How Many Olympia titles should Dorian Yates have won?

[E60M5]

The only flaw Dorian had untill 97 was a disfigured biceps. That affects one pose, the front double bi, only in the pic i posted his biceps is fine and he murders Ray. After 93 aside from the one pose Dorian's symmetry is fine so you have no argument there.

Ray did have a flaw. He was smaller. You can compare the two men all you like but it all comes down to the fact that Dorian is bigger in all areas.

Thats why even though Dorian is my favourite Bodybuilder i cannot argue that he would beat Coleman, because Coleman had more muscle. Its the same reason you cant argue that Ray beats Dorian.

Was waiting for that! DY simply made Shawn look like he should have been the 202.

The video of Shawn Posing in 99 is epic, Such an awesome physique, But he is tiny compared to the rest. Posing on his own he looked awesome, As soon as the comparisons start his biggest weakness comes out. He is Tiny. Thats the only issue. if he looked the same but 50lb heavier, he would have been the GOAT simple. But he wasn't/ He was too small!

Kevin Levrone to me had him beat but his back simply wasnt enough. Shame really as he looked awesome. When he is posing on his own, you think what Back flaws? But when he is next to DY who has one of the best backs of all time you see the issue with his back

Shawn had a flawless looking physique, he just needed to be 1.5 times bigger! Hence Dy winning with his insane grainy condition and freaky mass.

[AnarkyLost]

I see VERY little rear deltoid development on Dorian there.

Alrite now you just confirmed you've been trolling all along with this stupid ****ing statement. I'm done with this thread I love debating this stuff but when you say something trivial like that.....

[lancs_hotpot]

That's funny because Dorian himself admitted that he was holding water in '94.

He may have been, but if anything it made him look bigger and fuller whilst also maintaining good enough condition to beat everyone else.



This pic says it all. If Dorian himself said he was holding water here then great, he still beats Ray for Development and sheer size. Nothing wrong with his shape or his condition either. Cannot understand why anyone would think 94 was anything other than a nailed on win.

[lancs_hotpot]

This is just another example of how good he was in 94.

2:00 - Dillett, Yates and Levrone pose together, three massive men. Watch as Ray joins in and just shows how small he is in comparison. Thats for the Ray lovers.

5:01 - For everyone else this is Dorian standing next to Ray and Levrone. Bigger, more conditioned, more developed overall. Bigger waist of course, but means nothing. Levrone and Ray just have tiny waists. Ronnie Coleman had a bigger waist than everyone he beat most of his career and it mattered none.

[abdus]

I see VERY little rear deltoid development on Dorian there.

As a 'judge', is that the only thing you saw in this pic?

[mikieson]

This is just another example of how good he was in 94.

2:00 - Dillett, Yates and Levrone pose together, three massive men. Watch as Ray joins in and just shows how small he is in comparison. Thats for the Ray lovers.

5:01 - For everyone else this is Dorian standing next to Ray and Levrone. Bigger, more conditioned, more developed overall. Bigger waist of course, but means nothing. Levrone and Ray just have tiny waists. Ronnie Coleman had a bigger waist than everyone he beat most of his career and it mattered none.

This video actually goes against what I think you ? "if im not mistaken" and lots of other people here say about Ray. If he is so "small" and "miniature" compared to the other competitors he sure proved them wrong by coming in 2nd in the Olympia leaving all the other monsters with their heads down.

IMO...Ray and Levrone look better than Yates. I dont care how many titles Yates wins with his wide waist or with his blown out arm or bloated gut. That does not make him the best.

I like smaller waists, longer torsos, clean lines and better over all shape and form. Yates has great work ethics, kills it in the gym, and deserved a couple of his wins no doubt. BUT over all he single handedly killed the athstetics of bodybuilding and brought in the "mass monster" era.

AND yes as much as I like Ronnie Coleman and think he is the GOAT...I still dont like his over all structure as much as other bbers.

[AnarkyLost]

This video actually goes against what I think you ? "if im not mistaken" and lots of other people here say about Ray. If he is so "small" and "miniature" compared to the other competitors he sure proved them wrong by coming in 2nd in the Olympia leaving all the other monsters with their heads down.

IMO...Ray and Levrone look better than Yates. I dont care how many titles Yates wins with his wide waist or with his blown out arm or bloated gut. That does not make him the best.

I like smaller waists, longer torsos, clean lines and better over all shape and form. Yates has great work ethics, kills it in the gym, and deserved a couple of his wins no doubt. BUT over all he single handedly killed the athstetics of bodybuilding and brought in the "mass monster" era.

AND yes as much as I like Ronnie Coleman and think he is the GOAT...I still dont like his over all structure as much as other bbers.

I'm getting tired of people like you saying Dorian has a bloated fat gut...andthen you point to pics when he's relaxed.....yea his stomach looked really bloated and wide here in 94.



Snap from his posing routine.



Yep you guys sure do know how to judge.....this is why most fans are wrong about alot of **** when it comes to judging a bodybuilder.

[be4st]

DylanDetrick... you are very good at trying to pinpoint the very few, not to mention, insignificant flaws that Dorian has... Let me tell you something.. if you are complaining about his gut, why don't you call out Ronnie Coleman on some of his later Olympia victories and Jay Cutler, current Mr. Olympia?

Very little rear delt development? You gotta be kiddin me brah.. Yeah that's a hell of a flaw... what about Shawn Ray who was significantly smaller than Yates? Did you take that into consideration?

People keep whining about size but the fact of the matter is size is a huge part of a competition. Look at the past Mr. Olympias; they all dwarfed their competitors. Arnold, Ronnie, Jay, Dorian, Haney...... Dexter won that one year but where is he at now? He's not getting anywhere...why? cuz he ain't gettin any bigger. Don't get me wrong, if Dex was Jay's size with the way he looks now, he'd be Mr. O easy. Jay was significantly off in conditioning which allowed Dex to take the sandow home.

If you really think about it, there is a reason size and conditioning outweigh all the other criteria in bodybuilding; they don't come easy. Size and conditioning are two factors that really demonstrate the competitor's effort. Symmetry, insertions, muscle bellies, yea they are all important as well, but mostly come from genetics. You can't change the way your abs look and most of your symmetry issues are genetic. Don't get me wrong, you can make some tweaks here and there but for the most part you aren't going to be able to make mindblowing differences.



Btw, these statements are made despite the fact that I admire Shawn Ray.

[lancs_hotpot]

This video actually goes against what I think you ? "if im not mistaken" and lots of other people here say about Ray. If he is so "small" and "miniature" compared to the other competitors he sure proved them wrong by coming in 2nd in the Olympia leaving all the other monsters with their heads down.

IMO...Ray and Levrone look better than Yates. I dont care how many titles Yates wins with his wide waist or with his blown out arm or bloated gut. That does not make him the best.

I like smaller waists, longer torsos, clean lines and better over all shape and form. Yates has great work ethics, kills it in the gym, and deserved a couple of his wins no doubt. BUT over all he single handedly killed the athstetics of bodybuilding and brought in the "mass monster" era.

AND yes as much as I like Ronnie Coleman and think he is the GOAT...I still dont like his over all structure as much as other bbers.

Yates didnt kill aestetics bodybuilding did. The point of bodybuilding is to build muscular mass. Sooner or later someone will come along like Yates or Ronnie or Cutler who can build more muscle than others. And again you are talking about what you prefer but in bodybuilding terms Dorian was better.

[Whey Hey]

DylanDetrick... you are very good at trying to pinpoint the very few, not to mention, insignificant flaws that Dorian has... Let me tell you something.. if you are complaining about his gut, why don't you call out Ronnie Coleman on some of his later Olympia victories and Jay Cutler, current Mr. Olympia?


.

Thats one of the things Jay doesnt have, a big gut.

[BaGeL23]

I can't believe all the hate towards Yates in this thread...his back alone deserved him at least 3 Olympia titles. This kind of ridiculous development has only been matched by Ronnie and Stubbs.

[orangeking]

I can't believe all the hate towards Yates in this thread...his back alone deserved him at least 3 Olympia titles. This kind of ridiculous development has only been matched by Ronnie and Stubbs.

LOL
LOL
LOL

Are you KIDDING me?

[lancs_hotpot]

LOL
LOL
LOL

Are you KIDDING me?

Hes basically spot on mate, apart from the fact that Stubbs' back doesnt come close to Dorian's standard.

[BaGeL23]

LOL
LOL
LOL

Are you KIDDING me?

...no. what's your problem?

[DylanDetrick]

I can't believe all the hate towards Yates in this thread...his back alone deserved him at least 3 Olympia titles. This kind of ridiculous development has only been matched by Ronnie and Stubbs.

So he should have won 3 Olympia's solely because of his back?

Should Tom Platz have won solely because of his legs?

Why does the back seem to be of more importance than anything else?

[AnarkyLost]

So he should have won 3 Olympia's solely because of his back?

Should Tom Platz have won solely because of his legs?

Why does the back seem to be of more importance than anything else?

No one respond to him b/c when you actually show him comparision pics that demonstrate why Dorian wins he'll change the topic to sonmething else like....rear delt development and completely ignore the ownage in the pic.

[DylanDetrick]

No one respond to him b/c when you actually show him comparision pics that demonstrate why Dorian wins he'll change the topic to sonmething else like....rear delt development and completely ignore the ownage in the pic.

Not quite, just making an observation.

Dorian does not win that pose IMO, Shawn is more complete and has better separation and detail plus better condition. Dorian is bigger and wider.

[DylanDetrick]

As a 'judge', is that the only thing you saw in this pic?

No, just making an observation.

[DylanDetrick]

DylanDetrick... you are very good at trying to pinpoint the very few, not to mention, insignificant flaws that Dorian has... Let me tell you something.. if you are complaining about his gut, why don't you call out Ronnie Coleman on some of his later Olympia victories and Jay Cutler, current Mr. Olympia?

Very little rear delt development? You gotta be kiddin me brah.. Yeah that's a hell of a flaw... what about Shawn Ray who was significantly smaller than Yates? Did you take that into consideration?

People keep whining about size but the fact of the matter is size is a huge part of a competition. Look at the past Mr. Olympias; they all dwarfed their competitors. Arnold, Ronnie, Jay, Dorian, Haney...... Dexter won that one year but where is he at now? He's not getting anywhere...why? cuz he ain't gettin any bigger. Don't get me wrong, if Dex was Jay's size with the way he looks now, he'd be Mr. O easy. Jay was significantly off in conditioning which allowed Dex to take the sandow home.

If you really think about it, there is a reason size and conditioning outweigh all the other criteria in bodybuilding; they don't come easy. Size and conditioning are two factors that really demonstrate the competitor's effort. Symmetry, insertions, muscle bellies, yea they are all important as well, but mostly come from genetics. You can't change the way your abs look and most of your symmetry issues are genetic. Don't get me wrong, you can make some tweaks here and there but for the most part you aren't going to be able to make mindblowing differences.



Btw, these statements are made despite the fact that I admire Shawn Ray.

Dorian certainly has more than 'very flew" flaws, he has several.

Insignificant flaws?

How can that be?

The guy with the fewest flaws should win, and since no body part is more important than another, than rear delts shouldn't be "insignificant", if it's part of your body and you don't have it, then that is significant.

You seem to forget that Bodybuilding is balance.

And I don't buy that argument you made in the last paragraph, although you can't really change your shape or structure or insertions, like you said.

But so what?

Whether it's genetic or not, it's still part of your physique and part of the criteria so if you don't have those things, you should be marked down for it, period.

[mikieson]

Dylan, you talk to much, maybe you should just shut up, listen to some of these older guys who know the sport more then you, and come back once eyour testies drop and you're a man.

he won 6 mr. o's get over it man, the majority wins.

O.J. Simpson was found innocent...Does that make the majority always correct?

[Whey Hey]

O.J. Simpson was found innocent...Does that make the majority always correct?

Yeah well all your posts related to Dorian are bias, COMPLETELY, so how about you actually give a proper objective opinion instead of all your subjective crap.

Also, it makes me feel good your red, finally

[Diablomeister]

O.J. Simpson was found innocent...Does that make the majority always correct?

it was in fact the minority that said he didnt do it, because the majority knew he was guilty, hence the shock of the verdict.

i deleted my post, because I really don't care, this thread should have been dead already lol.

[be4st]

Dorian certainly has more than 'very flew" flaws, he has several.

Insignificant flaws?

How can that be?

The guy with the fewest flaws should win, and since no body part is more important than another, than rear delts shouldn't be "insignificant", if it's part of your body and you don't have it, then that is significant.

You seem to forget that Bodybuilding is balance.

And I don't buy that argument you made in the last paragraph, although you can't really change your shape or structure or insertions, like you said.

But so what?

Whether it's genetic or not, it's still part of your physique and part of the criteria so if you don't have those things, you should be marked down for it, period.

Wrong. Certain body parts are more important than others. Frank McGrath's godlike forearms are not going to help him place ahead of guys with better wheels than him. Yes, everything is taken into consideration but some factors are more significant than others. Okay...Dorian "lacked rear delt development" but his back was far more developed than Ray and yes the judges like that more. No, that does not mean I am not considering the balance in bodybuilding. Point is your criticism about Dorian's weak rear delt (which quite honestly I don't see) does not matter because that is not enough to outweigh the domination Yates has over Ray in all other aspects...

Your last statement is irrelevant because I never said you don't get marked down for them. I said those factors are important as well. clearly you missed the point...

Again, don't get me wrong, I love Shawn Ray...but put him next to Dorian and he's just a child...

[mikieson]

Yeah well all your posts related to Dorian are bias, COMPLETELY, so how about you actually give a proper objective opinion instead of all your subjective crap.

Also, it makes me feel good your red, finally

Ive been in the red for a long long time dumbarss and could care less. I speak my mind and will. People want to NEG me...Go for it..Hell do it now for all I care..lol... It doesnt matter what anyone says against DY cause someone like you "nut huger" will always put up a fight and argue that having 1/2 a body is indeed enough and a legit reason to win the Olympia.

Heaven forbid competitions are about having a pleasing,complete body like they were before the DY period...I guess though that money and endorsements and favoritism can buy you anything. AND remember, no matter what, judges are not always right but they are always paid.

[DylanDetrick]

Wrong. Certain body parts are more important than others. Frank McGrath's godlike forearms are not going to help him place ahead of guys with better wheels than him. Yes, everything is taken into consideration but some factors are more significant than others. Okay...Dorian "lacked rear delt development" but his back was far more developed than Ray and yes the judges like that more. No, that does not mean I am not considering the balance in bodybuilding. Point is your criticism about Dorian's weak rear delt (which quite honestly I don't see) does not matter because that is not enough to outweigh the domination Yates has over Ray in all other aspects...

Your last statement is irrelevant because I never said you don't get marked down for them. I said those factors are important as well. clearly you missed the point...

Again, don't get me wrong, I love Shawn Ray...but put him next to Dorian and he's just a child...

Whatever dude I really don't care, it is what it is, Dorian won although I don't feel he should have and I don't feel like arguing about it right now. This thread is giving me a headache.

[DylanDetrick]

Quotes from Shawn Ray about the 1994 Mr. Olympia:

I thought I should have won in 1994. Dorian Yates was first, I was second and Kevin Levrone was third. And you, my friend, were in my condo a week before with a neck brace on. You just bought your black BMW and came over the week I was leaving. I hit some shots and you had this look on your face like, "I'm staring at the new Mr. Olympia." This coming from a guy who had won every show there was to win in 1993. So for you to be standing there, with your jaw hanging on the floor, giving me your blessing, I went in headstrong and assured. That was all the endorsement I needed.

I was unaware that Dorian had torn his biceps. I didn't know he was bloated and that his color was off. Plus, he had a lackluster posing routine. In fact, I was so focused on Shawn, that Dorian never entered my mind. I was more focused on the fact that I had to beat you, until your car accident. Even though Dorian won in '93, I felt you were the one to beat. My yardstick wasn't this 250-pound monster. My yardstick was Flex Wheeler. How can I get past this guy? You raised the bar for me. I knew you could topple Dorian if you repeated your Arnold Classic condition.

So I went in there cocky. I dusted off my '87 posing routine- the one I won the Nationals with. I figured this posing routine was gonna set the ditches between me and Dorian. After prejudging, you'd have thought I was Mr. Olympia by the buzz in the air. People were talking about the complete package I brought. Dorian was bigger than everybody, so I wasn't gonna catch him there. But you could find flaws in his physique that you couldn't find on mine. The person who wins should be the one with the fewest flaws. Being so close to you in '93, with Dorian at his all-time best, gave me confidence. He was clearly off from last year. He had to get marked down for it. When it didn't happen, it took something out of me. As a matter of fact, I think I retired that night.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

The worst moment was in 1994, when I lost the Mr. Olympia contest. That was even harder to deal with than failing the drug test at the Arnold Classic in 1990 because I won that show. I felt like a winner there, everybody who saw it felt that. At the Mr. Olympia contest, in 1992 I was 4th, in 1993 I was 3rd. In 1994, to wind up second in a contest that I felt I had won, when Dorian had torn his bicep, came in with a bloated stomach, his color was off, and it was clear he was visibly not at his best from 1993. A lot of people came to my room, and told me I looked the best, that I was going to win. The photographers were setting up photo shoot for me. Joe Weider gave me his blessing - he thought that I nailed it. Everybody who knew me knew that I had nailed this show. I used the routine that I turned pro with in 1987, and I nailed that too. I felt that this was going to be the night.

And when they announced Dorian in first, I felt that at that point and time, there was nothing that I could have changed, nothing I would have done differently, and nothing more that I could do. This was the best that I had with my physique, and I was dazed and confused because I didn't know what else I could do with my body? I didn't want to change anything - I was happy. And when I placed second, it was the worst thing. I would have been happier if I had placed 6th or 7th. One person stopped me from my destiny. One person away from realizing a dream since I had in high school. I was 10 years removed from high school, it was two weeks after my 10 years reunion, and when that happened, it took a lot out of me. I retired that night.

I never looked at the scorecard, I never asked a judge what I could have done better, I never asked why. I knew I should have won just by looking in the mirror. Flex Wheeler had come to my house a week before, and remember that Flex was 2nd at the Olympia a year before that (in 1993, Flex was in a car wreck). He came over, and he said that he had never seen anything that looked like that in person. It is very hard to impress somebody like Flex. Flex rarely gives compliments that I acknowledged to that degree. Afterwards, I had many people come to tell me the same thing. I studied the video, looked at pictures. I found a few things wrong with Dorian and nothing with myself then. After about two weeks, I found peace, because I felt there was nothing I could do to prevent that loss. The judges had it in their mind and it was reaffirmed in 1997 when Dorian tore his triceps, and the judges were verbally telling the athletes before the show that they were going to be marking down for distended stomachs, yet they allowed him to win his 6th Olympia and retire.

[dawsondvm]

Wrong. Certain body parts are more important than others. Frank McGrath's godlike forearms are not going to help him place ahead of guys with better wheels than him. Yes, everything is taken into consideration but some factors are more significant than others. Okay...Dorian "lacked rear delt development" but his back was far more developed than Ray and yes the judges like that more. No, that does not mean I am not considering the balance in bodybuilding. Point is your criticism about Dorian's weak rear delt (which quite honestly I don't see) does not matter because that is not enough to outweigh the domination Yates has over Ray in all other aspects...

Your last statement is irrelevant because I never said you don't get marked down for them. I said those factors are important as well. clearly you missed the point...

Again, don't get me wrong, I love Shawn Ray...but put him next to Dorian and he's just a child...

You are wise beyond your age.

[creationd]

This is just another example of how good he was in 94.

2:00 - Dillett, Yates and Levrone pose together, three massive men. Watch as Ray joins in and just shows how small he is in comparison. Thats for the Ray lovers.

5:01 - For everyone else this is Dorian standing next to Ray and Levrone. Bigger, more conditioned, more developed overall. Bigger waist of course, but means nothing. Levrone and Ray just have tiny waists. Ronnie Coleman had a bigger waist than everyone he beat most of his career and it mattered none.

It is crazy at 0:18 my eyes immediately go to Dorian and you can see he looks the best overall he is massive and stands out, can't take your eyes off him, judges had the same opinion.

[lancs_hotpot]

Quotes from Shawn Ray about the 1994 Mr. Olympia:

I thought I should have won in 1994. Dorian Yates was first, I was second and Kevin Levrone was third. And you, my friend, were in my condo a week before with a neck brace on. You just bought your black BMW and came over the week I was leaving. I hit some shots and you had this look on your face like, "I'm staring at the new Mr. Olympia." This coming from a guy who had won every show there was to win in 1993. So for you to be standing there, with your jaw hanging on the floor, giving me your blessing, I went in headstrong and assured. That was all the endorsement I needed.

I was unaware that Dorian had torn his biceps. I didn't know he was bloated and that his color was off. Plus, he had a lackluster posing routine. In fact, I was so focused on Shawn, that Dorian never entered my mind. I was more focused on the fact that I had to beat you, until your car accident. Even though Dorian won in '93, I felt you were the one to beat. My yardstick wasn't this 250-pound monster. My yardstick was Flex Wheeler. How can I get past this guy? You raised the bar for me. I knew you could topple Dorian if you repeated your Arnold Classic condition.

So I went in there cocky. I dusted off my '87 posing routine- the one I won the Nationals with. I figured this posing routine was gonna set the ditches between me and Dorian. After prejudging, you'd have thought I was Mr. Olympia by the buzz in the air. People were talking about the complete package I brought. Dorian was bigger than everybody, so I wasn't gonna catch him there. But you could find flaws in his physique that you couldn't find on mine. The person who wins should be the one with the fewest flaws. Being so close to you in '93, with Dorian at his all-time best, gave me confidence. He was clearly off from last year. He had to get marked down for it. When it didn't happen, it took something out of me. As a matter of fact, I think I retired that night.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

The worst moment was in 1994, when I lost the Mr. Olympia contest. That was even harder to deal with than failing the drug test at the Arnold Classic in 1990 because I won that show. I felt like a winner there, everybody who saw it felt that. At the Mr. Olympia contest, in 1992 I was 4th, in 1993 I was 3rd. In 1994, to wind up second in a contest that I felt I had won, when Dorian had torn his bicep, came in with a bloated stomach, his color was off, and it was clear he was visibly not at his best from 1993. A lot of people came to my room, and told me I looked the best, that I was going to win. The photographers were setting up photo shoot for me. Joe Weider gave me his blessing - he thought that I nailed it. Everybody who knew me knew that I had nailed this show. I used the routine that I turned pro with in 1987, and I nailed that too. I felt that this was going to be the night.

And when they announced Dorian in first, I felt that at that point and time, there was nothing that I could have changed, nothing I would have done differently, and nothing more that I could do. This was the best that I had with my physique, and I was dazed and confused because I didn't know what else I could do with my body? I didn't want to change anything - I was happy. And when I placed second, it was the worst thing. I would have been happier if I had placed 6th or 7th. One person stopped me from my destiny. One person away from realizing a dream since I had in high school. I was 10 years removed from high school, it was two weeks after my 10 years reunion, and when that happened, it took a lot out of me. I retired that night.

I never looked at the scorecard, I never asked a judge what I could have done better, I never asked why. I knew I should have won just by looking in the mirror. Flex Wheeler had come to my house a week before, and remember that Flex was 2nd at the Olympia a year before that (in 1993, Flex was in a car wreck). He came over, and he said that he had never seen anything that looked like that in person. It is very hard to impress somebody like Flex. Flex rarely gives compliments that I acknowledged to that degree. Afterwards, I had many people come to tell me the same thing. I studied the video, looked at pictures. I found a few things wrong with Dorian and nothing with myself then. After about two weeks, I found peace, because I felt there was nothing I could do to prevent that loss. The judges had it in their mind and it was reaffirmed in 1997 when Dorian tore his triceps, and the judges were verbally telling the athletes before the show that they were going to be marking down for distended stomachs, yet they allowed him to win his 6th Olympia and retire.

Its funny how most of your posts in this thread are just extratcs from that.

[DylanDetrick]

Its funny how most of your posts in this thread are just extratcs from that.

I've made most of the same points made there because that's the truth.