Argument from Poor Design

[user5145]

Absolutely. However, Faith and that philosophy can come from external events and "happenings"...meaning the 76 specific things in my life that 'changed' my life simply can not just be 76 consecutive coincidences. Without knowing the details, on the surface, it could be a "yur teh idiot" statement...but I'd love to share one day what those 76 consecutive things were in my life that I simply can't say are coincidences one right after another.

I'd be interested in hearing them.

[AronP24]

I'd be interested in hearing them.

absolutely! I'll post from work tommorrow evening!
I usually have some down time between 8-10pm
It'll take a bit to type out...so I'll try to get it posted by then

even from an Atheist or Agnostic perspective I think you'd appreciate the 'wild ride' I've been on in my life
I'm like forrest gump without the shrimp

[geeseman]

Absolutely. However, Faith and that philosophy can come from external events and "happenings"...meaning the 76 specific things in my life that 'changed' my life simply can not just be 76 consecutive coincidences. Without knowing the details, on the surface, it could be a "yur teh idiot" statement...but I'd love to share one day what those 76 consecutive things were in my life that I simply can't say are coincidences one right after another.

Do you know how unlikely it was for life to have begun in the first place? Do you know the odds against it? I can assure you they are very low.
However, if this did happen, and we know it did, but not exactly how as yet, why is it then that you consider it impossible for your 76 events to be coincident?

Your life is just but one in billions of billions. I'm sure coincident that people confuse with divine action occur all the time.

[AronP24]

if this did happen, and we know it did, but not exactly how as yet.

You have your faith, I have mine.

[ONtop888]

Do you know how unlikely it was for life to have begun in the first place? Do you know the odds against it? I can assure you they are very low.

Indeed, indeed. So low, in fact, that it would take nothing short of a miracle to spontaneously generate life. Thanks for furthering the point that God is the Creator and not natural occurences with no direction.

[_TG_]

Indeed, indeed. So low, in fact, that it would take nothing short of a miracle to spontaneously generate life. Thanks for furthering the point that God is the Creator and not natural occurences with no direction.

Argument from incredibility; if the probability is low then it must be a creator that did it. fail

[ONtop888]

Argument from incredibility; if the probability is low then it must be a creator that did it. fail

I wasn't making a serious argument with that statement, just messin wit teh geezman

[geeseman]

You have your faith, I have mine.

I know it happened because I am here.


How it happened are two different things. I believe that it was an act of chemicals combining into a replicating entity that eventually became an organism. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that this is the case.


You believe in a magical god who clapped his hands and it all began because he said so.
You have no evidence whatsoever to support this belief.

[AronP24]

I know it happened because I am here.


How it happened are two different things. I believe that it was an act of chemicals combining into a replicating entity that eventually became an organism.

Did 'Nothingness' clap IT'S hands and make the initial chemicals that jump started the entire process?

[beefstuinit]

Indeed, indeed. So low, in fact, that it would take nothing short of a miracle to spontaneously generate life. Thanks for furthering the point that God is the Creator and not natural occurences with no direction.

Actually on the scale of absolute time its really kind of trivial. Scientists have made amino acids out of whats basically seawater in the lab, basic statistics agrees that given a few billion years molecules that can store information can occur quite easily. FYI we're only like 100k years old meng.

[_TG_]

You have your faith, I have mine.

I have faith that the Auburn Tigers will win the NC. Likely - not with Saban. Possible - maybe in 10 years. lulz

I wasn't making a serious argument with that statement, just messin wit teh geezman

Yes I know hence the .

[beefstuinit]

Did 'Nothingness' clap IT'S hands and make the initial chemicals that jump started the entire process?

Lol. No, there's plenty of plausible theories but here's a good one, heat and radiation in the form of a lightening strike formed amino acids. Amino acids are reactive, they form a smorgasboard of different molecules in solution. Do this billions of times over billions of years statistically you can easily get basic genetic molecules.

It sounds crazy to you, but really, if you understand a normal distribution, a little chemistry, and geologic time scales, it's pretty simple.

[AronP24]

I have faith that the Auburn Tigers will win the NC. Likely - not with Saban. Possible - maybe in 10 years. lulz

Oh YOU'RE good! I can say without a doubt it will not be this year..haha

was SO not expecting that one...I'm still laughing

[geeseman]

Did 'Nothingness' clap IT'S hands and make the initial chemicals that jump started the entire process?

Chemicals react in the presence of other chemicals and form bonds. They don't need magic hands to make them combine or to react. Enzymes speed up chemical reactions and some chemicals can be their own enzymes for reactions, allowing chemicals to instantly react at certain temperatures or in the presence of other chemicals.

Understanding this and given time it isn't too difficult to believe that replicators made their start in the soup that was on the surface of this planet when it hardened billions of years ago.

[beefstuinit]

Chemicals react in the presence of other chemicals and form bonds. They don't need magic hands to make them combine or to react. Enzymes speed up chemical reactions and some chemicals can be their own enzymes for reactions, allowing chemicals to instantly react at certain temperatures or in the presence of other chemicals.

Understanding this and given time it isn't too difficult to believe that replicators made their start in the soup that was on the surface of this planet when it hardened billions of years ago.

Obviously it's not hard to believe if you draw a flowchart for someone without dogma in their life. But for a religious person it creates cognitive dissonance as it explains what should be mysterious and unexplainable. Some religious people rationalize by attributing this process to the almighty.

This I take no issue with. If you are willing to attribute every scientific discovery to god without changes, raising a bru-hah and you keep it to yourself, whatever, believe what you want.

Others cannot reconcile their belief and attempt to teach things like intelligent design in school. Those people are irrational and have no place in the debate. We gotta get them out.

[Boffman]

Yes, His creation isn't required to be perfect, if it was than God would be restrained from doing what He wills, then God is not omnipotent.

We are arguing logic in the first place, so he is restrained to what's logically possible. Also, if this were actually the case and one attribute did actually impede on the other, this is what's called a contradiction.

However, if God's will is perfect than everything He creates is made perfect in accordance to His will, therefore; the creation itself isn't required to be perfect, if God willed the creation not to be.

What's your definition of a perfect being?

[geeseman]

Others cannot reconcile their belief and attempt to teach things like intelligent design in school. Those people are irrational and have no place in the debate. We gotta get them out.

Amen... er, I mean yes.

[ONtop888]

We are arguing logic in the first place, so he is restrained to what's logically possible. Also, if this were actually the case and one attribute did actually impede on the other, this is what's called a contradiction.

What attributes of God that I listed do you think contradict eachother? Also, it is baseless for you to make the assumption that a perfect being must make perfect creations.

What's your definition of a perfect being?

God and all of His Divine attributes.

[beefstuinit]

God and all of His Divine attributes.

This is what I'm talking about. To anyone who didn't get the treatment at bible school that just sounds like complete gibberish. If you want to believe in god fine, but what the hell does a divine attribute have to do with evolution? And what for that matter is a divine attribute? And don't quote the bible.

[AronP24]

Chemicals react in the presence of other chemicals and form bonds. They don't need magic hands to make them combine or to react. Enzymes speed up chemical reactions and some chemicals can be their own enzymes for reactions, allowing chemicals to instantly react at certain temperatures or in the presence of other chemicals.

Understanding this and given time it isn't too difficult to believe that replicators made their start in the soup that was on the surface of this planet when it hardened billions of years ago.

I appreciate the chemistry lesson (serious)..however, that doesn't answer where the chemicals came from.

Thus we are stuck at being satisfied with the unknown or attributing it to a creator

I've chosen the latter. That doesn't make me more or less of a 'parasite' (from one of our previous discussions, which I will still respond to) as choosing the former would make you.

[ONtop888]

This is what I'm talking about. To anyone who didn't get the treatment at bible school that just sounds like complete gibberish. If you want to believe in god fine, but what the hell does a divine attribute have to do with evolution? And what for that matter is a divine attribute? And don't quote the bible.

What does evolution have to do with what we're discussing? nothing.

[beefstuinit]

I appreciate the chemistry lesson (serious)..however, that doesn't answer where the chemicals came from.

Thus we are stuck at being satisfied with the unknown or attributing it to a creator

I've chosen the latter. That doesn't make me more or less of a 'parasite' (from one of our previous discussions, which I will still respond to) as choosing the former would make you.

Actually I can tell you that, you might enjoy the answer.

Elements other than helium and hydrogen come from stars. They are produced in the core and are blasted across the cosmos in supernovae to coalesce, react, and form all kinds of interesting compounds, molecules, chemicals. We can watch this going on with telescopes, we can explain it with nuclear physics. Stars are the nuclear furnaces of the cosmos, the only place where neutrons, protons, and electrons change places en masse to make interesting things like carbon, which you are primarily made of.

That means that certainly every atom in your body that is not hydrogen or helium at one point was formed in a star and experienced a supernovae. We know this. We're really only borrowing the elements that form our bodies, the stuff we're made of has been around for millenia and has been through more exciting things than sitting in my ass as I type this, and it'll be around unimaginably long after it we stop using it.

**** like that is why I never needed religion.

[_TG_]

Thus we are stuck at being satisfied with the unknown or attributing it to a creator

I've chosen the latter. That doesn't make me more or less of a 'parasite' (from one of our previous discussions, which I will still respond to) as choosing the former would make you.

I go with ockham's razor. There's more evidence of no creator than there is for a creator.

Atheists choose the evidence that is given. And I've seen no evidence for a creator, so saying unknown is not correct.

[beefstuinit]

Actually I can tell you that, you might enjoy the answer.

Elements other than helium and hydrogen come from stars. They are produced in the core and are blasted across the cosmos in supernovae to coalesce, react, and form all kinds of interesting compounds, molecules, chemicals. We can watch this going on with telescopes, we can explain it with nuclear physics. Stars are the nuclear furnaces of the cosmos, the only place where neutrons, protons, and electrons change places en masse to make interesting things like carbon, which you are primarily made of.

That means that certainly every atom in your body that is not hydrogen or helium at one point was formed in a star and experienced a supernovae. We know this. We're really only borrowing the elements that form our bodies, the stuff we're made of has been around for millenia and has been through more exciting things than sitting in my ass as I type this, and it'll be around unimaginably long after it we stop using it.

**** like that is why I never needed religion.

It's kind of fun to think your left nut at one point may have been involved in something like this:



Keep in mind that these assertions are not made lightly, this is scientific fact my friend. We watch it happen all the time.

[beefstuinit]

But really, how exactly does religion reconcile something like us witnessing the creation of the same elements that make us up, in a supernovae, 4 million light years away?

Are you really going to tell me that's just a pretty light show for us to look at and that we're special?

[AronP24]

....and electrons change places en masse to make interesting things like carbon, which you are primarily made of.

fuuuuuuuuu (dge) ...does this mean that when they pass Cap and Trade, the government will tax me for..well, being me...haha

I was aware we are carbon based...I wish more Americans knew that....but that's a whole seperate R/P (mainly P) discussion

I appreciate you explaining it, however, the 'kooky' believer in a creator in me must ask...where did those stars come from......?

See what I mean? At some point, though our minds can not fathom it, absolutely nothing became something...a star, an element, a douchy believer in a creator, etc ...

either it "just did" , or it was created...believing the latter, on that alone, shouldn't make me a fringe nutcase

[AronP24]

I go with ockham's razor. There's more evidence of no creator than there is for a creator.

Atheists chose the evidence that is given. And I've seen no evidence for a creator, so saying unknown is not correct.

surely ye jest....
If you're a Bammer, not admitting that your Saban is lord and creator is surely heresy....

[beefstuinit]

fuuuuuuuuu (dge) ...does this mean that when they pass Cap and Trade, the government will tax me for..well, being me...haha

I was aware we are carbon based...I wish more Americans knew that....but that's a whole seperate R/P (mainly P) discussion

I appreciate you explaining it, however, the 'kooky' believer in a creator in me must ask...where did those stars come from......?

See what I mean? At some point, though our minds can not fathom it, absolutely nothing became something...a star, an element, a douchy believer in a creator, etc ...

either it "just did" , or it was created...believing the latter, on that alone, shouldn't make me a fringe nutcase

My only issue is that people let the idea that it was all created take away from the passion to figure it out. We know more than you think and we find out more every year, if we all just accept that god made it then why bother to look?

Sun's result from the gravitational compression of hydrogen and helium. Basically the gas swirls around until it gets squeezed so tight by its own weight that it becomes incredibly hot and "ignites" and becoming essentially one big ass constant nuclear explosion. Also cool.

You're right that the deeper we look the more we find.

The mystery is why people look. I personally hope the rabbit hole never ends because it would be boring if it did. The cool thing is the further we go the crazier it gets. I mean recently we've discovered that two quantum particles can "talk" to each other instantly, faster than the speed of the light, over any distance. They literally "teleport" information about each other through space and time like it doesn't even exist. Our atoms, which were made in stars, are made up of such weird particles.

I mean what? It makes no sense, it's completely insane, but it happens. We're finding out that just when we thought we knew, we had no idea, and it's freaking awesome. Why wouldn't people want to understand this stuff?

[AronP24]

Are you really going to tell me that's just a pretty light show for us to look at and that we're special?

my mom always told me I'm special.....but so did a lot of teachers who put me in the hallway...hmmmm

[AronP24]

I don't take issue with belief in god, I take issue with people putting god in conflict with scientific discovery.

I absolutely agree. I'm kinetic and, by nature, a doubter.....
hence, I like to learn