The Official K.O.H.T. V2 Thread

[EricKanevskiy]

Do your program for the next 15 years and if you are bigger and stronger than Wendler or Carter then you'll be legit. Right now you are a 16 year old with 1 year thinking you know everything...not a shock with teenagers.

Also when you post in teh open forum you are going to get a lot or responses...most of them way more intelligent than yours.

It's funny that you think you have accomplished more than me in your training...at least when I squat 280lbs I hit the correct depth.

BTW...how many powerlifting competitions or bodybuilding competitions did you enter in 2012? I entered 2 powerlifting competitions.

Maybe try posting your chit over on the teen forum...you are clearly way over your head and out of your league in the open forum.

Also...LOL @ 25 pound of muscle in a year...thatr's some funny chit. 25lb of bodyweight yes, but I can assure you it was not 25lbs of pure muscle.

Oh lawd...where to begin?

-It's funny that you bring up the teen section. The teen section is where I've been posting for close to a year now and although I caused a few ****storms here and there, I'd say the average TBB poster has about 20 IQ points on the average WP/Exercise section poster and that's being generous. For one, nobody there will ever pull the puberty card because they're either going through or have just gone through puberty and have the common sense to know that you don't gain 25+ lbs of muscle, 16" arms, and a proportionate physique in a year purely due to puberty, a caloric surplus, and lifting weights. On the other hand, everybody in this section likes to pull that card to explain their lack of results.

-You entered two powerlifting competitions? What does this prove if you don't look like you lift or even have an impressive total? I can enter 10 if you want me to, but I'll still look better than you at the end of the day.

-I never said that I gained 25 pounds of muscle in my first year. I gained over 25 pounds of muscle in my first year.

[timmzzy1]

Oh lawd...where to begin?

-It's funny that you bring up the teen section. The teen section is where I've been posting for close to a year now and although I caused a few ****storms here and there, I'd say the average TBB poster has about 20 IQ points on the average WP/Exercise section poster and that's being generous. For one, nobody there will ever pull the puberty card because they're either going through or have just gone through puberty and have the common sense to know that you don't gain 25+ lbs of muscle, 16" arms, and a proportionate physique in a year purely due to puberty, a caloric surplus, and lifting weights. If that was the case, every kid on SS would be my size but as I keep repeating, it just doesn't happen. I'm not saying that to come across as arrogant or even trolling at this point; it's simply the truth.

-You entered two powerlifting competitions? I can enter 10 if you want me to, but I'll still look better than you at the end of the day.

-I never said that I gained 25 pounds of muscle in my first year. I gained over 25 pounds of muscle in my first year.

Sorry to say eric (not really) but you cant be serious, there are heaps of people over in tbb that are bigger than you (myself included), and you act as if 16' arms are big, if anyone gained as much fat as you have they'de have arms that big aswell, and stop being so arrogant, i looked better than you when i was 14

[GinjaNinja85]

All this claiming about your results. Do you have a picture without a top on?
It'd be interesting to see how much muscle you've actually put on. It's difficult to tell as your AVI only shows your arms. Don't play the homo card either. I reckon you've put on more fat and gained less muscle than you might think. Over 25 pounds of muscle is alot.

[EricKanevskiy]

All this claiming about your results. Do you have a picture without a top on?
It'd be interesting to see how much muscle you've actually put on. It's difficult to tell as your AVI only shows your arms. Don't play the homo card either. I reckon you've put on more fat and gained less muscle than you might think. Over 25 pounds of muscle is alot.

>.<

Did you even look at the OP?

[EricKanevskiy]

Well, this thread has gone to ****. From this point forward, I will only answer serious questions from people on the program/wanting to try the program out. Anybody who bickers about high volume or frequency or puberty or optimal or any of that other shyt will be ignored. If you don't like the program, don't do it. Simple as that. However, don't come back and complain to me when your results are sub optimal. I'll leave it at that. Time to get this thread back on track.

Tymen.

[BradCathie]

If you consider Eric's squat to be a proper squat, tell me know. That way I know not to bother responding to you anymore. I don't think you understand what I mean when "learn" (meaning neural efficiency, mind muscle connection etc). It isn't a matter of being lazy.

I've never seen him squat.

Aren't you the one advocating that linear strength routines are better for beginners even if their main goal is hypertrophy? Most of those programs don't even remotely touch on MMC; simply physically performing the exercise properly.

I did Stronglifts and similar other routines for about 2-3 months and it was great for form; I learnt all the big lifts. It sure as hell didn't teach me a thing about MMC though which is crucial to effective hypertrophy training.

In the end, people "learn" these things from experience and they get to experience all KOHT has to offer 3 times a week, giving beginners plenty of opportunity to learn and adapt to what they're doing.

You're saying that's impossible/too difficult with so many exercises and limited sets per exercise right? I simply disagree.

[timmzzy1]

>.<

Did you even look at the OP?

What, the one where we cant see anything? How about actually post pics that are close up/not extremely blury

[timmzzy1]

Well, this thread has gone to ****. From this point forward, I will only answer serious questions from people on the program/wanting to try the program out. Anybody who bickers about high volume or frequency or puberty or optimal or any of that other shyt will be ignored. If you don't like the program, don't do it. Simple as that. However, don't come back and complain to me when your results are sub optimal. I'll leave it at that. Time to get this thread back on track.

Tymen.

So in other words, you cant think of any arguments to support your claims against the people who have clearly outsmarted you

[timmzzy1]

Lol eric negged me, just proves that he cant take any negative criticism

[EricKanevskiy]

Lol eric negged me, just proves that he cant take any negative criticism

When you're optimal, by definition there's no possible criticism to receive.

[timmzzy1]

When you're optimal, by definition there's no possible criticism to receive.

If your so optimal why arnt you bigger/stronger than me?

[EricKanevskiy]

If your so optimal why arnt you bigger/stronger than me?

If you're so big/strong, why aren't you as optimal as me?

[timmzzy1]

If you're so big/strong, why aren't you as optimal as me?

That make no sense, if im bigger and stronger than you that makes me more optimal than you

[TheJediBrah]

Also...LOL @ 25 pound of muscle in a year...thatr's some funny chit. 25lb of bodyweight yes, but I can assure you it was not 25lbs of pure muscle.

At risk of being accused of pulling the "puberty card", at his age, while still growing, such gains are not unheard of. That should be obvious. I know people who have gained close to 25lbs of muscle in a year who don't even lift, during a growth spurt.

I'd say the average TBB poster has about 20 IQ points on the average WP/Exercise section poster and that's being generous.

i can confirm this, i have been regular poster in both sections for years.

What, the one where we cant see anything? How about actually post pics that are close up/not extremely blury

lol you don't know eric do you?

He only posts pics with heavy lighting, angles etc

Because that's what's optimal

[EricKanevskiy]

That make no sense, if im bigger and stronger than you that makes me more optimal than you

[timmzzy1]

I guess that means i win then

[lefteris7]

Are you going to respond to specifics at all?

Because fundamental research into the motor development of beginners completely contradicts your idea that 15 exercises per workout could in any way be anything resembling optimal in a routine. That and the idea of limiting the exposure of an exercise to 2 sets, seems like an amazing way to completely phuck yourself up by not developing your motor patterns properly when you're a novice and most malleable.

I know you you love the idea of protein synthesis, but its not relevant at all, more protein synthesis doesn't have any direct correlation to the amount of muscle you're going to build, endurance runners can have massive elevations of protein synthesis post workout, but its meaningless because its not relevant to the context of hypertrophy.

I know you keep saying your routine is supported by research, but in reality its contradicted by virtually every Ph.D in the field of exercise physiology who has published literature on the science of strength training, most importantly Zatsiorsky and Verkhoshansky, possibly the 2 most contemporary scientists in the field.

bumping a great question.
Please answer Eric, I would like to see your opinion on that.

[acrawlingchaos]

All this claiming about your results. Do you have a picture without a top on?

It'd be interesting to see how much muscle you've actually put on. It's difficult to tell as your AVI only shows your arms. Don't play the homo card either. I reckon you've put on more fat and gained less muscle than you might think. Over 25 pounds of muscle is alot.

What, the one where we cant see anything? How about actually post pics that are close up/not extremely blury

WHOA, WHOA whoa.... just... just woah. Be careful, he may accuse you of being overtly homosexual for requesting photographs of muscular development on a bodybuilding site.

He would do such a thing?

Well, this thread has gone to ****. From this point forward, I will only answer serious questions from people on the program/wanting to try the program out. Anybody who bickers about high volume or frequency or puberty or optimal or any of that other shyt will be ignored. If you don't like the program, don't do it. Simple as that. However, don't come back and complain to me when your results are sub optimal. I'll leave it at that. Time to get this thread back on track.

Tymen.

KOHT is srs business.... especially when the suit comes on.

[GinjaNinja85]

WHOA, WHOA whoa.... just... just woah. Be careful, he may accuse you of being overtly homosexual for requesting photographs of muscular development on a bodybuilding site.

After having another look at the OP photos I have a feeling that Eric is in fact quite porky nowadays. If you start out as anorexic and you train and eat your way to podgyness, regardless of puberty or not, the transformation will be huge. I'm sure he has his nutrition in check. I just doubt that he knows much about the execution of lifts and what a good program is. I'm estimating he has doubled his Bodyfat % from the photos supplied. Nothing wrong with that, except he's acting like some kind of big shot when he's just fresh out of noob gains.

[acrawlingchaos]

...

Agreed. When I bulked to 196, I thought I was muscular. In fact, I overfeed incorrectly (wreck-less abandon) and put on quite a bit of fat. At 167, I probably have 10 more pounds to go.

The OP has a solid knowledge of nutrition. I just hope his execution with diet is better than his execution of movements.

[EricKanevskiy]

bumping a great question.
Please answer Eric, I would like to see your opinion on that.

Will do.

Because fundamental research into the motor development of beginners completely contradicts your idea that 15 exercises per workout could in any way be anything resembling optimal in a routine. That and the idea of limiting the exposure of an exercise to 2 sets, seems like an amazing way to completely phuck yourself up by not developing your motor patterns properly when you're a novice and most malleable.

You're doing the majority of the compound exercises for 6-8 sets per week with this routine, which is more than you would on Starting Strength, for example, so poor motor development isn't really a concern. It's just that on top of doing presses, rows, squats, etc. you're also not neglecting anything, hence the much higher volume.

The concept of elevated protein synthesis is meaningless in the context he is aruging it.

You can take a ****load of corticosteriods and then when the effects wore off, there would be a compensatory MASSIVE increase in synthesis of protein in your body.

When you break down more proteins, its obvious that you're gonna have rebuild those proteins, but that doesn't guarantee a greater NET effect.

SAID principle and progressive overload are the 2 most important factors by a long shot here, and everyone else is a long second.

If muscle protein synthesis is not elevated, your muscles are not growing so saying that there's no correlation is a bit of a stretch. Yes, progressive overload is far more important and somebody who progressively overloads on a bro split will gain more muscle than somebody who does my program and never adds weight to anything. However, in that case, they're not really doing my program after all. I explain the importance of progressive overload in the video and explain how to progress so it is not my fault if somebody chooses to ignore the program's ideologies.

Is progressive overload the most important factor when it comes to muscle growth? Yes. Will progressive overload + consistently elevated protein synthesis lead to more muscle growth than just progressive overload? Yes. In fact, there is a lot more room for progressive overload when you're performing exercises 3x a week rather than 1x or 2x so you're really just picking at straws with this argument.

[EricKanevskiy]

After having another look at the OP photos I have a feeling that Eric is in fact quite porky nowadays. If you start out as anorexic and you train and eat your way to podgyness, regardless of puberty or not, the transformation will be huge. I'm sure he has his nutrition in check. I just doubt that he knows much about the execution of lifts and what a good program is. I'm estimating he has doubled his Bodyfat % from the photos supplied. Nothing wrong with that, except he's acting like some kind of big shot when he's just fresh out of noob gains.

What is this, I don't even. You're basing my knowledge off of one set, which was a PR set to failure, where form was bound to degenerate. If you watch some of my other recent workout videos, my form is close to impeccable more often than not.

If you're going to pull the noob gains card, post a picture of your first year progress. If gaining 30 pounds of muscle and 5" on your arms in one year is considered normal, why hasn't a single person in this thread been able to replicate this kind of progress?

[BradCathie]

I've never seen him squat.

Aren't you the one advocating that linear strength routines are better for beginners even if their main goal is hypertrophy? Most of those programs don't even remotely touch on MMC; simply physically performing the exercise properly.

I did Stronglifts and similar other routines for about 2-3 months and it was great for form; I learnt all the big lifts. It sure as hell didn't teach me a thing about MMC though which is crucial to effective hypertrophy training.

In the end, people "learn" these things from experience and they get to experience all KOHT has to offer 3 times a week, giving beginners plenty of opportunity to learn and adapt to what they're doing.

You're saying that's impossible/too difficult with so many exercises and limited sets per exercise right? I simply disagree.

Trying to have a debate with a guy, he has his jimmies rustled and negs me because I don't agree with him.

That's cute. Good luck with your butthurt goals of 2013, Chaos.

[GinjaNinja85]

What is this, I don't even. You're basing my knowledge off of one set, which was a PR set to failure, where form was bound to degenerate. If you watch some of my other recent workout videos, my form is close to impeccable more often than not.

If you're going to pull the noob gains card, post a picture of your first year progress. If gaining 30 pounds of muscle and 5" on your arms in one year is considered normal, why hasn't a single person in this thread been able to replicate this kind of progress?

Maybe your form is good in the others. You should have posted one of those instead. I have a vid of me squatting a tough 300x5 and every rep reaches depth so I don't think it's any excuse.

It's impossible to compare your progress with mine. I was a fully grown man when I started at around 15% bf. You were a boy hitting puberty (you clearly have no idea how much testosterone that gives you) and were tiny at considerably less than 10%bf. You had all the time in the world to train and sleep as you've got no commitments. My weight gain ceiling was less than yours' plus I work a demanding job, often 7 days a week. If I had your time, I could have made better progress, but I've done pretty well I'd say.

And so have you. Just calm the attitude and be a little humble. You do not, and cannot, know the most optimal program with such little experience. It's worth looking into, this style of programming, but I think you're going overboard with the effectiveness especially as you haven't trained any successful natty BBers.

[heybigboy5]

Strong thread. AmazinJason brings up some good points. I don't know what to believe

[marius42]

I've been lifting for halv a year, I am a beginner and I have learned mucch, and yet I don't have as much as most people on the forums know.

Nevertheless, i can't helpng wondring how much sterooids you have used to gain that much muscle. I am a newbie, but you got ALOT of volume and you exercise often. Anyone else thinking the same?

[acrawlingchaos]

What is this, I don't even. You're basing my knowledge off of one set, which was a PR set to failure, where form was bound to degenerate. If you watch some of my other recent workout videos, my form is close to impeccable more often than not.

Bad form involves butt winking, goodmorning, knee caving etc. What we have here with you, is a failure to go into the hole. Your form isn't failing, you are refusing to do a full ROM. Big difference IMO.

If you're going to pull the noob gains card, post a picture of your first year progress. If gaining 30 pounds of muscle and 5" on your arms in one year is considered normal, why hasn't a single person in this thread been able to replicate this kind of progress?

Sure, started 18 months ago, age 34.

152 lbs




I bulked up to about 190+ish and cut.


172 lbs (after cut @ one year in training)





I consider my first year to be a good one, though not stellar. I think you are in for a rude awakening when you find you have to cut 30 pounds.

Trying to have a debate with a guy, he has his jimmies rustled and negs me because I don't agree with him.

That's cute. Good luck with your butthurt goals of 2013, Chaos.

Strong rep beg.

LOL @ your hommie.


Gotcha on recharge Brad.

It's impossible to compare your progress with mine. I was a fully grown man when I started at around 15% bf. You were a boy hitting puberty (you clearly have no idea how much testosterone that gives you) and were tiny at considerably less than 10%bf. You had all the time in the world to train and sleep as you've got no commitments. My weight gain ceiling was less than yours' plus I work a demanding job, often 7 days a week. If I had your time, I could have made better progress, but I've done pretty well I'd say.

Of course there is this. I am well past my hormonal prime, I work 3rd shift and have a number of other responsibilities a child does not. Yet I still progressed well.

[agrier9]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this program is designed for hypertrophy. Therefore, I'm shaking my head at the people claiming size and power lifting experience equates to expertise in nutritional and physiological sciences. If size and strength were the best mediums for determining a person's knowledge base by that means the olympians must be smarter than guys like Alan, Lyle, Layne, and a number of other reputable people in the field. Additionally, I don't believe Lyle McDonald had any credentials before contributing to the field and did not study anything to do with exercise science at a higher learning institution; but is currently one of the most reputable contributors. I've seen Eric's videos and they've got good information in them. However, the point is he has videos lol the majority of the critics here ragging hard haven't done anything to input their opinion to the field.

[Whitekoala]

edit

[Saintsqc]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this program is designed for hypertrophy. Therefore, I'm shaking my head at the people claiming size and power lifting experience equates to expertise in nutritional and physiological sciences. If size and strength were the best mediums for determining a person's knowledge base by that means the olympians must be smarter than guys like Alan, Lyle, Layne, and a number of other reputable people in the field. Additionally, I don't believe Lyle McDonald had any credentials before contributing to the field and did not study anything to do with exercise science at a higher learning institution; but is currently one of the most reputable contributors. I've seen Eric's videos and they've got good information in them. However, the point is he has videos lol the majority of the critics here ragging hard haven't done anything to input their opinion to the field.

You use extremes to make your point. Obviously, an elite athlete will not know more than someone who earns his life with researches and vulgarization. However, the guy who has quite a lot of experience and made good progress is more likely to know more than the kid who just finished his puberty and has been lifting for a year.

lol @ eric's vids got good infos. Anyone on this forum could do the same. He is just parroting informations from stickies. When he is trying to vulgarize informations from articles, he ends up spitting bull**** because he dont understand the content.