Ongoing Study Discussion Thread - Nutrition, Training, Health etc.

[blue9steel]

Massive new study

Great find! As usual on spread.

Noticed this "In the HLF vs HLC diets, respectively, the mean 12-month macronutrient distributions were 48% vs 30% for carbohydrates, 29% vs 45% for fat, and 21% vs 23% for protein." I translated those numbers to my own requirements and the low fat diet does indeed appear low at roughly 60g (0.3g/lb) but the low carb diet doesn't seem that low at 140g (0.7g/lb), obviously anecdotal numbers aren't the same as population but it helps put a little perspective on it.

[broganoff]

Great find! As usual on spread.

Noticed this "In the HLF vs HLC diets, respectively, the mean 12-month macronutrient distributions were 48% vs 30% for carbohydrates, 29% vs 45% for fat, and 21% vs 23% for protein." I translated those numbers to my own requirements and the low fat diet does indeed appear low at roughly 60g (0.3g/lb) but the low carb diet doesn't seem that low at 140g (0.7g/lb), obviously anecdotal numbers aren't the same as population but it helps put a little perspective on it.

Yes good find. The paleketio crowd would call BS for the carbs not being low enough while being simultaneously conflicted that people lost weight with a calorie deficit. Lol

However, looks like the carbs were low enough to be in ketosis initially, and low-carb enough (~100/day) to be considered low carb for practical purposes. From the examine article: "During the first two months of the study, the low-fat group was instructed to consume only 20 g of fat per day and the low-carb group only 20 g of carbs per day. . . . . . . by month 3, the low-fat group was already consuming an average of 42 g of fat per day, whereas the low-carb group was consuming an average of 96.6 g of carbs per day."

The only possible benefit of low-carb appears to be higher HDL and lower triglicerides, although LDL was also higher, so maybe it's a wash? From what i understand, the HDL to triglicerides ratio is a better overall indicator.

[dashdash89]

Massive new study

Effect of Low-Fat vs Low-Carbohydrate Diet on 12-Month Weight Loss in Overweight Adults and the Association With Genotype Pattern or Insulin Secretion

"In this 12-month weight loss diet study, there was no significant difference in weight change between a healthy low-fat diet vs a healthy low-carbohydrate diet, and neither genotype pattern nor baseline insulin secretion was associated with the dietary effects on weight loss. In the context of these 2 common weightloss diet approaches, neither of the 2 hypothesized predisposing factors was helpful in identifying which diet was better for whom."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...?redirect=true

Article: https://examine.com/nutrition/low-fa...r-weight-loss/

Sadly some will likely continue to profit off this idea for a while

[Mrpb]

Yes good find. The paleketio crowd would call BS for the carbs not being low enough while being simultaneously conflicted that people lost weight with a calorie deficit. Lol

True, it's not a ketogenic diet perse. But it's yet another study that showed no difference between low carb and low fat. Studies comparing ketogenic diets with low fat diets have shown the same. That's what I would tell the paleo crowd

[R5GT]

Was composition measured? i always thought that low fat = low test = more likely to experience muscle loss.

[Heisman2]

Well, this one is interesting. Implies the perception of exercising well relative to others confers a significant benefit to mortality independent of actual exercise. Haven't read the whole thing (and I don't plan to), but if this link is true it has immense implications.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28726475

[rml27v]

In conclusion, WDED was associated with suppressed RMR and catabolic markers in male endurance athletes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29405793
https://www.outsideonline.com/228463...-big-breakfast
Spreading calories evenly through the day was associated with better hormonal response. The article suggests that this way of eating may be better for recovery from training. Don't know if this is relevant to bb.

[Mrpb]

I posted about this new study in the supplement section: i****lto-oligosaccharides have the same effect on blood sugar as dextrose.

These i****lto-oligosaccharides are often used in "low carb, high fiber" protein bars and labeled as fiber in the nutritional content.

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1545465931

In conclusion, WDED was associated with suppressed RMR and catabolic markers in male endurance athletes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29405793
https://www.outsideonline.com/228463...-big-breakfast
Spreading calories evenly through the day was associated with better hormonal response. The article suggests that this way of eating may be better for recovery from training. Don't know if this is relevant to bb.

Thanks for the share. From what I've seen in the literature eating carbohydrates somewhere before training is probably a good idea to maximise training performance.

[Heisman2]

This goes along nicely with the above study regarding i****lto-oligosaccharides: http://easacademy.org/trainer-resour...igosaccharides

[boo99]

Mrpb
Have you read Brad's latest pm the Mind-Muscle connection?

Interesting.

After 8 weeks of consistent training, subjects who used a mind-muscle condition had almost double the muscle growth in the biceps brachii compared to those using an external focus (12.4% vs 6.9%, respectively). Alternatively, muscle growth for the quadriceps was similar between conditions.

http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/t...mizing-growth/

[rml27v]

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2016256
I thought this was very interesting: loss of FFM that results from dieting or sedentarity should be viewed as a risk factor for weight regain and increased fatness not only because of the impact of the FFM deficit in lowering the maintenance energy requirement but also because of the body’s attempt to restore FFM by overeating—a phenomenon referred to as ‘collateral fattening’.

[Heisman2]

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2016256
I thought this was very interesting: loss of FFM that results from dieting or sedentarity should be viewed as a risk factor for weight regain and increased fatness not only because of the impact of the FFM deficit in lowering the maintenance energy requirement but also because of the body’s attempt to restore FFM by overeating—a phenomenon referred to as ‘collateral fattening’.

Good find. I haven't read this one yet. There are several other studies that have examined this over the years that I have read. This is the number 1 reason I advocate so strongly to people in real life to keep protein high and do resistance training while losing bodyweight and I explain to them that to help mitigate the hormonal and metabolic changes that occur with both fat mass loss and FFM loss we absolutely have to maintain our FFM. Studies over time have shown that when we regain weight after weight loss we regain fat faster than FFM and we continue to regain weight until we have restored our prior FFM, thus overshooting our initial weight. It's critically important to maintain FFM while dieting for this reason.

[blue9steel]

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2016256
I thought this was very interesting: loss of FFM that results from dieting or sedentarity should be viewed as a risk factor for weight regain and increased fatness not only because of the impact of the FFM deficit in lowering the maintenance energy requirement but also because of the body’s attempt to restore FFM by overeating—a phenomenon referred to as ‘collateral fattening’.

Great find, really enjoyed that one. Seems to tie together a number of things I was aware of but wasn't sure exactly why they happened. As I was reading through I spotted something interesting that was a bit of a side note but seems pretty important:

"Furthermore, there is evidence that the amount of sleep plays an important role in the preservation of FFM during periods of reduced caloric intake, such that lack of sufficient sleep may compromise the efficacy of typical dietary interventions for weight loss. In a randomized crossover study,19 exposure of overweight middle-aged adults to 2 weeks of a reduced calorie diet combined with sleep restriction (5.5 vs 8.5 h of night time sleep opportunity) produced a catabolic state characterized by a significant decrease in the loss of FM (1.4 vs 0.6 kg) and considerably increased loss of FFM (1.5 vs 2.4 kg; P<0.01). These greater losses in FFM were accompanied not only by changes in EE and a shift in relative substrate utilization towards diminished fat oxidation, but also by increased hunger.19"

[Heisman2]

Yep, lack of sleep can strongly negatively impact body composition goals: https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/502825

[rml27v]

This information could really be useful to coaches and competitors. This might be used as an indicator for loss of muscle mass on the cut. Imo after the contest if you really can't stop binging this could mean that u lost a significant amount of muscle? Maybe...

[Heisman2]

This information could really be useful to coaches and competitors. This might be used as an indicator for loss of muscle mass on the cut. Imo after the contest if you really can't stop binging this could mean that u lost a significant amount of muscle? Maybe...

That is trickier because far more than just skeletal muscle is lost as the fat free mass component when dieting down for a competition, and getting to ridiculously low bodyfat % levels brings its own host of abnormalities.

[rml27v]

That is trickier because far more than just skeletal muscle is lost as the fat free mass component when dieting down for a competition, and getting to ridiculously low bodyfat % levels brings its own host of abnormalities.

Yes, there are a lot of variables so we really can't conlude anything.

[AdamWW]

YouTube Interview Discussing MPS. Fairly interesting/entertaining if nothing else:

[boo99]

^^^Jorn is the man

Thanx Adam bro

[AdamWW]

^^^Jorn is the man

Thanx Adam bro

I really enjoyed how he responded and assessed various points of view. He seems very true to the scientific process and not making assumptions despite having a pretty focused field.

[boo99]

I really enjoyed how he responded and assessed various points of view. He seems very true to the scientific process and not making assumptions despite having a pretty focused field.

I agree 100%

Last summer when he published his work which included Leucine info, I emailed him questions and he wrote back with his answers

[AdamWW]

Part 2 of the video series above featuring Trommelen. I really enjoyed this one.

Talks about Intermittent Fasting, Protein Quality as it pertains to dosages per day/feeding, 'refractory' periods, timing, and other fun stuff.

[AdamWW]

Adding to the above... Layne also posted a new video which was very interesting as well:

[boo99]

^^Thanks for the links Adam

[AdamWW]

^^Thanks for the links Adam

Fo sho!

[dashdash89]

Recent review of evidence for omega-3 supplementation and heart health doesn't find much:

http://cochranelibrary-wiley.com/doi...3177.pub3/full

Curious what a large review such as this would've found on quality of life (e.g., neural functioning)

[Mrpb]

Eating more bread, chocolate and fruit to lose weight?

"An ad libitum diet that excludes six refined foods (margarine, vegetable oils, butter, cream, processed meat, and sugary drinks).

Average weight loss was 4.8 kg (p<0.001), representing 5.6% of their initial body weight. Among completers (51%), the average weight loss was 5.5 kg (p<0.001), and 56% had a reduction of at least 5% of their initial body weight. Among diabetics, weight loss was similar to nondiabetics, and mean HbA1c level decreased by 1% (p=0.001) without modification in glucose-lowering medications. A higher intake of bread, dairy products, chocolate, and fresh fruits was the typical trend in dietary changes reported by completers."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...?dopt=Abstract

Sounds interesting I thought. I have not read the full text.

Recent review of evidence for omega-3 supplementation and heart health doesn't find much:

http://cochranelibrary-wiley.com/doi...3177.pub3/full

Curious what a large review such as this would've found on quality of life (e.g., neural functioning)

Some people like Lyle have claimed that the dosage was too low and that's why it didn't work. I have my doubts personally but I'm not well read on the subject.

[Mrpb]

Overfeeding study in overweight subjects: Saturated Fat Is More Metabolically Harmful for the Human Liver Than Unsaturated Fat or Simple Sugars

CONCLUSIONS Macronutrient composition of excess energy influences pathways of IHTG: CARB increases DNL, while SAT increases and UNSAT decreases lipolysis. SAT induced the greatest increase in IHTG, insulin resistance, and harmful ceramides. Decreased intakes of SAT could be beneficial in reducing IHTG and the associated risk of diabetes.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/41/8/1732

[blue9steel]

Overfeeding study in overweight subjects: Saturated Fat Is More Metabolically Harmful for the Human Liver Than Unsaturated Fat or Simple Sugars

Great find, on spread as usual. Both the changes in bodyweight and visceral/subcutaneous fat seem to suggest that overfeeding with monounsaturated fats is somewhat more advantageous than other choices for bodybuilding outcomes.

[AdamWW]

I'm kind of curious: do saturated fats offer any independent benefits to humans? I know plenty of foods which contain SFA's are health-promoting, but SFA's to my knowledge aren't an essential nutrient... nor have they been shown to actually have a benefit in and of themselves... but I could be wrong.