank you!
John
-
12-08-2010, 11:10 AM #84
- Join Date: Oct 2009
- Location: Tampa, Florida, United States
- Age: 44
- Posts: 2,335
- Rep Power: 3971
that show is pretty addicting! thought you might like this, happy holidays!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7rdWRb-XKQ
(embedding has been disabled for some reason)Lack of activity destroys the good condition of every human being, while movement and methodical physical exercise save it and preserve it. ~Plato
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=143873931
-
-
12-08-2010, 05:31 PM #85
- Join Date: Oct 2003
- Location: Indianapolis, Indiana, United States
- Age: 43
- Posts: 5,013
- Rep Power: 5633
Sunday - Legs
Barbell Squats
225X20
275X20
315X15
365X10
405X6 drop 225X12
Hack Squats SS Leg Press
3p+25psX20/4p+25psX20
5ppsX12/6ppsX12
6ppsX8/7ppsX12
6p+25psX5/7ppsX12
Lying Leg Curls
90X20
115X12
130X10
140X8 drop 85X8
Leg Extensions
130X20
160X15
165X15
210X10 drop 135X10 drop 80X10
Machine Abductor/Adductor
140X20/235X20
140X20/235X20
140X20/135X20
Tuesday - Chest/Back Width/Shoulders
Barbell Bench Press
135X20 (Warm-Up)
185X15 (Warm-Up)
225X10 (Warm-Up)
265X10
295X6
315X4 drop 225X8
Nautilus XP Load Lat Pull-Downs
3p+5psX15
3p+30psX12
4p+5psX10
4p+30psX8 drop 2p+30psX8
Smith Machine Upright Rows
105X15
115X12
125X10
135X8 drop 95X8
Dumbbell Incline Press
95X15
110X10
120X8
130X4 drop 80X10
Close Grip Cable Lat Pull-Downs
190X15
220X10
235X8
245X8 drop 170X8
Hammer Strength Military Press
2ppsX15
3ppsX8
3p+10psX6 drop 2p+10psX6 drop 1p+10psX6
Low-To-High Cable Flys
60psX15
80psX12
80psX12
Wednesday - Arms/Calves
V-Bar Push-Downs
150X20
160X20
190X15
210X12
250X8 drop 160X8
Barbell Bicep Curls
95X15
115X10
125X8
135X6 drop 95X6
Dumbbell Skull Crushers
50X15
60X10
65X8
65X8 drop 45X6
Dumbbell Hammer Curls
55X10
60X8
65X6
70X6 drop 40X10
Overhead Cable Extensions
120X12
130X12
130X12
Hammer Strength Preacher Curls SS EZ Reverse Curls
100X12/45X12
100X11/45X12
100X10/45X12
Seated Plate Loaded Calf Raises
2p+25psX10 - Sporto Tempo
2p+25psX10 - Sporto Tempo
2p+25psX10 - Sporto Tempo
Standing Calf Raise Machine
240X10 - Sporto Tempo
240X10 - Sporto Tempo
240X10 - Sporto Tempo
~It's already getting late (for me anyway as a new parent lol) so I 'm not going to comment much here this time, just posting my last few days of workouts!
Movie Quote Of The Day
"Say, the reason I'm calling is I wanted to tell you a little bit about the candidacy of Al Donnelly. Al Donnelly's a guy with a dream. His dream is to become governor of this great state of Washington. Hell, every guy's got his dream, am I right? Between you, me and the wall here, I doozy myself last night. Get this: A corn-fed harvest mouse, a hooker, a nun, a Flemish peasant woman. Whips, chains, whistles yo-yo's. A circus midget. My grandmother riding by on a bicycle giving me the finger, and a duck! Now, I don't know...are you crying? Oh my Lord. I am sorry honey, please don't...could you get your daddy on the phone? No, don't hang up please I..."
SportoCore Nutritionals Sponsored Athlete
IFPA Professional Natural Bodybuilder
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
-
12-08-2010, 06:02 PM #86
- Join Date: Oct 2003
- Location: Indianapolis, Indiana, United States
- Age: 43
- Posts: 5,013
- Rep Power: 5633
Fat girls need love too...but they gotta pay! (Family Guy quote..not trying to be an ass lol)
It's all about balance! I'm learning how to keep a nice balance as we speak! Of course, it helps to have a wife who understands the lifestyle!
I never said nor implied that being extremely lean changes the insulin response to food.
And no, we are not just talking about extremely active athletes, there are plenty of bodybuilders, and great ones at that, who are more IR than they are IS...especially older bodybuilders.
I don't mind the aggressive part, but you are making assumptions AND you are being a pr*ck about it. It is possible to discuss things without an attitude like you are all high and mighty with knowledge you know...besides, my experiences with myself and my clients all show that something is obviously working - whether there is a study done to prove it is pointless to me since I care about what works practically in the real world, at real shows.
So you believe that insulin plays no role in calorie partitioning?
Exactly. When you get extremely lean, calorie partitioning becomes much more significant when tyring to achieve a certain look. Again, many bodybuilders can get lean with glutes, but because of little things like food source, they will lack other attributes...
I was mainly looking at the insulin response from food intake from a calorie partitioning perspective. When you are extremely lean, every little bit matters...
And you can argue with me all you want, the results I have seen over and over are enough for me to keep doing what I am doing. Most people that I have worked with who have not paid attention to food source before, all report a wide range of looks throughout a given week. When they started working with me and paying attention to food source, they had a very consistent look throughout their entire prep.
Hmm...
No it's not...there is no doubt a lot going on that doesn't go on in normal healthy adults. Trying to compare a legitimate 3-4% bodybuilder to a normal 10-14% active person is like comparing apples to oranges.
Nice find! I've had several discussions with Lyle on this very topic...
No you are not type I diabetic LOL
Lucky...mine went even lower lol
I am definitely random!
All I care about are real world results. When food source was strictly controlled, noticeable differences were made...especially in the final look on stage. Period.
Thanks!
Basically I just mean that I will be controlling cals and food source, maintaining around this weight, and focusing on strength gains in all rep ranges. I feel like this is a good weight for me to be at and grow, and as I build muscle and weight starts to creep, I will adjust things to stay around here (mini cuts, etc.)
Nice!
SportoCore Nutritionals Sponsored Athlete
IFPA Professional Natural Bodybuilder
NASM Certified Personal Trainer
-
12-08-2010, 08:16 PM #87
I'm not sure why your questioning this guy. It's not like he's saying that everything he does is gospel and EVERYBODY should do it or they'll look like crap. The guy is a freaking IFPA Pro for crying out loud!! He might know a thing or two about bodybuilding. It's one thing to question if you're trying to learn. BRB telling Cutler that everything he does is BS.
1708 total @220 Raw
Improve my total every time I step on the platform.
Being a male is a matter of birth. However, being a "man" is a matter of choice.
Photo in Avi is not current, I'm way fatter now.
-
12-08-2010, 08:20 PM #88
I'm wondering if there is any logic behind it other than "I ate like X and then like Y and I looked better when I ate Y" - which is no doubt reasonable in a singular case but I'm looking at this empirically.
I find it unfortunate that so many people take what pros say without expecting some rationale behind it.
I asked Tommy because he used to be a huge advocate of eating "within macros" and similarly he used to be against flat bench pressing as a chest exercise and he's changed his mind on both. It's worth the line of questioning.
Sorry that so many of you are so upset by something on the internet. Christ.
-
-
12-08-2010, 08:43 PM #89
I see what you're saying. Why is it against the law for someone to change their mind? I thought you knew that bodybuilding is almost always singular in regards to how one responds to certain protocol. Tommy was just making the it known that getting to an ELITE level is very difficult to do and it may require going against the grain to achieve it. This is not surprising considering everybody is unique in their bodies makeup, chemistry, and overall response to variables. Sure, just about anybody can get stage lean. However, it's getting stage lean, filling back out, and having a POP to your muscle/physique is a pretty hard combination to achieve. Doing so is gonna require some experimentation and may even require one to go against what they previously held as gospel or truth.
1708 total @220 Raw
Improve my total every time I step on the platform.
Being a male is a matter of birth. However, being a "man" is a matter of choice.
Photo in Avi is not current, I'm way fatter now.
-
12-08-2010, 09:33 PM #90
- Join Date: Feb 2005
- Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
- Age: 41
- Posts: 10,202
- Rep Power: 0
In bold---my thoughts exactly! It infuriates me that all the 150lbers etc on this site reFUSE to accept real world experiences as truth. If it isn't done in a lab coat as an experience then it isn't true. Ridiculous. Emulate what you aspire to be. And what most successful bodybuilders do whether natural or enhanced works GREAT FOR THEM (in b4 it works in spite of them whatever) ..so why not emulate that?
How is the rebound going Tommy? Still getting strength back it seems...
Similar Threads
-
The Never-Ending Bulk Thread... <-- Join it!
By RobDude in forum Workout JournalsReplies: 1Last Post: 03-07-2006, 05:10 PM -
The Never-Ending Struggle.........or?
By Leulsa in forum JournalingReplies: 8Last Post: 07-15-2005, 11:09 AM -
The never ending strap debate
By FJ and G in forum Over Age 35Replies: 74Last Post: 03-14-2005, 09:36 AM
Bookmarks