The death of Nitric Oxide (NO)?

**robertthoburn** · 05-04-2003, 08:27 PM

Nitric Oxide (NO)-enhancing dietary supplements are claimed to help you build bigger, leaner, more powerful muscles. These products are largely based on arginine, arginine alpha-ketoglutarate and related potential NO precursors.

If these products are as safe and effective as the ads want you to believe, then why are so many of the companies selling them expected to panic when the much awaited paper "I don't NO" is released to the public?

"I don't NO" will change the way you look at arginine-based NO-enhancing dietary supplements forever.

The bodybuilding supplement industry will never be the same.

"I don't NO" is over 20 pages in length. It discusses the physiology and pharmacology of NO as it pertains to you, the bodybuilder. "I don't NO" is complete with scientific references and revealing personal communications from some of the world's leading NO research scientists.

Will this mark the end of NO-enhancing dietary supplements? Is the 'perpetual pump' about to burst?

"I don't NO" is authored by Robert Thoburn.

Protect your money and your body. Keep visiting this site, and those of Mindandmuscle (AdvantLabs) and OneFastFourHundred (written numerically) so that you can find out how and where to get a copy of "I don't NO" as soon as it becomes available!

Thanks for your attention,
Rob

**pu12en12g** · 05-04-2003, 08:37 PM

W T F ?

**robertthoburn** · 05-04-2003, 08:46 PM

Here's just a tidbit of what to expect from my forthcoming article, "I don't NO". This comes from a nitric oxide (NO) research scientist, responding to one of my questions:

"...We are currently looking at constitutive nNOS and the
regulation by arginase. Our results would predict that arginine
supplementation would increase iNOS activity and possibly then increase the level of injury. I think the untested assumption inherent in the question is that arginine's beneficial effects are related to niitric oxide... It is possible that arginine affects other processes to confer its salutary effects. Our findings argue however, that translational control may be a worthy target for therapy where iNOS is either too little or too much...."

Intrigued? I was.

Best,
Rob

**kixazz2529** · 05-04-2003, 11:27 PM

NOS precursor claims that it only creates eNOS and not iNOS is this true or is this just a lie to make the product sound as if it is good yet it still just creates the bad form of NOS??

please let me know, hopin i didnt just waste more money on supplements

thanks

**philhill4** · 05-05-2003, 10:28 AM

I don't care what the article says I know way to many people who have gotten results from it. In the end all that matters is if it works.

**wasntme** · 05-05-2003, 11:13 AM

interesting, i look forward to the article.

**chris008** · 05-05-2003, 11:16 AM

click below

http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=117

**ralph4u2c** · 05-05-2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by philhill4
I don't care what the article says I know way to many people who have gotten results from it. In the end all that matters is if it works.

thats one of the most idiotic and smartass remarks i have ever heard. in the end, if it is safe then thats good... not if it works. i know many things that work and get good results from but put a risk of short and/or long term health effects on you. risking my life, body, or full age potential over 1-2lbs of muscle that i woud probably loose in a few weeks of cutting isn't worth it IMO.

**pu12en12g** · 05-05-2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by chris008
click below

http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=117

Doesn't AST still sell regular 'ol ANDRO ?

lmfao..

**CHUCK DIESEL** · 05-05-2003, 12:39 PM

This guy works for AST or pinnacle, he believes in those myostatin products, he has an article in the current Planet Muscle (yellow cover) about how research shows when you change the genes in rats to inhibit, blablabla, anyway he says taking the pinnacle myostatin products do the same thing as genetically altering mice......that�s a WTF.

Tell him to email me, short of a NO biochemist he cannot prove my Nitric Oxide knowledge incorrect, especially pertaining to iNOS, eNOS, nNOS, and even ecNOS- Estrogen receptor NOS. Ca dependant NOS release you name it I know it. Don't get me started.

**RippedUp** · 05-05-2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
This guy works for AST or pinnacle,

Puhhhhleeeeeease...

**pu12en12g** · 05-05-2003, 12:58 PM

Drs. Robert Fried & W Merrell, The Arginine Solution, 1999

Barbul, Fishel, Shimazu, Wasserkrug, Yoshimura, Tao, and Efron, Intravenous Alimentation with High Arginine Levels Improves Wound Healing and Immune Function, Journal of Surgical Research, 38 (1985), 228-334

Jay Lombard, Board Certified Neurologist; The Brain Wellness Plan, Breakthrough Medical, Nutritional, and Immune-Boosting Therapies 1998

Moncada & Higgs, Nitric Oxide from L-Arginine: A Bioregulatory System, 1990

Hishikawa, Nakaki, Tsuda, Esumi, Ohshima, Suzuli, Saruta and Kato, Effect of Systemic L-Arginine Administration on Hemodynamics and Nitric Oxide Release in Man, Japan Heart Journal, 33 (1992), 41-48

Burnett, A. L., Nitric Oxide in the Penis: Physiology and Pathology, Journal of Urology, 157 (1997), 90-94

Schaffer MR, Tantry U; van Wesep RA, Barbul A. Nitric oxide metabolism in wounds. Journal Surgical Res. 1997, 71:25E31

Schmidt, Hofmann, Schindler, Shutenko, et al. NO from NO Synthase, Proc Natl Acad Sci. 1996, 93:14492-14497

1998 FDA Public Records Department

**CHUCK DIESEL** · 05-05-2003, 01:09 PM

"NOS precursor claims that it only creates eNOS and not iNOS is this true or is this just a lie to make the product sound as if it is good yet it still just creates the bad form of NOS?? "

Think about it, NOX2, NP2, NOS matrix, all the others have all been designed as a clone of NO2. If anyone including Ed Byrd knew the difference between iNOS, eNOS and nNOS, they would have designed a product specific to enhancing the beneficial process of eNOS, and nNOS and limiting iNOS. I started talking about iNOS last year, and people from other companies were like what the hell are you talking about. Look at PBL's NOS Matrix, they swear their scientist basically invented NO2!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/pbl/nos.html

I am not knocking the NO- AAkg products as I have not tried any of them, I just knew when large retailers wanted me to develop a NO2 knock off in Sept 2002 when they found out NO2 was going to be GNC only, they did not want NOS because it wasn�t a NO2 clone, they did not care about eNOS, etc.., they said why don�t you just put some AAKG and time release it like everyone else....I don't do products to come back and bite me in the ass, or show I could have done it better, or more beneficial. Search this board there is enough on the argument of eNOS and iNOS.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/search...der=descending

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/search...der=descending

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/search...der=descending

Read all of these posts from front to back before asking any NO questions!

Don�t expect me to post why I use what in my products in what combinations and ratio's, I will not be responsible for bringing other companies to my level, I say on my site and link to other NO products, I don't hate on anyone�s product, but there are now what 8 products out exactly the same, you have to look at the companies boot-legging the formulas and decide are they trying to put out good products, or jump on a "here today gone tomorrow" bandwagon. My philosophy is don�t put out anything I don�t use.

BTW AST is notorious for posting why something doesn�t work, but wear blinders for all the products they may sale with 2X the data saying the ingredients are crap, i.e. androstenedione, MHP also. I still believe in AST�s alpha lipoic acid, and their glutamine, prices aside. So I guess they use quality ingredients, just knock everything they don�t sale.

**dio** · 05-05-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by chris008
click below

http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=117

That article was amazingly (and ironically) devoid of any scientific disproval of NO products. Any idiot can attack claims in ads.

**dio** · 05-05-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
This guy works for AST or pinnacle, he believes in those myostatin products, he has an article in the current Planet Muscle (yellow cover) about how research shows when you change the genes in rats to inhibit, blablabla, anyway he says taking the pinnacle myostatin products do the same thing as genetically altering mice......that�s a WTF.

Tell him to email me, short of a NO biochemist he cannot prove my Nitric Oxide knowledge incorrect, especially pertaining to iNOS, eNOS, nNOS, and even ecNOS- Estrogen receptor NOS. Ca dependant NOS release you name it I know it. Don't get me started.

Rob seems to be a stand-up guy to me. From what I understand the article in Planet Muscle was edited to remove some of damning things said about myostatin products.

Anyway, from what I've seen and had time to look into, you've done a good job of defending your product and the approach you took. I would not be surprised to see some of the same conclusions in the upcoming article (on iNOS, etc)

**pogue** · 05-05-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
he believes in those myostatin products

This is incorrect. Look over the articles on the site and you will see there are articles debunking myostatin, etc.

They do pimp Gaba and Glutamine, but most of their articles are straight forward.

Wait, are we talking about Rob, or the guy that wrote the articles for AST?

**CHUCK DIESEL** · 05-05-2003, 01:24 PM

Rob

Paul Cribb is actually straight fw. like you said.

**robertthoburn** · 05-05-2003, 01:58 PM

Get your facts straight (except Pogue).

Read my original myostatin article, as posted on OneFastFourHundred.

If you know who I am, you know that 90% of what has been written in this thread is nonsense.

I do not work for Pinnacle, nor AST, nor any company making a purported 'myostatin inhibitor'. The article makes this abundantly clear.

Check your facts. I've checked mine, and consequently I'm very, very excited to release "I don't NO" and other 'debunking' pieces in the near future.

Whatever your products (to the marketers out there), if they have direct proof of efficacy, then you have nothing to worry about, now do you?

Furthermore, if I'm such an ill-educated fool, then what I have to say (or write) really won't matter, will it?

What do I know?

Rob

**robertthoburn** · 05-05-2003, 01:59 PM

That's a beautiful quote. "Any idiot can attack claims in ads".

Makes you wonder why anyone would want to write ads that any idiot could poke holes in, huh?

**CHUCK DIESEL** · 05-05-2003, 02:22 PM

Ok, so he doesn�t work for those guys, I made a mistake. I have not seen new NO report, and have nothing to worry about, statement agreed upon.

Also Rob, was your Myostatin article in the yellow Planet Muscle edited or printed as you wrote it? And either way what does genetically altering mice have to do with a supplement in humans, did they give the supplement to the mice? You can PM me on that, that has nothing to do with NO.

I am not going to knock the NO article before it is done, but if it points to arginine by itself encouraging an increase in iNOS, that�s what I have been saying for a while.

**dio** · 05-05-2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by robertthoburn
That's a beautiful quote. "Any idiot can attack claims in ads".

Makes you wonder why anyone would want to write ads that any idiot could poke holes in, huh?

Is EVERYBODY is this industry overly sensitive?

I did not attack your article Rob, I pointed out that the lack of science in the one posted AST's site. They are very good at bashing products from other companies with very narrow or one sided views of the research.

That said, all of these companies put these garbage ads out because, unfortunately, they tend to work. "The bigger the lie the more people will want to believe it."

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your article. Hopefully, you cover/confirm some of the points shpongled touched on in his NO threads on this board and Mind and muscle.

**The Conqueror** · 05-05-2003, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by robertthoburn
Nitric Oxide (NO)-enhancing dietary supplements are claimed to help you build bigger, leaner, more powerful muscles. These products are largely based on arginine, arginine alpha-ketoglutarate and related potential NO precursors.

If these products are as safe and effective as the ads want you to believe, then why are so many of the companies selling them expected to panic when the much awaited paper "I don't NO" is released to the public?

"I don't NO" will change the way you look at arginine-based NO-enhancing dietary supplements forever.

The bodybuilding supplement industry will never be the same.

"I don't NO" is over 20 pages in length. It discusses the physiology and pharmacology of NO as it pertains to you, the bodybuilder. "I don't NO" is complete with scientific references and revealing personal communications from some of the world's leading NO research scientists.

Will this mark the end of NO-enhancing dietary supplements? Is the 'perpetual pump' about to burst?

"I don't NO" is authored by Robert Thoburn.

Protect your money and your body. Keep visiting this site, and those of Mindandmuscle (AdvantLabs) and OneFastFourHundred (written numerically) so that you can find out how and where to get a copy of "I don't NO" as soon as it becomes available!

Thanks for your attention,
Rob

I just did a search of your posts (69 at the time of this writing) you sound sooooooo much like a self-promoting lunatic that it's pathetic.

My advice is that if you want to contribute....feel free to do so. If you want to play guru just get the f*ck out. The last things these boards need is another self-endorsing fraud that wants to start a bunch of sh*t.

Before you get upset let me tell you that it's your approach that's offensive! If you have some info just post it logically...don't try to pimp it to us.

Not a flame...just some friendly advice.
Michael B
The Celtic Conqueror

**robertthoburn** · 05-05-2003, 03:30 PM

I'll take that as a 'no'.

**wasntme** · 05-05-2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by robertthoburn
I'll take that as a 'no'.

im interested. please dont mind the conqueror. just another 8th grader whos mother wont let him go out and play.

**The Conqueror** · 05-05-2003, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by wasntme
im interested. please dont mind the conqueror. just another 8th grader whos mother wont let him go out and play.

**1fast400** · 05-05-2003, 07:02 PM

Go to mindandmuscle.net do a seach under his name, the guy is smart.

**The Conqueror** · 05-05-2003, 07:14 PM

Alright.

I'll read it. 1fast. I respect the things that you've done. If you say it's worth a look. I'll look.

I'm big enough to say if I come on a little strong. Robert, I will read your paper and draw my own conclusions. I look forward to it.

MichaelB
The Celtic Conqueror

**Greg_SD** · 05-06-2003, 11:39 AM

I am always interested in any potential negative side effects with anything I take. I don�t compete, and I don�t plan to so anything with a bad side effect is not worth taking for me. I will probably read it when it�s done. Although, I rarely take information posted on message boards (not officially published with a reputable source for medical information) as gospel.

The only problem I have is that you have spammed the same thing over at least 4 threads now. At least keep it on one thread so all the replies are consolidated.

**1fast400** · 05-06-2003, 03:21 PM

Sometimes it takes people a while to get adjusted to message board life. Robert produces well researched and thought out papers. All of his material is referenced, very good stuff.

**xAEMxRACERx** · 09-07-2009, 04:47 PM

lol- havent found a single working link to the supposed expose on this entire thread....btw, what yall think about that BSN stuff Volumaize? (I only ask because a banner on this website just reminded me about it, and NO X-plod pertains to this topic lol)

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