AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[DAJDive]

Repeat with the same weight or add min 10%. If you bump 5% you will have a 3 week deload, its not pretty.

Your options are:
switch to novice which is 3 sets of 4-8 reps with the same 90 seconds or less rest (yes test day is still 24 reps total).
Switch to auto regulated:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1376160513

You are on cycle 6 of a 5-7 cycle program, so... Id start shopping for a 2-3 year program now.

Could he add the 5% bump and then on medium and light days add 2 and 4 reps respectively? Might be a deload, but volume would increase. Any benefit?

[lordnoak]

I'm at a new gym, which is very busy during the times I am going. If I can't get to a squat rack to do squats one day can I do two heavy set days for just squats even if I'm doing the normal 3 days for everything else?

[nightanole]

Could he add the 5% bump and then on medium and light days add 2 and 4 reps respectively? Might be a deload, but volume would increase. Any benefit?

That would be the allpro butchered program. But again, he wouldnt see peak weight again for another 4 weeks. It would be very slow progression.

[nightanole]

I'm at a new gym, which is very busy during the times I am going. If I can't get to a squat rack to do squats one day can I do two heavy set days for just squats even if I'm doing the normal 3 days for everything else?

The first 3 lifts need to be done first in no particular order, followed by the rest in no particular order.

In theory it shouldnt cause any problems with squat progression. The only problem might be if the lack of squats one day causes too much recovery and the fatigue does not build up on the last 4 lifts.

You could try it since i know its not going to be detrimental to the main lifts.

[chubbybones]

Legpress or hack squat, or some other quad dominant lift (maybe something with landmine or T bar in its name). The hams are already hit with the SLDL.

Hey nightanole,
Thanks for your response.What do you think about zercher squats?.I've heard they're particularly safe for ppl with back issues and still work the quads and glutes.If this exercise is allright i was wondering what weight i should start with seeing that my current squat weights are 75kg.I realise its a completely different technique and so i cant expect to use the same weight but maybe if i started on 40-50kg range,i could transition wihthout losing too much progress.
Again i appreciate your feedback.
Cheers

[nightanole]

Hey nightanole,
Thanks for your response.What do you think about zercher squats?.I've heard they're particularly safe for ppl with back issues and still work the quads and glutes.If this exercise is allright i was wondering what weight i should start with seeing that my current squat weights are 75kg.I realise its a completely different technique and so i cant expect to use the same weight but maybe if i started on 40-50kg range,i could transition wihthout losing too much progress.
Again i appreciate your feedback.
Cheers

Zerchers are for people who dont have a rack or have shoulder pain, it does not take the back out of the equation. I recommend the zerchers as a direct replacement for the back squat for people running the program without a squat cage. They can be done with the same amount of weight once you have the form down.

The trick is to get the bar to rest on both forearm bones, and not just one, or worse the elbow pocket. Feel free to wrap the bar in a shirt or towel AFTER you get the form down of resting on both bones.

[janaewalker]

Thanks for sharing

[Hillsy89]

Hi all,

I am loving this routine so far, and I expect I will for the coming months. Just a couple of questions.

I am coming in to lifting with a pretty good overall fitness level, throughout 2015 I did a lot of indoor climbing, I generally run 4+ times per week (distances vary depending on the event I am training for) and have followed various bodyweight routines from time to time to help drop bodyfat and keep some muscle if I start to lose all of my muscle from running a lot (or whenever I need to).

This I think has left me with a a bit of a muscle imbalance, as my bent over row is 1RM is 7KG higher than my bench 1RM. My bench 1RM currently sits at 110lb with my bent over row at 125lb. Will this balance itself out as the plan moves on, with me plateauing on BoR with my bench increasing, or should I amend something to correct this now?

(The next question might sound really stupid sorry, but just wanted to ask)
I am currently planning to do 'a few' (5?) cycles of this and then asses how I am doing. However, I have read in a lot of places that you are generally considered 'intermediate' when you pass the following three criteria: a) Can squat 1.5X, bench 1X and DL 2X your BW, b) Weight has become so high you need more recovery and c) have DAMN GOOD form. Although I am just starting, My squat is already 1.2x+, bench about 0.7x (Would be more, need to work on form), and DL 1.3x+ (Probably be higher but I only have 100KG (220lb) of weights, I need to buy more on pay day). I have calculated the weight increases for my cycles and I will be past the 'beginner' numbers at the end of cycle 3, assuming I don't plateau within the first 3 cycles (which I should not with n00b gains and my diet is damn good). If I do surpass these numbers, and am confident with my form after 15 weeks, three cycles, should I look at the possibility of moving on to All Pro's intermediate 1/2? Or would you recommend I stick out the simple beginner plan for at least the recommended 6-9 months?

Thanks in advance guys, again really enjoying this plan at the moment, wish I had found it and started lifting a long time ago!

[nightanole]

Hi all,

I am loving this routine so far, and I expect I will for the coming months. Just a couple of questions.

I am coming in to lifting with a pretty good overall fitness level, throughout 2015 I did a lot of indoor climbing, I generally run 4+ times per week (distances vary depending on the event I am training for) and have followed various bodyweight routines from time to time to help drop bodyfat and keep some muscle if I start to lose all of my muscle from running a lot (or whenever I need to).

This I think has left me with a a bit of a muscle imbalance, as my bent over row is 1RM is 7KG higher than my bench 1RM. My bench 1RM currently sits at 110lb with my bent over row at 125lb. Will this balance itself out as the plan moves on, with me plateauing on BoR with my bench increasing, or should I amend something to correct this now?

(The next question might sound really stupid sorry, but just wanted to ask)
I am currently planning to do 'a few' (5?) cycles of this and then asses how I am doing. However, I have read in a lot of places that you are generally considered 'intermediate' when you pass the following three criteria: a) Can squat 1.5X, bench 1X and DL 2X your BW, b) Weight has become so high you need more recovery and c) have DAMN GOOD form. Although I am just starting, My squat is already 1.2x+, bench about 0.7x (Would be more, need to work on form), and DL 1.3x+ (Probably be higher but I only have 100KG (220lb) of weights, I need to buy more on pay day). I have calculated the weight increases for my cycles and I will be past the 'beginner' numbers at the end of cycle 3, assuming I don't plateau within the first 3 cycles (which I should not with n00b gains and my diet is damn good). If I do surpass these numbers, and am confident with my form after 15 weeks, three cycles, should I look at the possibility of moving on to All Pro's intermediate 1/2? Or would you recommend I stick out the simple beginner plan for at least the recommended 6-9 months?

Thanks in advance guys, again really enjoying this plan at the moment, wish I had found it and started lifting a long time ago!

Umm....

Bench/row should be about the same, I would not consider 15lbs an imbalance.
OHP should be 60% or more of your bench. If that starts hitting 50-55% you have a shoulder weakness, above 70% and you have a chest weakness.

As far as strength goals, allpro is effective till 10 reps of bw bench ,and 10 reps of 1.25-1.5x bw squats. Around that time that "you need more recovery and c) have DAMN GOOD form" wall shows up. Only beginners can go heavy 3x a week, or in allpro's case, be fatigued for the majority of the time.

As far as "beyond allpro" You have a few choices. You have "auto regulated" which i posted a link to a few posts back that should get about a year out of allpro. You have "novice" which is switching up to the first 3 lifts to 3 sets of 4-8 reps with the same 90 seconds or less rest (test day is still 24 reps total). You have greyskull LP which is a 2-3 year program. You have 5/3/1 which when properly programmed can be ran for life. Finally you have the true intermediate off season programs such as the allpro intermediate routines. The only down/up side to off season intermediate routines is they are only meant to be rotated out every 6-12 weeks, they are not sustainable.

[Hillsy89]

Umm....

Bench/row should be about the same, I would not consider 15lbs an imbalance.
OHP should be 60% or more of your bench. If that starts hitting 50-55% you have a shoulder weakness, above 70% and you have a chest weakness.

As far as strength goals, allpro is effective till 10 reps of bw bench ,and 10 reps of 1.25-1.5x bw squats. Around that time that "you need more recovery and c) have DAMN GOOD form" wall shows up. Only beginners can go heavy 3x a week, or in allpro's case, be fatigued for the majority of the time.

As far as "beyond allpro" You have a few choices. You have "auto regulated" which i posted a link to a few posts back that should get about a year out of allpro. You have "novice" which is switching up to the first 3 lifts to 3 sets of 4-8 reps with the same 90 seconds or less rest (test day is still 24 reps total). You have greyskull LP which is a 2-3 year program. You have 5/3/1 which when properly programmed can be ran for life. Finally you have the true intermediate off season programs such as the allpro intermediate routines. The only down/up side to off season intermediate routines is they are only meant to be rotated out every 6-12 weeks, they are not sustainable.

Thank you very much for the quick reply, there is so much information to absorb when starting out, I must remember the 80/20 rule. If the SBR takes me through to those weights at 10 reps then I should get a decent 5-6 cycles out of this. I'll check out the link you posted, and read through some of the other plans you have mentioned, I like to plan ahead if I need to buy new kit or change up my schedule.

Rep coming your way

[iMangles]

Umm....

Bench/row should be about the same, I would not consider 15lbs an imbalance.
OHP should be 60% or more of your bench. If that starts hitting 50-55% you have a shoulder weakness, above 70% and you have a chest weakness.

Just curious if you would modify the program in any way to correct these imbalances if they were present?

My Row and OHP is a little low compared to bench, but so is my squat, so I think its more to do with my bench being too high in comparison to everything else. Assuming this will likely correct itself over time as I am only on cycle 1. My squat has been much higher in the past.

[nightanole]

Just curious if you would modify the program in any way to correct these imbalances if they were present?

My Row and OHP is a little low compared to bench, but so is my squat, so I think its more to do with my bench being too high in comparison to everything else. Assuming this will likely correct itself over time as I am only on cycle 1. My squat has been much higher in the past.

The weakest lifts will adapt the fastest. Most people who start the program have never squatted in their lives, however lot have at least some mediocre benching experience.

After you pass 2 test days we can start adding accessory work, if needed, to fix any imbalances. Most people have never done any real back work and respond very well to allpro.

Odds are your bench will be slower gaining then the rest of your problem lifts, you may even stall on the bench within the first 3 cycles if you are so far along in your benching career that 10% is too fast.

Adding more volume (because thats all adding accessories are) may cause a stall so i do not recommend them early in the program. More volume means longer recovery time, and allpro is a fatigue based program. You work too close to failure and you will stall on this program.

[CleatHitch]

Hi,

First of all, it looks like a great program.

I need a strong focus in my forearms. Could it work to add wrist curls to the program, as I don't think they interfere with any other exercise, or will this program give them enough focus on their own?

Sorry about asking to add exercises, I know it's a recurrent question with the same answer, but I coudn't find a question about forearms and I really need to focus on them.

Thank you

[nightanole]

Hi,

First of all, it looks like a great program.

I need a strong focus in my forearms. Could it work to add wrist curls to the program, as I don't think they interfere with any other exercise, or will this program give them enough focus on their own?

Sorry about asking to add exercises, I know it's a recurrent question with the same answer, but I coudn't find a question about forearms and I really need to focus on them.

Thank you

You are getting alot of grip work on the standard program between the SLDL/row/curl. Since the curl is fluff work, you can sub it for another variant. The top 2 in my book for forearm meat is the hammer curl and close grip chinup.

Downside to hammer grip curl = deloads the bicep
downside to close grip chin= may cause to much fatigue buildup in the row and cause a stall. And for me personally, too much causes my shoulders to fatigue in the squat and roll forward.

Upside to hammer grip curl = elbow prehab of the gods for bench monkeys
Upside of the close grip = best arm meat builder out there, and hits the parts of the back that are not hit during the row.

[DrakHarr]

Hey night. I'm not running this anymore, but but am still on a novice. A loooong time ago my rows were lacking and you had me an god heavy pendalays. Months layer I have the opposite. My bench is lagging terribly behind my pendalays even with the bench being 5 reps and Pendalay 8. Was it push presses you recommended as an accessory?

[nightanole]

Hey night. I'm not running this anymore, but but am still on a novice. A loooong time ago my rows were lacking and you had me an god heavy pendalays. Months layer I have the opposite. My bench is lagging terribly behind my pendalays even with the bench being 5 reps and Pendalay 8. Was it push presses you recommended as an accessory?

Heavy push presses are an accessory to a stalled OHP under certain conditions, form fixing/bracing for example.

A stalled bench may be cured from either a heavier reduced rom version of the bench, or a variant that breaks up the eccentric/concentric sections of the lift. This fixes stalls caused by biological accommodation (doing the extact same varaint with the same weight/reps for an extended period). They do not fix problems such as form, the inability to build up tension (lose tightness at the bottom), or lack of leg drive/bracing.

So if you just want to try some stuff as see what sticks, i would first adjust the weight of your standard bench so you gain or lose at least 4 reps. So if you are doing 5 reps, deload so your AMRAP is 9-10 reps. If you are stalled at 10 reps, add enough to drop you down to 4-5 reps. There is a good chance you will add a few reps in a few weeks at the new weight.

The second thing you can do is change the bench variant. Switch to pushing off of pins, or switch to floor press. Both of those will break up the eccentric/concentric and reduce rom, and will be a little easier on your connecting tissue vs doing pause reps.

And if i were you, the very first thing i would do is make my bench grip width the same as my row.

[DrakHarr]

Heavy push presses are an accessory to a stalled OHP under certain conditions, form fixing/bracing for example.

A stalled bench may be cured from either a heavier reduced rom version of the bench, or a variant that breaks up the eccentric/concentric sections of the lift. This fixes stalls caused by biological accommodation (doing the extact same varaint with the same weight/reps for an extended period). They do not fix problems such as form, the inability to build up tension (lose tightness at the bottom), or lack of leg drive/bracing.

So if you just want to try some stuff as see what sticks, i would first adjust the weight of your standard bench so you gain or lose at least 4 reps. So if you are doing 5 reps, deload so your AMRAP is 9-10 reps. If you are stalled at 10 reps, add enough to drop you down to 4-5 reps. There is a good chance you will add a few reps in a few weeks at the new weight.

The second thing you can do is change the bench variant. Switch to pushing off of pins, or switch to floor press. Both of those will break up the eccentric/concentric and reduce rom, and will be a little easier on your connecting tissue vs doing pause reps.

And if i were you, the very first thing i would do is make my bench grip width the same as my row.

So I should widen my bench grip.. that's probably true. My pendalay grip is wide and I get 8 reps 3 sets at 160, while my body weight is around 135, but my bench is not nearly that high (it is over body weight). I'm coming to the end of novice, too, is part of it probably, though I haven't bulked yet. Alright, I'll see about changing that and upping the reps, sounds like a plan to me! Thanks!

[rosssss224]

Hey, thanks for the program

so far my heavy days are:

SQ - 70kg
BP - 55kg
OHP - 30kg
DL - 80kg
RW - 40kg
BC - 20 kg

This is my first cycle. So far so good but on my 4th week (this morning) i failed on the last rep of the last set of bench.

Is it a case of too much weight? carry on as normal and see if I can manage next weeks reps?

(Due to a busy gym I performed squat, bench and ohp last and didnt have enough sleep)

Thanks

[gaz1980]

5'9, now done to 162 lbs today, down from 175lbs at the start of June (trying to cut to 10-12% BF before a slow sensible bulk as I don't like having fat round my midsection). I've done AP before for a few cycles but now doing it on 6-10 with 3 sets.

This week I can't get to the gym (did a 10 mile run this morning). Should I just have a complete week off, or can anybody recommend a good bodyweight program I can do from home just this week. I'll pick it back up again next week Mon/Wed/Fri.

[LeBryan]

You said 100g of fat/protein. Is that 100g combined for both? Or is it 100g protein and 100 g fat? Just wondering, shouldn't protein be higher? I'm already finalizing my diet plan. Thanks again for all the help.

[nightanole]

Hey, thanks for the program

so far my heavy days are:

SQ - 70kg
BP - 55kg
OHP - 30kg
DL - 80kg
RW - 40kg
BC - 20 kg

This is my first cycle. So far so good but on my 4th week (this morning) i failed on the last rep of the last set of bench.

Is it a case of too much weight? carry on as normal and see if I can manage next weeks reps?

(Due to a busy gym I performed squat, bench and ohp last and didnt have enough sleep)

Thanks

You just failed because you changed the order. For future reference, the big 3 (bench/squat/row) need to be done first in no particular order.

[nightanole]

5'9, now done to 162 lbs today, down from 175lbs at the start of June (trying to cut to 10-12% BF before a slow sensible bulk as I don't like having fat round my midsection). I've done AP before for a few cycles but now doing it on 6-10 with 3 sets.

This week I can't get to the gym (did a 10 mile run this morning). Should I just have a complete week off, or can anybody recommend a good bodyweight program I can do from home just this week. I'll pick it back up again next week Mon/Wed/Fri.

Id just reset to week 9 when you get back.

You said 100g of fat/protein. Is that 100g combined for both? Or is it 100g protein and 100 g fat? Just wondering, shouldn't protein be higher? I'm already finalizing my diet plan. Thanks again for all the help.

100g of fat = 900 cals
100g of protein = 400 cals
200-300g of carbs is 800-1200 cals

Combined the base diet is 2100-2500 cals.

Protein is the worst fuel source to perform off of, and at this low of a calorie count/TDEE you can not go very high protein and expect to perform. Once your TDEE is 3500-4000 it will be impossible to get less than 200 grams of protein with whole foods.

[X1jess]

Hi, I started the biceps curl at 20 lb and I am currently curling 55 lb. Before I went up to 55 lb I was using the straight bar, but now the higher weights don't use the straight bar, they use the e-z bar. I don't know if I have to get used to the different grip position but I find it a lot more harder to curl with the e-z bar. Any advise on how to adjust to it? Or should I switch the curls to a cable curl?
I do feel my biceps aren't growing

[hoverboy]

Hey, I'm just starting my 4th cycle of this, as well as doing HIIT twice a week, and I want to make sure I have my diet in order. I'm 6'4, 230 pounds, and going by the advice in the nutrition thread that's stickied in this thread, I need to be eating almost 4000 calories a day to gain mass. I just wanted to check in and make sure I'm understanding the calculations correctly, because that feels like an enormous amount of food, and I'm constantly full. Thanks for your help, and thanks for posting this program!

[nightanole]

Hi, I started the biceps curl at 20 lb and I am currently curling 55 lb. Before I went up to 55 lb I was using the straight bar, but now the higher weights don't use the straight bar, they use the e-z bar. I don't know if I have to get used to the different grip position but I find it a lot more harder to curl with the e-z bar. Any advise on how to adjust to it? Or should I switch the curls to a cable curl?
I do feel my biceps aren't growing

EZ bar deloads the bicep and loads the forearm. If you are trying to isolate the bicep, the ez bar is not a good option.

The best bicep movement seeming to be an incline supination curl. It has the greatest rom, and wont cause bicep tendon problems like preacher curls will. If you can find a cable version that would be perfect since it would keep constant tension, vs dumb bells that are easy at the top and bottom of the lift.

Hey, I'm just starting my 4th cycle of this, as well as doing HIIT twice a week, and I want to make sure I have my diet in order. I'm 6'4, 230 pounds, and going by the advice in the nutrition thread that's stickied in this thread, I need to be eating almost 4000 calories a day to gain mass. I just wanted to check in and make sure I'm understanding the calculations correctly, because that feels like an enormous amount of food, and I'm constantly full. Thanks for your help, and thanks for posting this program!

I posted the base diet, its mins are 2100-2500 cals for starters. That is the min for 5.8 150lb people etc. At 6.4 and well over 200lbs i most need 3500 cals to maintain once they are beyond novice and using body weight and above for working weight on most lifts.

If you have food log you should know roughly what you eat to maintain. The cal calculators are never right and most have people eating like horses. The calcs are "more right" for people who have most of their natty gains (80-90% of life time gains), not joe six pack.

Since you are a big bigger, and are having the fullness problem, i would take the base diet, and bump fats and protein to 150 grams each.

So 150g of fat is 1350 cals
150g of protein is 600 cals
and the same 200-300g of carbs is 800-1200 cals

That makes a new base diet of 2750-3150 which seems more inline for a large beginner. You can adjust 250 cals every 2 weeks till the scale starts moving in the direction you are looking for.

To give you a clue, my TDEE is well over 2600 and im 75lbs your junior.

[hoverboy]

I posted the base diet, its mins are 2100-2500 cals for starters. That is the min for 5.8 150lb people etc. At 6.4 and well over 200lbs i most need 3500 cals to maintain once they are beyond novice and using body weight and above for working weight on most lifts.

If you have food log you should know roughly what you eat to maintain. The cal calculators are never right and most have people eating like horses. The calcs are "more right" for people who have most of their natty gains (80-90% of life time gains), not joe six pack.

Since you are a big bigger, and are having the fullness problem, i would take the base diet, and bump fats and protein to 150 grams each.

So 150g of fat is 1350 cals
150g of protein is 600 cals
and the same 200-300g of carbs is 800-1200 cals

That makes a new base diet of 2750-3150 which seems more inline for a large beginner. You can adjust 250 cals every 2 weeks till the scale starts moving in the direction you are looking for.

To give you a clue, my TDEE is well over 2600 and im 75lbs your junior.

Thanks for the input! I've been making good strength gains and put on about 10 pounds in the last two and a half months, but I've definitely wanted to take a more guided approach to my diet instead of the haphazard "eat until it hurts" strategy I've been going with so far.

[teabone13]

hi nightanole,

just finished test day on C1W5 and it was brutal. barely made all my reps and failed OHP miserably (12 reps, 8 reps @ 60lbs). since i had such a hard time with all the lifts, would you recommend taking a stab at +10% or redoing C1? if redo, do i start back at W1?

as for losing bf%, i am eating about 1900-2000 calories (120 protein, 85 fat, and 170 carbs) and i do notice my arms are bigger/slight more defined. however, i do not appear to be losing and fat in any areas of my body (belly, legs, arms) i am not delusional and expecting a huge drop, but the way my pants fit and just looking in the mirror, i seemed to have lost zero bf. i am 5'10" and 165.

much appreciation for any advice.

[nightanole]

hi nightanole,

just finished test day on C1W5 and it was brutal. barely made all my reps and failed OHP miserably (12 reps, 8 reps @ 60lbs). since i had such a hard time with all the lifts, would you recommend taking a stab at +10% or redoing C1? if redo, do i start back at W1?

as for losing bf%, i am eating about 1900-2000 calories (120 protein, 85 fat, and 170 carbs) and i do notice my arms are bigger/slight more defined. however, i do not appear to be losing and fat in any areas of my body (belly, legs, arms) i am not delusional and expecting a huge drop, but the way my pants fit and just looking in the mirror, i seemed to have lost zero bf. i am 5'10" and 165.

much appreciation for any advice.

on light day try to do 1 set of 10 with the new weight. If you can you are gold.
As for the arm thing, your muscles are hyper-compensating your glycogen stores as a emergency respond to the new stress. Once they are used to allpro they will deflate down to normal. You are basically walking around pumped all the time because the muscles are protecting themselves from pulls.

[teabone13]

on light day try to do 1 set of 10 with the new weight. If you can you are gold.
As for the arm thing, your muscles are hyper-compensating your glycogen stores as a emergency respond to the new stress. Once they are used to allpro they will deflate down to normal. You are basically walking around pumped all the time because the muscles are protecting themselves from pulls.

🙏🏼ty

follow up to the bf% question:

I know you have stated that losing bf% down to 13% will take 2 cycles (I'm starting at around 18-20%), but having lost virtually no BF in cycle 1, can I reasonably expect to hit this target at the end of cycle 2? I believe I am hitting 1900-2000 consistently.

[nightanole]

����ty

follow up to the bf% question:

I know you have stated that losing bf% down to 13% will take 2 cycles (I'm starting at around 18-20%), but having lost virtually no BF in cycle 1, can I reasonably expect to hit this target at the end of cycle 2? I believe I am hitting 1900-2000 consistently.

Lets say you did not just make a up a completely new diet, and 1900-2000 was your TDEE just sitting on the couch and working. Just starting allpro should be good for about a .5lb per week cut. Combine that with the recomended 3x10k jogs per week, and that should be good for another .5lbs per week. Combined that is 10lbs over 2 cycles, which is 5-7.5% of most humans, which drops someone from 18-20% to 13%.

The problem arises when the calories are so low that you can not perform, then you just never change. That is why i have a min diet, and then the lifter can just add cardio and increase their TDEE so they still have a decent amount of nutrition going in and caloric turnover.