IFPA Pro & Scivation Athlete Tommy Jeffers ~ The Never Ending Quest To Be The Best

[co1e_train]

I It infuriates me that all the 150lbers etc on this site reFUSE to accept real world experiences as truth. If it isn't done in a lab coat as an experience then it isn't true. Ridiculous. Emulate what you aspire to be.

Couldn't agree more!

[AustrianOakJr]

No you are not type I diabetic LOL

What? Type 1 diabetics dont load on 1700g of carbohydrates prior to a show?

Lucky...mine went even lower lol

Well, you got a LITTLE bit leaner than I did. A "LITTLE".

[FrmrHoss]

I'm wondering if there is any logic behind it other than "I ate like X and then like Y and I looked better when I ate Y" - which is no doubt reasonable in a singular case but I'm looking at this empirically.

I find it unfortunate that so many people take what pros say without expecting some rationale behind it.

I asked Tommy because he used to be a huge advocate of eating "within macros" and similarly he used to be against flat bench pressing as a chest exercise and he's changed his mind on both. It's worth the line of questioning.

Sorry that so many of you are so upset by something on the internet. Christ.

I don't think you're grasping it entirely. I was actually enjoying the discussion, and I feel there is a lot to learn (and a lot to be learned) by forcing someone to explain the rationales behind their reasoning. Most people are pissed off because of the condescending tone to your posts and how quickly you are to get hostile, whereas Tommy has pretty civil and has at least engaged you and tried to defend his perspective.

I actually tend to side with you on the GI debate based on the studies that I've read. But, at the same time, I'm not trying to get to stage-ready levels of leanness. I just want to look good naked. To get to 10% body fat, I'm sure I can just make sure I hit my macros/calories with pretty much whatever foods I please.

But, to my knowledge, there are NO studies out there about these sorts of issues (GI, insulin sensitivity and its role in calorie/nutrient partioning) that are done in exclusively a population of VERY LEAN individuals. If I'm wrong, please post the studies because I genuinely would like to read them. Absent that, all we have is anecotal evidence and at least I'm getting anecdotal evidence from Tommy's perspetive; from your end, I just get an assumption that the body processes things the same way at extreme levels of leanness. I don't know which one is accurate, but I do know that Tommy looked hella shredded this past season, so I appreciate the perspective.

[anti-steroids]

Couldn't agree more!

Yeah I agee too!but where most[not all] run into problems is when they go to far to the left or right when the answer is more often than not somewhere in the middle IMO..of course exceptions always exist

[SHARK13]

I don't think you're grasping it entirely. I was actually enjoying the discussion, and I feel there is a lot to learn (and a lot to be learned) by forcing someone to explain the rationales behind their reasoning. Most people are pissed off because of the condescending tone to your posts and how quickly you are to get hostile, whereas Tommy has pretty civil and has at least engaged you and tried to defend his perspective.

I actually tend to side with you on the GI debate based on the studies that I've read. But, at the same time, I'm not trying to get to stage-ready levels of leanness. I just want to look good naked. To get to 10% body fat, I'm sure I can just make sure I hit my macros/calories with pretty much whatever foods I please.

But, to my knowledge, there are NO studies out there about these sorts of issues (GI, insulin sensitivity and its role in calorie/nutrient partioning) that are done in exclusively a population of VERY LEAN individuals. If I'm wrong, please post the studies because I genuinely would like to read them. Absent that, all we have is anecotal evidence and at least I'm getting anecdotal evidence from Tommy's perspetive; from your end, I just get an assumption that the body processes things the same way at extreme levels of leanness. I don't know which one is accurate, but I do know that Tommy looked hella shredded this past season, so I appreciate the perspective.

On the contrary there are studies that examine this subject. I agree with the majority of Tommy's philsophy's. It would be inappropriate to think that carbohydrate selection has little bearing on ones physique, especially in our sport. I reference a study published in the American Journal Of Clinical Nutrtion A novel interaction between dietary composition and insulin
secretion: effects on weight gain in the Quebec Family Study1–3
Jean-Philippe Chaput, Angelo Tremblay, Eric B Rimm, Claude Bouchard, and David S Ludwig
This study concluded several interesting facts which I interpret to support Tommy's viewpoint. A few notable points in the study:
1. insulin-30 (measurement taken after 30 minutes) at baseline strongly predicted changes in bodyweight and waist circumference...
2. The primary findings of this study are that a proxy measure of insulin secretion strongly predicted weight gain and change in waist circumference over 6 y in adult whites...

Another study brushes on some of the debated topics and explores several other variables.
Potentiation of the thermic effect of insulin by
exercise: differences between lean, obese,
and noninsulin-dependent diabetic men13

I'm surprised that anyone challeged Tommy's perspective as the belief that keeping insulin and bay or as low as possible is pretty fundamental with the exception of post workout and perhaps the first meal of the day.

Sorry to add my perspective to YOUR thread, Tommy. I normally don't get too involved. congratulations on an excellent season, your physique was truly remarkable.

[JohnBrowne]

Can you post link to those studies please?

Lyle McDonald actually presented me with the idea that one should keep insulin as elevated as possible while dieting as its anticatabolic effects on muscle tissue tend to be greater than its antilipolytic effects especially in leaner individuals.

At the end of the day though it's extraordinarily difficult to manipulate blood insulin endogenously. I think some of the concepts that have been presented here are valid but only when dealing with exogenous humulin supplementation.

In simplified terms I think many of these concepts have become commonplace in the natty bodybuilding scene but really have no relevance to athletes that aren't manipulating insulin through injections.

I think that carb selection can have a huge effect on body water balance but it's not insulin dependent by any means.

[SHARK13]

Can you post link to those studies please?

Lyle McDonald actually presented me with the idea that one should keep insulin as elevated as possible while dieting as its anticatabolic effects on muscle tissue tend to be greater than its antilipolytic effects especially in leaner individuals.

At the end of the day though it's extraordinarily difficult to manipulate blood insulin endogenously. I think some of the concepts that have been presented here are valid but only when dealing with exogenous humulin supplementation.

In simplified terms I think many of these concepts have become commonplace in the natty bodybuilding scene but really have no relevance to athletes that aren't manipulating insulin through injections.

I think that carb selection can have a huge effect on body water balance but it's not insulin dependent by any means.

You will not be able to access them without being a member of the AJCN email me and i will send both as PDF's jesse@sett2win.com One will never be able to eradicate insulin nor would they want to as it is very anabolic as you cite however i disagree that GI/GL has no relavence on fat loss especially when subjects are attempting to get as lean as we do as competitors.

[Rsardinia]

Great season this year Tommy!! Maybe one day I'll share the stage with you. Best of luck in your next season whenever that ends up being. I won't be on stage til 2012.

[zmcdole]

Great season this year Tommy!! Maybe one day I'll share the stage with you. Best of luck in your next season whenever that ends up being. I won't be on stage til 2012.

I can't wait to see what natural bodybuilding has to offer in 2-4 years. It really seems like it's growing in all phases.

[Rsardinia]

I can't wait to see what natural bodybuilding has to offer in 2-4 years. It really seems like it's growing in all phases.

Think so. A lot of guys are getting really into taking their body as far as they can go on their own. Its really fun and I think more guys are catching on to that. There's a lot of young pros too that with a few years off will come back looking awesome.

[JohnBrowne]

You will not be able to access them without being a member of the AJCN email me and i will send both as PDF's jesse@sett2win.com One will never be able to eradicate insulin nor would they want to as it is very anabolic as you cite however i disagree that GI/GL has no relavence on fat loss especially when subjects are attempting to get as lean as we do as competitors.

I'm not aware of any competitors that eat carb sources in insolation in a fasted state.

[SHARK13]

I'm not aware of any competitors that eat carb sources in insolation in a fasted state.

This study referenced in the NSCA Journal has good relavence to the topic at hand:

Infl uence
of high-carbohydrate mixed meals with
diff erent glycemic indexes on substrate
utilization during subsequent exercise
in women. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

CONCLUSION
the total
amount of fat oxidized after the low
glycemic meal was signifi cantly greater
than the amount of fat utilized after the
high glycemic index diet. Based upon
this research it might be concluded that
a low glycemic diet will facilitate the
oxidation of fats during exercise, thus
potentially having a greater impact on
body fat loss.

[AustrianOakJr]

This study referenced in the NSCA Journal has good relavence to the topic at hand:

Infl uence
of high-carbohydrate mixed meals with
diff erent glycemic indexes on substrate
utilization during subsequent exercise
in women. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

CONCLUSION
the total
amount of fat oxidized after the low
glycemic meal was signifi cantly greater
than the amount of fat utilized after the
high glycemic index diet. Based upon
this research it might be concluded that
a low glycemic diet will facilitate the
oxidation of fats during exercise, thus
potentially having a greater impact on
body fat loss.

What was the time frame "after the meal"? Sure, an insulin spike is going to blunt fat burning.....thats not exactly a news flash.....I dont understand how that lends any support to the argument. This is the problem with the whole low glycemic index argument and most of the studies and rationale that surround its support. People fail to view fat loss in the big picture. If my net loss is greater than my net storage, then I am moving in the right direction. Just because carbs are stored now, doesnt mean that they cant be used later on when blood sugar is low......and they will if you are in caloric deficit. If I am in a 500 calorie deficit, I am going to lose my pound per week.......it doesnt matter how many insulin spikes I have in that week......its still a 500 cal deficit. Might I FEEL more hungy on a high GI diet? Probably, but thats a different discussion.

[SHARK13]

What was the time frame "after the meal"? Sure, an insulin spike is going to blunt fat burning.....thats not exactly a news flash.....I dont understand how that lends any support to the argument. This is the problem with the whole low glycemic index argument and most of the studies and rationale that surround its support. People fail to view fat loss in the big picture. If my net loss is greater than my net storage, then I am moving in the right direction. Just because carbs are stored now, doesnt mean that they cant be used later on when blood sugar is low......and they will if you are in caloric deficit. If I am in a 500 calorie deficit, I am going to lose my pound per week.......it doesnt matter how many insulin spikes I have in that week......its still a 500 cal deficit. Might I FEEL more hungy on a high GI diet? Probably, but thats a different discussion.

Read the study for the particulars. Your calories in calories out explanation is very valid and will get you pretty lean however when you are looking to get as lean as Tommy and some of these other pros get EVERY apect counts. Keep in mind that the majority of low glycemic carbohydrates are more nutritious that high glycemic choices (this is a general statement)

[JohnBrowne]

Read the study for the particulars. Your calories in calories out explanation is very valid and will get you pretty lean however when you are looking to get as lean as Tommy and some of these other pros get EVERY apect counts. Keep in mind that the majority of low glycemic carbohydrates are more nutritious that high glycemic choices (this is a general statement)

Are we talking about glycemic index or insulin?

[AustrianOakJr]

What? Type 1 diabetics dont load on 1700g of carbohydrates prior to a show?




Well, you got a LITTLE bit leaner than I did. A "LITTLE".

John Browne......just wondering why you negged me for this post. I have never had a negative reputation point until now. Congrats.

[surfergirl36]

Great log Tommy! Congrats on a great season and a beautiful baby.

I'm in and following along. I appreciate all your insights and knowledge.

[Quelly]

There is some really good discussion in here, and I think if everyone can keep their egos out of it, and just look to learn instead of make points (I'm not referring to anyone specifically) this could become very informative.

I will say right off the bat, that being in a deprived state, and being very lean does some wacky stuff to the body, especially if you had to go low carbs or keto for any significant time frame. When I got to very lean levels, almost every meal I ate gave me ankle edema regardless of food source, I also had a very long road to getting regular stable energy levels back and at a certain point I would get very lethargic after each meal.

I am no where near diabetic, and my experience is obviously not unusual, as Tommy, Sean, many of my clients and many of Tommy's clients have had the same experience.

I also have to say, that if your opinion DOES NOT change over time, you probably aren't learning anymore. And you are being guided by your ego and looking to protect your image and opinion instead of looking to learn. I applaud Tommy for continuing to learn even at the higher levels of competition. Being able to change your mind is a sign of someone not hindered by their own ego and an attribute of successful people in all walks of life. I go into debates and discussions to learn not to win, and I am better for it.

I will say though, that I have had different experiences, I had the hardest graniest look ever, after eating a ton of crap following my last show, where my peak went pretty well, and it was a back load with entirely "clean food" consisting of nut butter, rice cakes, chicken breast and organic jelly. But after pizza, sushi, mac and cheese, there was a point where I looked the graniest and hardest I'd ever had. I saw this again during my reverse diet, during which I maintained contest condition (fully striated glutes) for about 3 weeks while upping food, I had big cheats one day a week, and without fail, after these cheats I looked crazy.

Also, from what I have seen, hard and grainy tends to go hand in hand with being full vs flat.

For example, Layne put up pics from your show Tommy, and at the morning show he looked soft and flat, but his night show pictures he appeared to have a very similar look to yours, hard and grainy.

I wasn't there, and pictures don't tell all, and it's just my opinion based on photos, but I'm not sure if I'm convinced that insulin response and food source dictate the hard and grainy look. And if it does, it may have more to do with glycogen production and food allergies.

Just my thoughts, looking to stimulate some good discussion.

Also...John Browne mentioned that Lyle is of the opinion that keeping insulin as elevated as often as possible during a diet while still losing bodyfat should be the goal, because its anti catabolic effects are superior to its negative effects on fat burning....not surprisingly, Dr Joe is of the exact same opinion and I got to talk to him about this at a seminar. It makes sense, as fat loss is dictated in the end by calorie balance, not the isolated time frames around meals.
Like Sean said, you can store fat at one point of the day, but what really matters is net fat loss.

EDIT
BTW tommy if you feel like this is a hijack, just say so, I'll edit/delete my post and start a thread in the contest prep section

[Cumulonimbus]

Informative, repped on recharge Quelly!

[FATHER FLEX]

Also...John Browne mentioned that Lyle is of the opinion that keeping insulin as elevated as often as possible during a diet while still losing bodyfat should be the goal, because its anti catabolic effects are superior to its negative effects on fat burning....not surprisingly, Dr Joe is of the exact same opinion and I got to talk to him about this at a seminar. It makes sense, as fat loss is dictated in the end by calorie balance, not the isolated time frames around meals.
Like Sean said, you can store fat at one point of the day, but what really matters is net fat loss.

Of all the things you said this one is the biggest one. How elevated? Well that is going to differ greatly, from one individual to the next.

And yeah that chart Joe had was pure brilliance!

[Super Numb]

There is some really good discussion in here, and I think if everyone can keep their egos out of it, and just look to learn instead of make points (I'm not referring to anyone specifically) this could become very informative.

Like Sean said, you can store fat at one point of the day, but what really matters is net fat loss.

Yes, this is an awesome thread to begin with, but now it's even awesome-er.

Ok, your second sentence is interesting. In fact, that one sentence may be the "come full circle" statement!

So with that, in terms of showtime, aren't we all trying to peak at a specific point in time (i.e. at prejudging, etc.)? If so, then the first part of that sentence DOES become the more important matter, which I think Tommy is essentially talking about, right? If so, then I think breaking this stuff down to such isolated issues as specific food sources, and exact (or as exact as possible) timing of food intake, etc. really WOULD matter, and make a difference in truly "peaking".

Isn't it crazy how specific this stuff can get?!?

[Quelly]

Yes, this is an awesome thread to begin with, but now it's even awesome-er.

Ok, your second sentence is interesting. In fact, that one sentence may be the "come full circle" statement!

So with that, in terms of showtime, aren't we all trying to peak at a specific point in time (i.e. at prejudging, etc.)? If so, then the first part of that sentence DOES become the more important matter, which I think Tommy is essentially talking about, right? If so, then I think breaking this stuff down to such isolated issues as specific food sources, and exact (or as exact as possible) timing of food intake, etc. really WOULD matter, and make a difference in truly "peaking".

Isn't it crazy how specific this stuff can get?!?

I think that's a very good point, and probably the one time during a 24 week diet where I think food source, carb source, meal timing, fiber content, electrolytes etc. all matter the most is the final week.

I think I should be more clear that the final week's and especially the final day's approach to nutrition will look very different from the rest of the prep.

[Quelly]

absolutely awesome series, here's part 1, its a long read and in depth, but I guarantee it will rock your world with regards to many common preconceptions on the topic
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

[SHARK13]

absolutely awesome series, here's part 1, its a long read and in depth, but I guarantee it will rock your world with regards to many common preconceptions on the topic
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

Quelly,
Is it your stance that carbohydrate source is irrelavent during a contest preparation? I believe that Tommy was more discriminate in his CHO selection for his most recent preparation and it appeared to have made a very big difference. I think this is what sparked this whole dialogue.

[JohnBrowne]

Quelly,
Is it your stance that carbohydrate source is irrelavent during a contest preparation? I believe that Tommy was more discriminate in his CHO selection for his most recent preparation and it appeared to have made a very big difference. I think this is what sparked this whole dialogue.

What got to me was his "insulin control" talk and then references to the GI... where to start?

[Quelly]

Quelly,
Is it your stance that carbohydrate source is irrelavent during a contest preparation? I believe that Tommy was more discriminate in his CHO selection for his most recent preparation and it appeared to have made a very big difference. I think this is what sparked this whole dialogue.

What got to me was his "insulin control" talk and then references to the GI... where to start?

first off I REALLY recommend reading the full series of articles I posted, most people completely don't understand insulin's role in the body or its relationship, or perceived relationship, with bodyfat storage.

but no that is not my stance that carb source is irrelevant. Satiety, energy levels, fiber intake, micronutrient intake and individual food allergies all directly relate to carb source. And these issues become even more important during a carb load for getting on stage.
Carb source is very important, but not because of its effect on insulin, most of the common attempts at insulin manipulation are misguided and based on a faulty foundation of knowledge or a lack of understanding of endocrinology.

[JohnBrowne]

first off I REALLY recommend reading the full series of articles I posted, most people completely don't understand insulin's role in the body or its relationship, or perceived relationship, with bodyfat storage.

but no that is not my stance that carb source is irrelevant. Satiety, energy levels, fiber intake, micronutrient intake and individual food allergies all directly relate to carb source. And these issues become even more important during a carb load for getting on stage.
Carb source is very important, but not because of its effect on insulin, most of the common attempts at insulin manipulation are misguided and based on a faulty foundation of knowledge or a lack of understanding of endocrinology.

this

[AustrianOakJr]

absolutely awesome series, here's part 1, its a long read and in depth, but I guarantee it will rock your world with regards to many common preconceptions on the topic
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

Funny, I just stumbled upon that web site yesterday. He is good. I loved that article......there was another series on the flaws associated with different methods of bodyfat measurement that was really interesting too.

this

Hey, whenever you can get to it....I asked you a question about those negs. And sent you a PM.

[SHARK13]

this

I missed that, agreed and thank you for posting

[JohnBrowne]

Funny, I just stumbled upon that web site yesterday. He is good. I loved that article......there was another series on the flaws associated with different methods of bodyfat measurement that was really interesting too.



Hey, whenever you can get to it....I asked you a question about those negs. And sent you a PM.

I negged you because I find your posts annoying