AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[OllieN96]

Like the others said you are 16-18%. Id eat enough to just maintain weight while doing 10% bumps till things got hard (odds are cycle 3). Once you fail 2 outa 3 of the bench/row/squat or fail one of the 3 twice in a row, then you can reevaluate goals. Right now you have plenty of fat on you to "bulk" on so you dont need extra calories yet to max out gains.

If you look at my march 2013 profile pic, that is about the outline your goal should before bulking. Im at 11-12% there, but that is due to medical reasons, a normal person would be about 10lbs heavier and 13-14% with the same definition.

The problem is that I have (from other opinions on the forum) very little muscle, and therefore all maintaining will do is spine my wheel.

I need to build a foundation first to then utilise to burn the remains of my obesity fat, as these more recent photos show.

[nightanole]

The problem is that I have (from other opinions on the forum) very little muscle, and therefore all maintaining will do is spine my wheel.

I need to build a foundation first to then utilise to burn the remains of my obesity fat, as these more recent photos show.

I stand by my original statement. Eat to maintain weight till the program gets extremely hard to progress at, then throw food at it to continue progression.

Feel free to run an extremely fast, simple program, such as Strong lifts 5x5 or powerliftingtowin's programmingtowin. Those programs will have you missing reps within 6 weeks if your diet is not on point.

I could go into the science a little. What does over eating do? It consistently raises your insulin levels. What does raised insulin levels do? Its a trigger for muscle hypertrophy (in the presence of localized igf1 and blood testosterone) and fat storage. Now If you have very little muscle, and an above average amount of fat, where do you think the nutrients are going to go? Now lets play this game some more. How do we raise the insulin sensitivity of a muscle? We consistently fatigue it. How do we make Mr. Muscle produce localized igf1? We stress it with tension. So if we are over eating, we want to over eat when a muscle is highly trained, regardless of size. We also want to over eat when we have the least amount of reasonable body fat.

So im telling you right now, dont start stuffing your face till things get hard. Its only going to take 60 days tops for things to get hard on any beginner routine. Once that happens, once you have the cns patterns of the movement down and have good form, once your muscles are at their peak operating efficient, feed them.

[OllieN96]

I stand by my original statement. Eat to maintain weight till the program gets extremely hard to progress at, then throw food at it to continue progression.

Feel free to run an extremely fast, simple program, such as Strong lifts 5x5 or powerliftingtowin's programmingtowin. Those programs will have you missing reps within 6 weeks if your diet is not on point.

I could go into the science a little. What does over eating do? It consistently raises your insulin levels. What does raised insulin levels do? Its a trigger for muscle hypertrophy (in the presence of localized igf1 and blood testosterone) and fat storage. Now If you have very little muscle, and an above average amount of fat, where do you think the nutrients are going to go? Now lets play this game some more. How do we raise the insulin sensitivity of a muscle? We consistently fatigue it. How do we make Mr. Muscle produce localized igf1? We stress it with tension. So if we are over eating, we want to over eat when a muscle is highly trained, regardless of size. We also want to over eat when we have the least amount of reasonable body fat.

So im telling you right now, dont start stuffing your face till things get hard. Its only going to take 60 days tops for things to get hard on any beginner routine. Once that happens, once you have the cns patterns of the movement down and have good form, once your muscles are at their peak operating efficient, feed them.

To be clear, I train at maintenance until this is insufficient for my progress, and then lean bulk, or just add calories (a 100 a week?) until resuming progression?

[nightanole]

To be clear, I train at maintenance until this is insufficient for my progress, and then lean bulk, or just add calories (a 100 a week?) until resuming progression?

Yes. Most trainers recommend a 250 cal per day adjustment every 2 weeks till lifts start improving again.

The fun part for you is maintaining weight, ive seen a bulk turn into a cut in six months just due to the increased muscle mass and volume load.

[OllieN96]

Yes. Most trainers recommend a 250 cal per day adjustment every 2 weeks till lifts start improving again.

Okay.

During the maintenance phase will I burn enough of the remaining fat to then enter a long-term lean bulk, as am I not currently a too high body fat % to lean bulk regardless of training?

[nightanole]

Okay.

During the maintenance phase will I burn enough of the remaining fat to then enter a long-term lean bulk, as am I not currently a too high body fat % to lean bulk regardless of training?

A body building bulk is 10-15%
A strongman/powerlifing bulk is 12-18%

Either way you are at the tail end of the bulk phase. And yes you will be burning fat while trying to maintain weight. At some point your bf level will not be enough to recover from the weight lifting volume, and you will need to throw food at in order to maintain volume.

[OllieN96]

A body building bulk is 10-15%
A strongman/powerlifing bulk is 12-18%

Either way you are at the tail end of the bulk phase. And yes you will be burning fat while trying to maintain weight. At some point your bf level will not be enough to recover from the weight lifting volume, and you will need to throw food at in order to maintain volume.

So, would I aim for a 10% surplus?

Is that body fat point when I am at 12-13%?

To confirm, I will eventually enter a lean bulk (gaining fat as well as muscle?) but only when my body will actually utilise the surplus (which it otherwise would not and turn most of this into pure fat, which I aim to minimise)?

[nightanole]

So, would I aim for a 10% surplus?

Is that body fat point when I am at 12-13%?

To confirm, I will eventually enter a lean bulk (gaining fat as well as muscle?) but only when my body will actually utilise the surplus (which it otherwise would not and turn most of this into pure fat, which I aim to minimise)?

You adjust 250 cals every 2 weeks till your lifts impove. Once you lifts improve you stick with that calorie count. At some point that wont be enough, and you again start bumping 250 cals every 2 weeks till lifts improve. You do this over and over. Odds are every 6-18 months you will need a 4-8 week 5-10lb "fat cut" inorder to maintain your bf percentage.

It gets incredibly hard to progress AND cut below 13%. You will have to choose to either bulk and progress, or continue cutting and maintain lifts til you get to relaxed abs.

"To confirm, I will eventually enter a lean bulk (gaining fat as well as muscle?) but only when my body will actually utilise the surplus (which it otherwise would not and turn most of this into pure fat, which I aim to minimise)?"

You got it.

[OllieN96]

You adjust 250 cals every 2 weeks till your lifts impove. Once you lifts improve you stick with that calorie count. At some point that wont be enough, and you again start bumping 250 cals every 2 weeks till lifts improve. You do this over and over. Odds are every 6-18 months you will need a 4-8 week 5-10lb "fat cut" inorder to maintain your bf percentage.

It gets incredibly hard to progress AND cut below 13%. You will have to choose to either bulk and progress, or continue cutting and maintain lifts til you get to relaxed abs.


"To confirm, I will eventually enter a lean bulk (gaining fat as well as muscle?) but only when my body will actually utilise the surplus (which it otherwise would not and turn most of this into pure fat, which I aim to minimise)?"

You got it.

While doing this (training at maintenance) will I partly be aiming to get down to 14-15% body fat (from my current 16%) to be in an optimal position to lean bulk?

[nightanole]

While doing this (training at maintenance) will I partly be aiming to get down to 14-15% body fat (from my current 16%) to be in an optimal position to lean bulk?

Yes. You are aiming for abs while tensed. And you stop bulking when you go smooth again.

[OllieN96]

Yes. You are aiming for abs while tensed. And you stop bulking when you go smooth again.

Okay, and so you think it is possible for me to obtain this within those first 60 days (about 2 months) of progression?

[nightanole]

Okay, and so you think it is possible for me to obtain this within those first 60 days (about 2 months) of progression?

Yes. It should happen around the time of your first deload trigger on any beginner routine.

Since you are in prime "starting strength" states. SS would have a teenage/early college male that is 5.9-6.1 weighing in around 190-210lbs@18%BF and having a 300lb+ squat, in about 9-12 months. After that it would take a 3-4 month cut to get down to 170-190lbs@13%.

On allpro(since its a body building routine) we are simply skipping the whole "18% for a year" phase at the expense of getting to a 300lb squat early.


Trust me if you are putting in the effort, working out with only 1-2 reps left in the tank after the 2nd set, hopefully doing the conditioning work of 3 10k jogs a week, Its going to be a job just trying to maintain weight at your age. Its also going to be a job over eating. After i got my first 6-7lbs of muscle on allpro, my TDEE went up 500 cals. That means my 500 cal bulk turned into maintenance in about 6-7 months of lifting.

[OllieN96]

Yes. It should happen around the time of your first deload trigger on any beginner routine.

Since you are in prime "starting strength" states. SS would have a teenage/early college male that is 5.9-6.1 weighing in around 190-210lbs@18%BF and having a 300lb+ squat, in about 9-12 months. After that it would take a 3-4 month cut to get down to 170-190lbs@13%.

On allpro(since its a body building routine) we are simply skipping the whole "18% for a year" phase at the expense of getting to a 300lb squat early.


Trust me if you are putting in the effort, working out with only 1-2 reps left in the tank after the 2nd set, hopefully doing the conditioning work of 3 10k jogs a week, Its going to be a job just trying to maintain weight at your age. Its also going to be a job over eating. After i got my first 6-7lbs of muscle on allpro, my TDEE went up 500 cals. That means my 500 cal bulk turned into maintenance in about 6-7 months of lifting.

I understand this so much more now, cheers for all the information!

So, for a final recap.

I will train at maintenance until I cannot progress further (which should occur within 2 months of being on the routine). During this period I will burn off enough fat to reach around 13% BF (from my current 16%), and here increase calories until progressing again (lean bulking).

Once lean bulking I essentially continue this while minimising fat gain for as much as a year or more (until I feel a cut is necessary to "sharpen things up" so to speak), and then resuming lean bulking.

Throughout this time I will be gradually gaining size and strength.

[nightanole]

I understand this so much more now, cheers for all in information!

So, for a final recap.

I will train at maintenance until I cannot progress further (which should occur within 2 months of being on the routine). During this period I will burn off enough fat to reach around 13% BF (from my current 16%), and here increase calories until progressing again (lean bulking).

Once lean bulking I essentially continue this while minimising fat gain for as much as a year or more (until I feel a cut is necessary to "sharpen things up" so to speak), and then resuming lean bulking.

Throughout this time I will be gradually gaining size and strength.

Correct. Ideally, once at tensed abs, you will gain about 40lbs over 2-3 years, with 26lbs of it being muscle, and the rest fat. You will be cutting the fat in mini cuts through out that time to keep yourself in the cut/bulk body fat range. That might be a simple as gaining 10lbs over six months, cutting for a month to lose 5lbs, and then repeating.

[OllieN96]

Correct. Ideally, once at tensed abs, you will gain about 40lbs over 2-3 years, with 26lbs of it being muscle, and the rest fat. You will be cutting the fat in mini cuts through out that time to keep yourself in the cut/bulk body fat range. That might be a simple as gaining 10lbs over six months, cutting for a month to lose 5lbs, and then repeating.

Very insightful, I look forward to working towards this goal, which feels perfect for me now after the explanation.

Regarding exercise separate from the routine workouts, you mentioned the equivalent of 3 10k jogs a week.

Would doing 30 minutes treadmill jogging at a moderate speed and incline along with an hours+ walk daily (covering 1.5-2 miles, including on my 1 rest day) be satisfactory for me?

[nightanole]

Very insightful, I look forward to working towards this goal, which feels perfect for me now after the explanation.

Regarding exercise separate from the routine workouts, you mentioned the equivalent of 3 10k jogs a week.

Would doing 30 minutes treadmill jogging at a moderate speed and incline along with an hours+ walk daily (covering 1.5-2 miles, including on my 1 rest day) be satisfactory for me?

The cardio requirement is "something" you can sustain for at least 45min, even if you only do it for 20-30min. You want to avoid things like 18min 5ks, HIIT, wind sprints, hill climbs and other non complete cardio endurance challenges.

" hours+ walk daily (covering 1.5-2 miles" This is acceptable if it is non stop. This doesnt count if its just your job and you are stopping every 10min to do something.

The only thing we are trying to do with the cardio is to get your muscles to run off of blood glucose instead of muscle glycogen(which is what we are trying to tax on the 2nd set of allpro) to increase recovery between workouts.

[alboss]

Just started week 2 of cycle 1 today. So far so good. Just wanna say thanks nightanole for being so helpful to all of us here.

[OllieN96]

Nightanole,

You said that I currently have enough body fat to 'bulk' on.

Could you explain this to me?

Is this fat going to burned as energy in my workouts, and if so doesn't this also require a caloric deficit (essentially cutting)?

[nightanole]

Nightanole,

You said that I currently have enough body fat to 'bulk' on.

could you explain this to me?

Is this fat going to burned as energy in my workouts, and is so doesn't this also require a caloric deficite (essentially cutting)?

Fat will supply the additional calories you need over maintenance to increase muscle mass. So yes you are technically cutting if you think of it as a calories in vs calories out.

[OllieN96]

Fat will supply the additional calories you need over maintenance to increase muscle mass. So yes you are technically cutting if you think of it as a calories in vs calories out.

But I don't have to actively be in a caloric deficit, just at or around maintenance calories, right?

[nightanole]

But I don't have to actively be in a caloric deficit, just at or around maintenance calories, right?

Correct, otherwise you would be dropping weight.

[OllieN96]

Correct, otherwise you would be dropping weight.

Should I expect weight gain from the trade off in muscle for fat (muscle weighing more), and if so at roughly what speed and quantity a month?

With lat pull downs, barbell curls, triceps cable pull downs and calf raises (All Pro's Butchered Edition 1) do these need two warm up sets, and do they follow the same rep range as the other lifts (squat, bench, row) of 8 (and then a rep more per workout)?

[nightanole]

Should I expect weight gain from the trade off in muscle for fat (muscle weighing more), and if so at roughly what speed and quantity a month?

With lat pull downs, barbell curls, triceps cable pull downs and calf raises (All Pro's Butchered Edition 1) do these need two warm up sets, and do they follow the same rep range as the other lifts (squat, bench, row) of 8 (and then a rep more per workout)?

Me thinks you are not getting any responses from the butchered thread, so you are posting here. Butchered has been completely redone at least twice. I will not answer questions on it.

You might want to do some more research. fat and muscle have almost the same mass (fat is like 10% fluffier), muscle is like 900 cals a pound(with 130g of protein), and fat is 3000-3500 cals.
Odds are you will be losing 2-3lbs of fat per cycle, while gaining 1-2lbs of muscle and 1-2lbs of water weight (glycogen stores).

[GettinFat2fit]

Hi nightanole,

my back is still sore, and the erector spinae feels inflamed, it feels more pronounced than on the other side of my back. The soreness also sort of feels like it's spread down the side of my right glute and thigh.

Do I just skip training till it gets better, or just avoid squats and sldl for now ?

[OllieN96]

Me thinks you are not getting any responses from the butchered thread, so you are posting here. Butchered has been completely redone at least twice. I will not answer questions on it.

You might want to do some more research. fat and muscle have almost the same mass (fat is like 10% fluffier), muscle is like 900 cals a pound(with 130g of protein), and fat is 3000-3500 cals.
Odds are you will be losing 2-3lbs of fat per cycle, while gaining 1-2lbs of muscle and 1-2lbs of water weight (glycogen stores).

Have you been only responding to me in reference to the original routine?

If I'm thinking right, there shouldn't be any significant differences in results (regarding fat loss) whether I do the the original or the Butchered Edition 1 (in fact E1 seems better designed for a recomp)?

[nightanole]

Hi nightanole,

my back is still sore, and the erector spinae feels inflamed, it feels more pronounced than on the other side of my back. The soreness also sort of feels like it's spread down the side of my right glute and thigh.

Do I just skip training till it gets better, or just avoid squats and sldl for now ?

Id take a week off, and restart at 8 rep week next week. Do not do streches, treat it like a bruise or cut, so no stretching or roller ball crap. Id do some good mornings with a broom handle/pvc pipe for 10 reps every other day till it feels good.

[nightanole]

Have you been only responding to me in reference to the original routine?

If I'm thinking right, there shouldn't be any significant differences in results (regarding fat loss) whether I do the the original or the Butchered Edition 1 (in fact E1 seems better designed for a recomp)?

Yup ive only been responding in regards to allpro regular. I have no clue how you will react to butchered since at this point they should just remove the allpro from the name call it "Butcher's beginners program" or something. Allpro's volume is already at the max a true beginner can recover from.

[GettinFat2fit]

Id take a week off, and restart at 8 rep week next week. Do not do streches, treat it like a bruise or cut, so no stretching or roller ball crap. Id do some good mornings with a broom handle/pvc pipe for 10 reps every other day till it feels good.

Cool, thanks.

[OllieN96]

Regarding recompositioning to a point where my abs are visible once tensed, I have some loose skin (from my large fat loss) which my deface this.

Does a whole six pack have to be clear when tensing, or just the overall outline of your stomach muscles?

[nightanole]

Regarding recompositioning to a point where my abs are visible once tensed, I have some loose skin (from my large fat loss) which my deface this.

Does a whole six pack have to be clear when tensing, or just the overall outline of your stomach muscles?

Check out my march 2013 profile pic, that is what your ab outline should look like. I call it a 4 pack, you will still have a layer of fat on the lower abs(bellow belly button), which is also were the lose skin will hang out.